[COL, CAR, CHI] Rantanen-Hall to CAR, Necas-Drury-25 2nd-26 4th to COL, Chi 25 3rd to Chi (Ret 50% on Mikko)

[expatriatedtexan]

I respectfully disagree with your post because I think it lacks context and puts a spin on this. 1. No one denies Rants is supremely talented and an elite player or that he racks up points even when he puts out low effort. For the Avs he produced. No question. 2. Nor do I disrespect all that he accomplished in Colorado as a member of the Avs as you ably and rightfully pointed out. Avs don’t win that SC without Rants. He was dominant as a player. I’ll always be grateful to him. 3. But does having Rants make the present team better with all that background? In terms of production? Team/line balance? Cost/value? Etc.? That’s the only relevant question to be addressed and CMac already answered it for the Avs. 4. The part that I don’t get is how we can say we should have bought out EJ and kept Kadri for another run but act like the Avs and their fans owe Rants. If we owed anyone it was EJ and in retrospect I would have bought him out. 5. No.4 reinforces this is a results oriented biz as JB pointed out. CMac’s primary responsibility is to the team and organization and not the individual player. The only real remaining question for me is whether Necas, playing for the Avs, will produce in the POs or disappear? But I suspect the ultimate disparity in points during the entire next RS between Rants and Necas isn’t going to be significant. The other part that people overlook is the player fit aspect under each team’s systems. Rants, despite being an elite player isn’t a natural fit under the Canes’ or Stars’ system with their personnel. Perhaps with the exception of Mitts, Jost and Newhook, skilled players tend to fit in JB’s system. So I’m optimistic about Necas being with the team. Like I said, I think Rants’ talent will inevitably lead to scoring breakout. He’s that exceptional despite the shade people like me are throwing at him. But I will be surprised if Rants reaches the same offensive heights with the Stars that he did with the Avs. If he does then kudos to him. I will always cheer for Rants except to the extent he negatively impacts the Avs. As an Avs fan, I owe him that much.

I was right with you until you mentioned Jost and skilled player in the same sentence.

 

[MacKaRtin]

You can have 1 Rantanen at 12M or you can have 4.8 Miles Woods

And bring them to the game in the short bus

 

[a mangy Meowth]

85-90+ points? Someone teach that boy how to seal the deal and shoot ENGs and pad his stats to superstardom. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist).

 

[flyfysher]

I was right with you until you mentioned Jost and skilled player in the same sentence.

I found a fascinating quote from Sakic from long ago that really seemed to perfectly nail the Avs’ philosophical position. It pertained to the Lindros trade when he was holding out and the Nordiques players were asked their thoughts on it.

We’ve been dancing around searching for the right term to describe Rants’ play the last couple of seasons but they all didn’t quite fit because Rants is NOT truly lazy, lackadaisical, unmotivated or giving low effort or uninspired play.

Here’s a piece I excerpted from Wiki on the Quebec Nordiques.

The Nordiques president publicly announced that they would make Lindros the centrepiece of their franchise turnaround, and refused to trade Lindros, saying that he would not have a career in the NHL as long as he held out. Some of the Nordiques wanted to move on without Lindros, as Joe Sakic commented, "We only want players here who have the passion to play the game. I'm tired of hearing that name. He's not here and there are a lot of others in this locker room who really care about the game."

Think Matt Calvert type passion to play the game hard (I think Calvert should have been recognized for making the Avs a true SC contender. The guy deserved a ring.). Think of superstars like Crosby. It’s not just that he’s incredibly gifted skills wise. It’s that Crosby has a passion to play/compete even on a shitty team. We saw that same passion in the Avs’ SC Final against the Bolts. All those guys on both teams left it out there superstars or not. No, we don’t expect that every second as a player. People are human. But that passion was at their core as players whether they had already won the SC or not. That’s why we watch the SC POs. We saw it in the Four Nations Tournament.

 

[Chiarelli]

Hanzal had the talent and defensive commitment to be a pt/gm two way center with size and physical play. That's my favorite kind of player. That kind of player makes a team so much better in so many ways.

