USL votes for relegation

[LadyStanley]

Promotion-relegation is coming to U.S. soccer (though not MLS). Will it 'reshape' the sport?

The USL, which currently operates second- and third-tier leagues, says it will launch a new USL Division One and create "an interconnected three-tiered men’s professional soccer system" with pro-rel.

sports.yahoo.com

But not MLS

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Promotion-relegation is coming to U.S. soccer (though not MLS). Will it 'reshape' the sport?

The USL, which currently operates second- and third-tier leagues, says it will launch a new USL Division One and create "an interconnected three-tiered men’s professional soccer system" with pro-rel.

sports.yahoo.com

But not MLS

I think you mean "relegation" and not "regulation"

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I think you mean "relegation" and not "regulation"

Or it's an abstract thought...like the league will regularly shit out the worst teams.


I mean, awesome. It's seemingly the only way Pittsburgh will ever get a shot at anything other than the USLC equivalent. This beats the ever-loving shit out of the MLS's model of throwing as many teams as possible into one league and wondering why nobody watches when Lionel Messi isn't involved. I f***ing hate that the NHL seems to be adopting that mindset too, but I digress.

Oh, plus I refuse to get Apple TV, so following the MLS is significantly more difficult than numerous leagues on the other side of the f***ing globe now.

US soccer isn't set-up for this system and even under the best of circumstances there's going to be growing pains, but the sport is healthy enough in the US now that the training wheels need to come off.

 

[Hoek]

I think pro/rel can work at this minor league level where the disparity in finances isn't quite as large and owners aren't spending $500m just to buy a franchise, but not sure it has much relevance to MLS. We'll see how interesting the battles get, and also whether there might be rules that get in the way of teams actually moving up (stadium size, payroll etc). If a lot of promoted teams actually can't accept the offer, then it's all kind of moot.

 

[PCSPounder]

I think pro/rel can work at this minor league level where the disparity in finances isn't quite as large and owners aren't spending $500m just to buy a franchise, but not sure it has much relevance to MLS. We'll see how interesting the battles get, and also whether there might be rules that get in the way of teams actually moving up (stadium size, payroll etc). If a lot of promoted teams actually can't accept the offer, then it's all kind of moot.

There’s an irony among English clubs I have found. You would expect most clubs to pull a Darlington… build a 25,000-capacity stadium and shoot for the moon. That act (and the owner in general) bankrupted Darlington.

So you’ll get fans who complain that their owner isn’t investing enough, and not everyone draws well. But it seems more fans than not know not to pull a Darlington.

Now… can you be a Bournemouth? Make smart investments in players and hew to a style? All this in a stadium that held almost 12,000, then when they won promotion to the Premier League, actually shaved a few hundred seats? Be disciplined in your approach and it can work out.

Now… USL has 24 teams in the Championship and 14 teams in League One. Championship had 24 last year, Memphis folded, and USL chose to elevate Lexington SC (did not make the playoffs in 2024, but whose stadium opened last October) from USL1. Meanwhile, USL1 was going to add 6 teams in 2025… but Northern Colorado was forced out, Central Valley folded or suspended, and since Lexington went up, USL1 brought in 5 while Santa Barbara bought the rights to Memphis and therefore will join Championship in 2026 along with Brooklyn FC. Championship has western and eastern conferences, meaning better travel when USL1 is flying from Spokane to Southwestern Florida to Maine to the California high desert this year. To make this work better, USL1 needs much tighter regional subdivisions, meaning way more teams. It needs to be a pyramid, especially in this country. That’s the real trick, and that won’t be easy to achieve. That is, if they actually carry through with pro/rel.

 

[KevFu]

I love it.

I think this is the biggest reason why MLS is an afterthought among US soccer fans.

In all the other sports, you either live in a market with a team in the highest league, or you pick a team usually based on TV. The leagues carved up all the land so everyone has a "home team" regardless of how close you are.

So the Islanders and Mets are my teams because I got SportsChannel New York... seven hours away from NYC. (I still haven't been to UBS or CitiField yet!).

