Proposal: Vancouver: Boeser + 2017 1st round for a 20-22 year old "Top" center or defenseman

[Rey]

If you want success, you need a core group of players. You can have the best player in the league on the squad and surely he'll help, but it won't matter if you can't get anyone to play with him.

The Canucks are not in a position to make that deal. Do you see any depth on this team? Say you hypothetically get Nathan MacKinnon. Then what? Whats on this team? Colorado has much more depth. Wheres the Canuck's Landeskog? Duchene? Rantanen? The Twins are on the end of their careers and all the team has is Bo Horvat. Team's drafting and development has been garbage for the past decade. Players have no reason to sign here unless it's a massive over payment, and even then, top players rarely get to free agency day. So, say you get Mackinnon or whoever? Than what? The team will still suck.

Team should be more concerned with properly developing their prospects and building around them. Time flies and Bo Horvat is 21. It sounds great and all, but whats happening on the team? What is there to look forward to? Absolutely nothing. This team won't be competitive until the Twins are gone, and that's another few years off Horvats career. Development time for prospect will take even more years off. Lots have to go right for everything to fall in place. Pretty sure, people are still unsure what Horvat is going to be. Even if he exceeds all expectation and becomes everything you hope him to be, then you have to hope that he is on this team for the long haul. By the time the Canucks are starting to get competitive, Horvat could be a UFA. Then what? You literally have to pray to god and hope he is a loyal guy, and if he's not, then you have to start all over. Lets bring up Mackinnon thing again. He has a 7 year deal. Sounds good? Okay, well you have no prospects, so you have to spend years losing to get those lottery picks again or get lucky and draft guys that end up being good. The team has nothing of value as it is, so you can't even do the trade route. You're only two options is to sign free agents and draft. Both options that look very doom and gloom.

 

[schenneuf]

No team is going to trade you such a C or D for that package. You're going to have to wait until at least after the lotto before a team would even consider something like that. And at that point, where is your 1st exactly? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th?

Right now you might get a Reinhart at the very most. If you end up with a top-3 pick post-lotto, I still don't see Colorado offering MacKinnon. They'd rather trade him for a player around the same age if they were to even contemplate trading him. So at that point, you're better off just selecting the best C you can wherever you land.

 

[Horse McHindu]

If you want success, you need a core group of players. You can have the best player in the league on the squad and surely he'll help, but it won't matter if you can't get anyone to play with him.

True. My argument is this however. Once you have those 'core group' of players, you will then attract other pieces via UFA signings, etc. Establish the core first, and then the depth will come later.

The Canucks are not in a position to make that deal. Do you see any depth on this team? Say you hypothetically get Nathan MacKinnon. Then what? Whats on this team?

In a hypothetical situation where we get MacKinnon (for Boeser and 2017 1st), our future core would be as follows:

Center: Mackinnon, Horvat (good 1-2 punch at center for many years)
Defense: Juolevi (potential 1st pairing defenseman......possible franchise d-man)
Goaltending: Demko or Markstrom (one of these guys should develop into a top tier goalie. I see Demko becoming as good as Corey Schneider).

So, in terms of a future CORE, I would argue that the Canucks would be set in 2 of 3 different areas (goaltending, plus center).

Guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, Hutton, Stetcher, Virtanen, Tryamkin, Baertschi, and Rodin could round out that core, and the Canucks could add some significant UFA's to that mix.

The key for me however, is either getting a heir apparent to Henrik, and getting another young top pairing D that can play with Olli Juolevi in the future. Once you have those two pieces in-tact, I believe the depth can be more easily obtained via UFA, etc.

1) Trade green house prospects for red hotels at Center and Defense Any combination of 2017 1st overall, Boeser, Virtanen, Rodin, Hutton, Stetcher, Tryamkin, and Baertschi can be used to 'upgrade' at Center and/or Defense.

2) Continue to gradually trade/phase out vets for younger talents/picks

3) Fill in the gaps with UFA.

 

[Horse McHindu]

No team is going to trade you such a C or D for that package. You're going to have to wait until at least after the lotto before a team would even consider something like that. And at that point, where is your 1st exactly? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th?

Right now you might get a Reinhart at the very most. If you end up with a top-3 pick post-lotto, I still don't see Colorado offering MacKinnon. They'd rather trade him for a player around the same age if they were to even contemplate trading him. So at that point, you're better off just selecting the best C you can wherever you land.

If Colorado wouldn't be willing to trade MacKinnon for that package, then I'd seriously look at Trouba.

Boeser and a 1st for Trouba (and if that's overkill on Vancouver's end, Vancouver can obviously reduce the offer. Cap wise, Canucks throw in someone else to make it work?).