But with all the injuries, and being stuck in Arizona, it just never materialized, and the production just never quite got there.

It's too bad when players never really reach their potential, because of things out of their control.

You’re comparing career high 41 point Hanzal to Barkov right here come on now

 

[Ceremony]

I found a fascinating quote from Sakic from long ago that really seemed to perfectly nail the Avs’ philosophical position. It pertained to the Lindros trade when he was holding out and the Nordiques players were asked their thoughts on it.

We’ve been dancing around searching for the right term to describe Rants’ play the last couple of seasons but they all didn’t quite fit because Rants is NOT truly lazy, lackadaisical, unmotivated or giving low effort or uninspired play.

Here’s a piece I excerpted from Wiki on the Quebec Nordiques.

The Nordiques president publicly announced that they would make Lindros the centrepiece of their franchise turnaround, and refused to trade Lindros, saying that he would not have a career in the NHL as long as he held out. Some of the Nordiques wanted to move on without Lindros, as Joe Sakic commented, "We only want players here who have the passion to play the game. I'm tired of hearing that name. He's not here and there are a lot of others in this locker room who really care about the game."

Think Matt Calvert type passion to play the game hard (I think Calvert should have been recognized for making the Avs a true SC contender. The guy deserved a ring.). Think of superstars like Crosby. It’s not just that he’s incredibly gifted skills wise. It’s that Crosby has a passion to play/compete even on a shitty team. We saw that same passion in the Avs’ SC Final against the Bolts. All those guys on both teams left it out there superstars or not. No, we don’t expect that every second as a player. People are human. But that passion was at their core as players whether they had already won the SC or not. That’s why we watch the SC POs. We saw it in the Four Nations Tournament.

I do like the idea of a team of passion merchants.

 

[flyfysher]

I do like the idea of a team of passion merchants.

Kicking ass and taking names!

 

[Foppa2118]

You’re comparing career high 41 point Hanzal to Barkov right here come on now

Huh? Didn't compare him to anyone, let alone Barkov.

I said, "he had the talent and defensive commitment to be a pt/gm two way center with size and physical play" but the "production just never quite got there."

All of those things are true. He was a talented player, who was 6'6, and played a physical two way game, but his production fell short of what he was capable of, because of injuries, and whatever other reasons.

Maybe he wouldn't have gotten that production anyway though, I don't know. I always felt he underperformed to what he was capable of.

 

[Pokecheque]

Huh? Didn't compare him to anyone, let alone Barkov.

I said, "he had the talent and defensive commitment to be a pt/gm two way center with size and physical play" but the "production just never quite got there."

All of those things are true. He was a talented player, who was 6'6, and played a physical two way game, but his production fell short of what he was capable of, because of injuries, and whatever other reasons.

Maybe he wouldn't have gotten that production anyway though, I don't know. I always felt he underperformed to what he was capable of.

I don't think he was ever given the talent around him to really flourish--he was always asked to do way more than what he actually could. Doesn't mean I think he was a surefire 50-60 pt. player, but IIRC he played a lot of his prime years during the darkest and most uncertain time in the franchise, when they didn't even have a frickin' owner and Bettman was trying (ultimately in vain) to keep the franchise where it was.

You just have to look at their draft history to see how badly they f***ed it up during that rebuild period. Took Blake Wheeler the year before they took him, then Mueller the year after, and then Turris the year after that.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't think he was ever given the talent around him to really flourish--he was always asked to do way more than what he actually could. Doesn't mean I think he was a surefire 50-60 pt. player, but IIRC he played a lot of his prime years during the darkest and most uncertain time in the franchise, when they didn't even have a frickin' owner and Bettman was trying (ultimately in vain) to keep the franchise where it was.

You just have to look at their draft history to see how badly they f***ed it up during that rebuild period. Took Blake Wheeler the year before they took him, then Mueller the year after, and then Turris the year after that.

Yeah, playing on bad teams, with poor linemates, really impacts your production, unless you're an elite player. He played a playmaking style at times too.

And injuries really took a toll on him. Hs first three years he was relatively healthy playing 70-80 games.