But in soccer, MLS isn't the highest league I can watch on TV. So what's the difference between NYCFC seven hours away... or Manchester City 13 hours away? One is an elite team and one isn't.

I hope this presents a serious issue to MLS where the USL popularity surges and MLS decides to join the pyramid.

 

[DaveG]

I love it.

I think this is the biggest reason why MLS is an afterthought among US soccer fans.

In all the other sports, you either live in a market with a team in the highest league, or you pick a team usually based on TV. The leagues carved up all the land so everyone has a "home team" regardless of how close you are.

So the Islanders and Mets are my teams because I got SportsChannel New York... seven hours away from NYC. (I still haven't been to UBS or CitiField yet!).

But in soccer, MLS isn't the highest league I can watch on TV. So what's the difference between NYCFC seven hours away... or Manchester City 13 hours away? One is an elite team and one isn't.

I hope this presents a serious issue to MLS where the USL popularity surges and MLS decides to join the pyramid.

I mean the biggest reason is that the league right now is artificially keeping the wage bill low which inevitably means that the league can't really compete with Europe's top dozen or so leagues in terms of roster construction. For the first 15-20 years of MLS's existence a cap was needed just for stability. It's now at the point where things are stable and if Atlanta, LAFC, Miami, or even smaller markets like Charlotte want to throw around even more money, as long as they're keeping up with FFP, let them.

 

[KevFu]

I mean the biggest reason is that the league right now is artificially keeping the wage bill low which inevitably means that the league can't really compete with Europe's top dozen or so leagues in terms of roster construction. For the first 15-20 years of MLS's existence a cap was needed just for stability. It's now at the point where things are stable and if Atlanta, LAFC, Miami, or even smaller markets like Charlotte want to throw around even more money, as long as they're keeping up with FFP, let them.

Do we even HAVE the FFP rules in CONCACAF? You only hear about it in UEFA. Maybe we do.

Eventually the US is going to have to shift to the world calendar. Even if MLS teams removed the cap and started spending freely like the rest of the world, you're just not getting anyone to leave Europe in the spring and play through the summer with no time off; or they're going to take from May to March off.

 

[PCSPounder]

Also posting this in the LV Lights thread. Speak of the devil, Eric Wynalda used to coach them. Too much optimism in his going off here, perhaps, and this may give KevFu too much satisfaction. But it prompts questions that many here should ponder.

 

[KevFu]

Too much optimism in his going off here, perhaps, and this may give KevFu too much satisfaction. But it prompts questions that many here should ponder.

Heh heh.
What does the Japan league do?

I don't think PRO/REL is "the answer" that he thinks it is. What it is REALLY, is a "niche" that you can sell that all your North American sports competition CAN'T.

And you need that niche desperately, because what your North American competition CAN sell is "We're the best league in the world" and no soccer league in US/CAN can sell that.

I don't see it as "PRO/REL is going to make the soccer better." I think PRO/REL is going to make more total people care about BAD soccer MORE.

Carving up our two countries into 32 TV slices like the "best leagues in the world" do, when you're not the best league in the world does not give anyone much reason to care at all.

I think the desired end-goal would be a VERY LARGE "MLS" as the top league, regional, with playoffs (and an Open Cup)... because the way to ensure that thirty-two $500m INVESTMENTS/MLS franchises don't go down is to make the top level 40, 48, 64 teams even, with smaller market franchises taking turns going up and coming down.

You get the excitement of "expansion teams" in a new markets, every year. Rochester, Richmond, Harrisburg, Cary, Charleston, Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach.... they aren't big enough to go toe-to-toe with LA, NYC, Miami and Philadelphia every year. But give us ONE SEASON with the big boys and then we'll go back down and keep trying to get back.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I don't see it as "PRO/REL is going to make the soccer better." I think PRO/REL is going to make more total people care about BAD soccer MORE.

Carving up our two countries into 32 TV slices like the "best leagues in the world" do, when you're not the best league in the world does not give anyone much reason to care at all.

And this is probably the area we lag behind everyone else in the most. There's no seat for the minnows at the table here, which means the sport grows much more slowly where top-flight teams aren't.