In the future, the Canucks could have Juolevi-Trouba as their top pairing.

Canucks could then look at moving Tanev for help up front.

 

[Rey]

True. My argument is this however. Once you have those 'core group' of players, you will then attract other pieces via UFA signings, etc. Establish the core first, and then the depth will come later.



In a hypothetical situation where we get MacKinnon (for Boeser and 2017 1st), our future core would be as follows:

Center: Mackinnon, Horvat (good 1-2 punch at center for many years)
Defense: Juolevi (potential 1st pairing defenseman......possible franchise d-man)
Goaltending: Demko or Markstrom (one of these guys should develop into a top tier goalie. I see Demko becoming as good as Corey Schneider).

So, in terms of a future CORE, I would argue that the Canucks would be set in 2 of 3 different areas (goaltending, plus center).

Guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, Hutton, Stetcher, Virtanen, Tryamkin, Baertschi, and Rodin could round out that core, and the Canucks could add some significant UFA's to that mix.

The key for me however, is either getting a heir apparent to Henrik, and getting another young top pairing D that can play with Olli Juolevi in the future. Once you have those two pieces in-tact, I believe the depth can be more easily obtained via UFA, etc.

1) Trade green house prospects for red hotels at Center and Defense Any combination of 2017 1st overall, Boeser, Virtanen, Rodin, Hutton, Stetcher, Tryamkin, and Baertschi can be used to 'upgrade' at Center and/or Defense.

2) Continue to gradually trade/phase out vets for younger talents/picks

3) Fill in the gaps with UFA.

That's a terrible core. Generally, core aren't made up by 2 forwards, 1 defense man, and a goaltender. There are no signs Juolevi will even be a 1st pair defense man at this point.

 

[Rey]

If Colorado wouldn't be willing to trade MacKinnon for that package, then I'd seriously look at Trouba.

Boeser and a 1st for Trouba (and if that's overkill on Vancouver's end, Vancouver can obviously reduce the offer. Cap wise, Canucks throw in someone else to make it work?).

In the future, the Canucks could have Juolevi-Trouba as their top pairing.

Canucks could then look at moving Tanev for help up front.

Honestly, you aren't getting MacKinnon but trading for Trouba makes absolutely no sense. Trouba simply isn't as good as you think he is, neither is Juolevi. Plus, who the hell is going to score for the Canucks..ever? These guys literally have to turn into franchise guys for your "plan" to work out. Neither of them look like franchise guys. Both look like second pair defense man. Could they be better? Maybe, i guess? but generally when you say potential, you see glimpse of those attributes that could push them over the top, and nothing stands out for either guy, so when you are saying Juolevi has franchise defense man potential? Well...where exactly are you seeing this? Perhaps if the Canucks had drafted Sergachev..maybe you could say he looks like he can skate like the wind and elite offensive ability or maybe even Chychrun, who actually made the Coyotes team. Instead, they drafted Juolevi who doesn't stand out at all. Sure, if it was the NHL, maybe you could make it into a positive that he doesn't stand out and do a lot of things well, but he's in junior. He's been disappointing cause he's in junior and he isn't showing the elite skills a top pick should show. When, people look on the bright side and bring up that he's a London Knight, and they've developed a lot of good defense man as a positive. That should be very concerning for you. Praised for his Hockey IQ ? Sound familiar to several of past busts in the organization? Not saying he's a bust, but I don't think anyone thinks or sees franchise potential.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

1) Trade green house prospects for red hotels at Center and Defense Any combination of 2017 1st overall, Boeser, Virtanen, Rodin, Hutton, Stetcher, Tryamkin, and Baertschi can be used to 'upgrade' at Center and/or Defense.

2) Continue to gradually trade/phase out vets for younger talents/picks

3) Fill in the gaps with UFA.

As far as #3 goes, I think you are trying to skirt the full rebuild, and re-tool on the fly, which seems to have been the Canucks problem for some time now - and if it hasn't been a problem before, it certainly would constitute one now IMO. As for #1, it feels like you have fallen in love with your Monopoly metaphor at the expense of seeing clearly what is the better option IMO. I think the below is exactly the way to go for you guys:

IMO the timing right now is the best they might get.