But after that his games played were 61, 64, 39, 65, 37, 64, 51, 20, 38, and 7, and he left the NHL around 30 years old.

Maybe he wouldn't have gotten to 80 points I don't know, but he was a talented player. He showed that in spurts. If he had a healthier career, I think he could have been a 70 point type on the right team, with talented linemates.

 

[Vaslof]

People keep saying Necas is perfect fit for the Avs and I'm not debating that but he had higher PPG with the Canes this season than with the Avs.

Also I know he had 9 points last year but he's often seen as someone who fades away in the playoffs, unlike Rantanen. Hopefully this season will tell a different story.

View attachment 1000010

Necas had a 3 point game yesterday. If he has another 3 point game next time we play, he'll be back to matching his pace in Carolina.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

 

[flyfysher]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

Superstar player. GM’s see an opportunity to sign and lock him up and start salivating. They can’t resist.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

They needed an elite goal scorer. Unfortunately for them he didn't fit their system.

 

[The Abusement Park]

They needed an elite goal scorer. Unfortunately for them he didn't fit their system.

Tbf not doing exactly as Rod wants goes pretty heavily against the system and sometimes high skill players need to free wheel a bit.

 

[Pokecheque]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

They desperately need finishing ability, and they know it. I think they figured the rest of the team would do the puck retrievals and he'd just get the passes and fire away at the net.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

Duchene was such a weird player. Henchy and I talked about it once on here. I always felt like Peter Forsberg was one of those few star players who had chemistry with literally anyone you put on his line (much as I love Joe Sakic, I don’t think the same could be said about him). But Matt Duchene was the opposite. He had NO chemistry with Landeskog and when they first paired him with MacKinnon, it was a disaster. Of course when they did it again it worked, probably because they made Duchene play RW the second time around.

He was always a winger, even when he lined up at center, he played like a winger. That’s probably why he did best with wingers who could play center (Fleischmann, O’Reilly, Mueller, even Galiardi). But it was still weird how some linemates didn’t click with him at all. Won’t be surprised if he and Mikko don’t match up either but I haven’t watched him play in a long, long time.

Best lines I remember for Dutchy here was: Fleischmann/Duchene/Mueller, and O'Reilly/Duchene/Parenteau Otherwise, it was always season after season of trying to find the right guys to play with him, and long droughts of not scoring.

 

[Pokecheque]

Best lines I remember for Dutchy here was: Fleischmann/Duchene/Mueller, and O'Reilly/Duchene/Parenteau Otherwise, it was always season after season of trying to find the right guys to play with him, and long droughts of not scoring.

Yep. Even Dallas kinda picked up on that and snagged Mikael Granlund, who's a quasi center/winger himself. I guess they clicked when they were linemates in Nashville too.

I'm old enough to remember when the Avs finally seemed to be putting together a legit top line with Galiardi-Duchene-Stewart, and Sacco quickly swapped out Duchene for Stastny, and people on here got pissed.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

That 2014 team had a couple of good lines

Landy/Staz/Mack
ROR/Dutchy/PAP

 

[The Moops]

That 2014 team had a couple of good lines

Landy/Staz/Mack
ROR/Dutchy/PAP

That first round playoff was so much fun at the time, but PAP is one of those guys who can only score when he's on a bad team.

 

[Vaslof]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

He was available. Even with how it worked out they got two 1sts, a prospect and a roster player out of it. Which isn't ideal but it's better than for example Necas for Mittelstadt.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Carolina didn't appreciate Necas. They value those who can grind it out in the corners and play structured Rod the bod hockey.

My real question is why they went after Rantanen? He doesn't play their brand of hockey at all. Did they not scout the player or what.

I'm not sure I will ever understand the Mikko and Carolina thing. Seems like it's been a year or two of people saying that if he didn't stay here, Carolina would be a great landing spot for him. What was all that chatter about? Was it simply because Mikko enjoys playing with other Fins and they have Aho?

 

[The Merchant]

The breakup is complete

 

[Tommy Shelby]

The breakup is complete

He'll spend the next few years stalking their page