Few people in Pittsburgh give a shit about the Riverhounds because they're a minor league team in a major league city. Pro/Rel gives that franchise a hope of being vaguely relevant in that market, at least when they're good. It'd certainly give me a reason to occasionally watch them that doesn't exist right now.

Look at most fans in Europe or South America. They have the local team playing down the pyramid that they follow and the big team that they root for. That's not really a thing here.

 

[KevFu]

And this is probably the area we lag behind everyone else in the most. There's no seat for the minnows at the table here, which means the sport grows much more slowly where top-flight teams aren't.

Few people in Pittsburgh give a shit about the Riverhounds because they're a minor league team in a major league city. Pro/Rel gives that franchise a hope of being vaguely relevant in that market, at least when they're good. It'd certainly give me a reason to occasionally watch them that doesn't exist right now.

Look at most fans in Europe or South America. They have the local team playing down the pyramid that they follow and the big team that they root for. That's not really a thing here.

Right, and midway through the Riverhounds being "top of the table" and the potential to go ALL the way up, the bandwagon would massively grow.

You'd have people coming out of the woodwork... waving** their terrible towel for the soccer team now.

The team being like "if we go up, we should at least have our home opener in Heinz" (or whatever it's called now), and MAYBE with the money from that, the team stays up for a few years. Maybe not. And late in a later season, when you're 19th in the east and clearly going down, the stands are empty again.

But having that bandwagon fan swell for a year and a half, that would be GOOD FOR BUSINESS in soccer as a whole. SOME of those bandwagon jumpers would never hop off.

 

[varsaku]

And this is probably the area we lag behind everyone else in the most. There's no seat for the minnows at the table here, which means the sport grows much more slowly where top-flight teams aren't.

Few people in Pittsburgh give a shit about the Riverhounds because they're a minor league team in a major league city. Pro/Rel gives that franchise a hope of being vaguely relevant in that market, at least when they're good. It'd certainly give me a reason to occasionally watch them that doesn't exist right now.

Look at most fans in Europe or South America. They have the local team playing down the pyramid that they follow and the big team that they root for. That's not really a thing here.

Right, and midway through the Riverhounds being "top of the table" and the potential to go ALL the way up, the bandwagon would massively grow.

You'd have people coming out of the woodwork... waving** their terrible towel for the soccer team now.

The team being like "if we go up, we should at least have our home opener in Heinz" (or whatever it's called now), and MAYBE with the money from that, the team stays up for a few years. Maybe not. And late in a later season, when you're 19th in the east and clearly going down, the stands are empty again.

But having that bandwagon fan swell for a year and a half, that would be GOOD FOR BUSINESS in soccer as a whole. SOME of those bandwagon jumpers would never hop off.

1. I think you overestimate the interest people will have in bad soccer. Look at attendance of lower table teams at multiple leagues around the world. They are abysmal. US/Can will not be any different especially with more competition with other sports. Fans are not really as loyal as other parts of the world.
2.This model will ensure only a few teams dominate year after year. Teams from NY and LA will have all the financial power to consistently put together great teams to crush others. That is the same thing that goes on in every league around the world. The main thing that drives interest in the Big 4 sports in NA is the fact your team has a chance or will eventually.
3. US/CAN being so large will face instance where huge swaths of the country will not have teams in the first division. Look at the Bundesliga, they have historically had very few teams from the eastern half in the top division until RB Leipzig.

 

[KevFu]

1. I think you overestimate the interest people will have in bad soccer. Look at attendance of lower table teams at multiple leagues around the world. They are abysmal. US/Can will not be any different especially with more competition with other sports. Fans are not really as loyal as other parts of the world.
2.This model will ensure only a few teams dominate year after year. Teams from NY and LA will have all the financial power to consistently put together great teams to crush others. That is the same thing that goes on in every league around the world. The main thing that drives interest in the Big 4 sports in NA is the fact your team has a chance or will eventually.
3. US/CAN being so large will face instance where huge swaths of the country will not have teams in the first division. Look at the Bundesliga, they have historically had very few teams from the eastern half in the top division until RB Leipzig.