Go full scorched earth. Package the Sedins and retain 50% on one of them and trade them for picks, prospects and most likely a major cap dump coming back. Trade Eriksson as fast as possible for a first and prospect. Deal Miller for whatever you can get for him.
Keep Virtanen down in Utica. Look for any and all ways to take on short term cap for assets like Arizona has done recently. Likely look for new front office staff as well, but that is for another post.
Tank hard this season and aim for a bottom finish. Hope you get a top 3 pick and take one of this years top C's (Patrick, Hischier or Vilardi) or Dman (Liljegren). Use any and all other assets to stack 1st to 3rd round picks for 2018 (it's a deep draft).
Really go after Dahlin next year if you get a C, if you get a D go for one of the C's or Svechnikov or someone on a similar level.
A core of Sutter, Granlund, Tanev, Horvat, Gaunce, Hutton, Boeser, Virtanen, Juolevi and Demko are who you build around. Everyone else is trade bait for the rebuild.
.

 

[jimmythescot]

With the recent Evander Kane rumours, glancing at the thread title on mobile nearly gave me a heart attack.

 

[CanadienShark]

I don't think the Nucks should make that trade for Trouba. MacKinnon could be interesting, but I'm still not sure the Nucks do it. Same with the Avs or Jets for that matter. Avs are more likely. They'd just give up on the year, pick up a likely very good winger in Boeser and hope like crazy that they win the Patrick pick with theirs or Vancouver's selection.

 

[schenneuf]

True. My argument is this however. Once you have those 'core group' of players, you will then attract other pieces via UFA signings, etc. Establish the core first, and then the depth will come later.



In a hypothetical situation where we get MacKinnon (for Boeser and 2017 1st), our future core would be as follows:

Center: Mackinnon, Horvat (good 1-2 punch at center for many years)
Defense: Juolevi (potential 1st pairing defenseman......possible franchise d-man)
Goaltending: Demko or Markstrom (one of these guys should develop into a top tier goalie. I see Demko becoming as good as Corey Schneider).

So, in terms of a future CORE, I would argue that the Canucks would be set in 2 of 3 different areas (goaltending, plus center).

Guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, Hutton, Stetcher, Virtanen, Tryamkin, Baertschi, and Rodin could round out that core, and the Canucks could add some significant UFA's to that mix.

The key for me however, is either getting a heir apparent to Henrik, and getting another young top pairing D that can play with Olli Juolevi in the future. Once you have those two pieces in-tact, I believe the depth can be more easily obtained via UFA, etc.

1) Trade green house prospects for red hotels at Center and Defense Any combination of 2017 1st overall, Boeser, Virtanen, Rodin, Hutton, Stetcher, Tryamkin, and Baertschi can be used to 'upgrade' at Center and/or Defense.

2) Continue to gradually trade/phase out vets for younger talents/picks

3) Fill in the gaps with UFA.

Franchise #1C's that have been traded:
In the last 11 years, only 2 franchise #1C's have been traded (Thornton, 2005 and Seguin, 2013).

Good #2C's that have been traded:
O'Reilly, 2016
Johansen, 2016
Zibanejad, 2016
Anisimov, 2015
Kesler, 2014
Stastny, 2014
Spezza, 2014
J. Staal, 2012
Carter, 2011, then again in 2012

Out of all those #2C's traded, not a single one would move the needle for Vancouver. They are simply just lacking too much talent. Seguin? Of course, he would change any team's outlook. Same for prime Thornton. O'Reilly wouldn't suddenly change you from a bottom-dwellar to a contender, or even a playoff team.

Now take a look at this:

#1C's who've been drafted and developed:
Crosby/Malkin
Backstrom/Kuznetsov
Toews
McDavid
Tavares
Stamkos/Johnson (signed)
Scheifele
Bergeron/Krejci
Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Barkov
Eichel
Matthews
Getzlaf
Kopitar
Giroux
Pavelski/Couture
MacKinnon
Monahan
M. Koivu
H. Sedin
E. Staal (won a cup with team that drafted him)
Lecavalier (won a cup with team that drafted him)

= ALL DRAFTED BY THEIR OWN TEAM!!!

The point is, your idea is simply nuts. Vancouver needs to draft one of Patrick, Vilardi, Hischier, Andersson, Pettersson, Mittelstadt, Rasmussen or Poehling and hope they turn into a #1C. Patience is required. A foreign word to Aquilini I'm sure.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

That's the conventional line of thought and is more or less what the Canucks will likely do.

Here's the thing though: Just because a team does poorly during the regular season, doesn't necessarily mean they will draft Top 2 given the new lottery system. The Canucks saw first hand this past summer as to what the lottery system can do (i.e. finish 28th overall, draft 5th).

Obviously, 1C and 1D's can be drafted anywhere in the draft, but the logic behind this proposal is....