1. You're right, but there's nothing about that US/CAN Soccer can do short-term to make the soccer GOOD. The only thing they can do is find a better way to SELL bad soccer. The expectation isn't that PRO/REL is suddenly going to make everyone fall in love with bad soccer, at the same amount, forever and always... the bottom teams are ALWAYS going to draw flies like USL does now. The expectations is that A HANDFUL of teams sees a surge in support/business from a promotion battle; that the first "Win or be Relegated" or "win and Promoted" games are put on TV and people tune in because it's a novelty for us here.

2. As opposed to? I don't see the LACK of PRO/REL stopping the Lakers, Dodgers, Yankees, etc from financially dominating Oklahoma City, Milwaukee, Cleveland and Baltimore.

3. Yeah, I think the expectation and application are two different things. Modeling US/CAN soccer like a smaller geographic European country just won't work. We can't have a 20-team per league pyramid and a balanced schedule. It's just inefficient for a continent.

But WE COULD have a 20-team REGION in the top level, our four 10-team regions and some "interleague play" or whatever gets the most TV dollars; and matching regions below so that New Mexico can't replace Charlotte and Richmond can't replace Portland.

And of course the biggest/richest clubs are always going to be up and compete for titles and dominate financially. But the "extra money" and interest comes from the bottom being FRESH BLOOD every year...

Where the first season UP in Pittsburgh (East), Richmond (South), Tulsa (Midwest) and Las Vegas (West) draw more and get better TV ratings for a season than the the bottom two of each conference in a closed league BEING TERRIBLE AGAIN.

 

[KevFu]

Few people in Pittsburgh give a shit about the Riverhounds because they're a minor league team

Oh, I put the ** on "Waving their terrible towels" because I edited the post, it originally said "waiving." Telltale sign that you've spent a ton of your life in and around and talking sports: when you type waiving instead of waving, and berth instead of birth, or see a headline that "SEC fines Vanguard" and think they misspelled Vanderbilt of the Southeastern Conference and not Vanguard is a company fined by the Securities Exchange Commission.

 

[PCSPounder]

Here’s the theory about making the soccer better:

A normal North American League doesn’t mean much until the playoff chase happens, teams try to be better later in the year; you’re not expending closer to 100% energy or trying to get better for a significant chunk of the year.

With promotion and relegation, you’re on notice from week one. Get better or get replaced. Chuck your bad habits and bad coaching moves sooner, not later. Do your best to make the bad soccer better. The majors here REWARD teams for tanking due to draft considerations… and that’s not only frowned upon in a pro/rel setup, it’s also not helping your national team with talent... see the recent USA failure in Nations League.

Pro/rel is, in this theory, about chasing out the bad soccer… about chasing out scouts who look solely for athleticism and don’t see if a player is mentally on the pitch, or whose first touch is rancid, et cetera. Obviously, this works better if the big league is involved.

If you are an MLS watcher, it’s freaking obvious that the level of urgency in the spring and summer doesn’t come close to the last two months of the season and the playoffs. That’s not the case elsewhere, full stop. Which, BTW, guess which part of the current MLS calendar overlaps the NFL season.

Now… as long as MLS is paid to be MLS, as long as the owners are happy, it’s easy for them and others to overlook all the above. But now you’re hearing from unhappy owners because the Apple deal hasn’t delivered… and Apple has been rumored to have not liked the deal from the moment they realized the subscription bump didn’t match what they paid for it. The bigger problem… who will pay that? ESPN is downsizing, Fox was always content with once-a-week presence, and nobody else is doing so well as to be making noise. A streamer might be looking at American ratings for the Premier League and decide “wait a minute, people find the greater sense of urgency in a pro/rel league as more watchable.” Perhaps they would pay MLS to join the fray, because they’d draw way more subscribers if other markets had a stake in the system.

Or maybe the NFL bails out MLS for reasons beyond my comprehension, or someone in media has hidden money to burn. I can’t discount any number of possibilities. But Kev, a soccer crowd might well define “bad soccer” differently than you would.