1) Paying for a higher guarantee (i.e. trading green houses for a red hotel).
2) Speeding up the rebuilding process slightly (i.e. young players extremely close to entering their prime), while still becoming significantly younger as a whole. For instance - would you not consider a guy like Nathan MacKinnon to be a terrific young asset for a rebuilding team?

I think the problem was drafting Olli Joulevi at 5th..

 

[Flair Hay]

Rebuilds don't go well when you try to give up two big pieces for one really big one. You end up getting hosed in the end.

Reality is you keep having to be a losing team until you have a top pick or two.

Keep Boeser, and the 2017 1st. Use the pick this year. It may end up being more valuable than Trouba or MacKinnon. Neither guy is a guaranteed franchise player either.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Franchise #1C's that have been traded:
In the last 11 years, only 2 franchise #1C's have been traded (Thornton, 2005 and Seguin, 2013).

Fair enough. However - I'm not suggesting that the Canucks could land a FRANCHISE center for Boeser and a 1st. I'm suggesting more along the lines of a '1A' type (which I think MacKinnon fits under). That's why in my subject heading, I deliberately used the word 'Top end' C or D instead of 'Franchise.' Trouba, same thing. The guy's not a franchise defenseman by any stretch, but will likely be a top pairing defenseman for most of his career.

Good #2C's that have been traded:
O'Reilly, 2016
Johansen, 2016

Good research on your end. Out of the list you provided, O'Reilly and Johansen would be the only two that I'd have interest in, given their age. However - I wouldn't move Boeser and a 1st for those guys. On the flip side, those teams likely wouldn't accept anything less than that.

Out of all those #2C's traded, not a single one would move the needle for Vancouver.

True, but the Canucks shouldn't be looking to 'move any needles' at this point. What they should be doing, in my opinion, is drafting/acquiring top core players that will lead this team into the next generation.

However - instead of tanking, hoping, and praying for a high end prospect, I'd rather see the Canucks trade for one, even if said prospect is not the next Connor McDavid or Erik Karlsson.

-Make this type of trade now, and continue to emphasize to the current kids in the system that tanking is not acceptable and that we're trying to be competitive right now (i.e. maybe not winning a cup right now, but atleast making the playoffs).

Now take a look at this:

#1C's who've been drafted and developed:
Crosby/Malkin
Backstrom/Kuznetsov
Toews
McDavid
Tavares
Stamkos/Johnson (signed)
Scheifele
Bergeron/Krejci
Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Barkov
Eichel
Matthews
Getzlaf
Kopitar
Giroux
Pavelski/Couture
MacKinnon
Monahan
M. Koivu
H. Sedin
E. Staal (won a cup with team that drafted him)
Lecavalier (won a cup with team that drafted him)

= ALL DRAFTED BY THEIR OWN TEAM!!!

The point is, your idea is simply nuts. Vancouver needs to draft one of Patrick, Vilardi, Hischier, Andersson, Pettersson, Mittelstadt, Rasmussen or Poehling and hope they turn into a #1C. Patience is required. A foreign word to Aquilini I'm sure.

That's the word that I dislike however. Hope. Instead of hoping, I'd rather the Canucks make a move right now and still get someone young, good, and a little closer to hitting their peak. That way, you don't give the current young players on the team the idea that its acceptable to tank.

On that list you created, many of those teams spent YEARS as bottom feeders before finally 'striking oil' in the draft. I think it goes without saying that many of those bottom feeding teams, did not hit home-runs on many of their draft picks.

 

[Goulet17]

Colorado is not trading Mackinnon for Boeser and a first round pick. No matter how you view Mackinnon, it seems pretty clear that Colorado views him as their franchise player that they are building around.

That trade proposal is the kind in which everyone in Colorado's management loses their job if they make it.

 

[chatty4756]

Ok im going to be the guy that brings it up, this would have shades of the phil kessel deal all over it and look how that turned out basically it turned out kessel for dougie hamilton and tyler seguin. you can trade that 1st round pick but with the way the canucks are trending, its going to be top 5. have patience and stock pile prospects. if done right the canucks could be trending upwards in 2 years and have a run as a contender in 3 or 4.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Rebuilds don't go well when you try to give up two big pieces for one really big one. You end up getting hosed in the end.

Is that really the case however? Can you cite specific examples?

One famous Canuck example that I can think of (i.e. trading two big pieces for one really big one), was the drafting of the Sedins'. We traded McCabe + a future 1st round pick to move up in the 1999 draft.

Reality is you keep having to be a losing team until you have a top pick or two.

The problem with this model is that it's VERY tough to ascend from a bottom feeding team to an elite team again. Over the past 10-15 years for instance, you'll notice that many different teams in the NHL have been bottom feeders/non-playoff teams for very large stretches at a time.

The reality is that even with a top pick or two, an ascension back to respectability could still be a long ways away.

That's one of the reasons why I'd be willing to trade for young pieces NOW (that are further along the path and have more of a 'guarantee' to be a Top 6/Top 4, even if it means possibly trading away a Top pick). Maintain a competitive team now AND continue to get younger, etc.

Keep Boeser, and the 2017 1st. Use the pick this year. It may end up being more valuable than Trouba or MacKinnon.

True, but it also might not be........even if the Canucks completely tank this year, get lucky in the lottery, and draft high. Why not try and be competitive this year (i.e. make the playoffs), AND trade two big pieces a large piece that could help us both short term AND long term?

 

[Paulinvancouver]

Vancouver: Boeser + 2017 1st overall for a 20-22 year old "Top" center or defenseman

If you subscribe to the theory that

1) A franchise center or franchise defenseman is more important than a franchise winger

2) It's ok to trade 'green houses' for a guaranteed 'red hotel' even if there's a good chance that one or some of the green houses become red hotels themselves (not guaranteed mind you),

Then perhaps my idea of the Canucks packaging Boeser + 2017 1st overall has some kind of merit.

Brock Boeser will likely become a very good NHL player, but again, no guarantees. Given where the Canucks are projected to finish in the standings, there's a solid chance that the Canucks end up drafting in the bottom 3, but again, no guarantees. And obviously, the further away you move from the bottom 3, the less likely it is that your draftee becomes an NHL star.

Team trading for Brock Boeser and a 2017 1st overall:

Realistic best case scenario: Boeser becomes a bona-fide Top 6 forward, while the 2017 1st overall becomes a Top 6 FWD or Top 4 defenseman.

Worst case scenario: Both bust.


What the Canucks get:

A 20-22 year old Center or defenseman that is all but guaranteed to be a Top pairing defenseman or Top line Center. Whether they pan out to be franchise players however, is still questionable.

The guys I have in mind by the way are Nathan MacKinnon and Jacob Trouba........or someone within that range.

My personal belief is that a rebuilding team (such as the Canucks) biggest priority should be in solidifying their future center position and/or defense BEFORE adding to their wings. The Canucks are seemingly set in net with one of Demko and Markstrom, but are in dire need of a future Henrik Sedin replacement.

Having a good young defenseman to possibly complement Olli Juolevi would also be a huge plus. Also - if the Canucks brought in Trouba, you could then look to move Tanev for a Top 6 forward.

Are you TRYING to ruin our team?

 

[Jumptheshark]

Our first round pick is very likely to be a high pick. So why throw away a solid prospect, plus that high pick, for a player similar to one that we'd more than likely be drafting anyway? Makes zero sense.

The ask for. A TOP C or D right now and nor in 5 years. TEAMS won't be giving away that player away for a puck and a prospect. Both are unknown quantities right now

 

[VanJack]

There are no 20-22 year-olds guarantied to be No. 1 centres who could be acquired via a trade.....the only way to get one, is to draft one. Canucks keep their pick and try to hit a home-run.

 

[Poochie_D]

I would not make a move like that if I'm Vancouver. Forget Boeser, that first will likely be a top 3 pick. Might be the year to move the Sedins though!

 

[PredsForPresidents]

Canucks should be adding picks and prospects, not trading them. Edler+17' 2nd for another mid-low lottery 1st is what I think they should be doing.

 

[Hunter368]

Brock is a decent prospect but not amazing either, but the Jets don't need any more wingers......we have too many now. Jets don't need more picks.

OP of Brock & 1st Rd pick won't interest the Jets in the least as a return for Trouba. Easy pass IMO

 

[93LEAFS]

Brock is a decent prospect but not amazing either, but the Jets don't need any more wingers......we have too many now. Jets don't need more picks.

OP of Brock & 1st Rd pick won't interest the Jets in the least as a return for Trouba. Easy pass IMO

The offer is 1st overall. I can't see you guys keeping someone who you used leverage to force back to the team when you could get local boy Nolan Patrick (assuming his health issues this year aren't long term). It would be insane to turn that down. You could probably package some of your wingers (Boeser, Connor, Dano, etc) and Little for a quality LHD.

 

[Bone Breaker]

after the season and lottery are done, if the pick is guaranteed to be #1 or #2 overall, I`d do it Mackinnon for Boeser and the pick.

 

[Ducks in a row]

How many teams would trade a young #1C or #1D or #2D for a random pick and a winger prospect? Unless it is a team that has such a player who wants to be traded it will be hard pressed to get a team to accept that for the young top player.