Unpopular opinions

[Dennis Bonvie]

You didn't understand what I said. Once you've won a Cup, then we can celebrate your individual statistics/accomplishments. Gretzky had already won a Cup when he put up 215 points. Until you win one, I don't care much for the overhype about certain players.

But he hadn't won a Cup when he put up 92 goals in a season.

What a meaningless record that must be.

 

[Felidae]

Since Marcel Dionne was mentioned...

Marcel Dionne>Guy Lafleur.

Lafleur obviously deserves credit for his accomplishments, but he was also put in an ideal situation. Whereas Marcel Dionne was on a one line team, as shown by his playoff career

Despite that though, Marcel managed to age better (better career ppg) despite playing more games, and matched his career highs in the same era. (Though admittedly Dionne's seasons were a but higher scoring)

I don't think Lafleur wins a Hart against the version of Trottier in 1978-89 and Gretzky either(greatest rookie season of all time on a mediocre team) . I mean, he couldn't win against peak Clarke (who's Hart seasons are comparable to Trottier's Hart year) and only won a hart from him when Clarke's offensive game started falling off.

 

[VanIslander]

No one scored more over the ten year span 1975-1985 than Marcel Dionne, ... which may make him a segue rather than a goat, stopgapping/interweaving? Lafleur, Gretzky.

Something like that.

Still not top-50 player all-time material, all things considered.

 

[The Panther]

Individual statistics only matter AFTER you've won a Cup. Otherwise it's just stat padding to me, you play to win a Cup, not score a bunch of meaningless goals/points.

Ovechkin's goal record chase means more because his legacy is solidified with the Cup. Otherwise, it would be a weird bitter taste IMHO.

Well, you've definitely posted an unpopular opinion.

In fact, I think only you have this opinion, per the history of this forum (and maybe all hockey fans on earth).

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Well, you've definitely posted an unpopular opinion.

In fact, I think only you have this opinion, per the history of this forum (and maybe all hockey fans on earth).

Cup(s) & individual statistics >>>>>>>>>>>>> no Cup & individual statistics

 

[Nogatco Rd]

2018 Caps are somewhat underrated

They knocked off:
-Strong CBJ team that swept the record setting Pres trophy winner the following year
-2x defending champion Pittsburgh
-Future 2x champ Tampa
-Excellent VGK team that cruised to the final with a combined 12-3 record over 3 series

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Marcel Dionne>Guy Lafleur.Lafleur obviously deserves credit for his accomplishments, but he was also put in an ideal situation. Whereas Marcel Dionne was on a one line team, as shown by his playoff careerDespite that though, Marcel managed to age better (better career ppg) despite playing more games, and matched his career highs in the same era. (Though admittedly Dionne's seasons were a but higher scoring)
I don't think Lafleur wins a Hart against the version of Trottier in 1978-89 and Gretzky either(greatest rookie season of all time on a mediocre team) . I mean, he couldn't win against peak Clarke (who's Hart seasons are comparable to Trottier's Hart year) and only won a hart from him when Clarke's offensive game started falling off.

But he did win Hart trophies against Dionne, who you are comparing him to.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No one scored more over the ten year span 1975-1985 than Marcel Dionne, ... which may make him a segue rather than a goat, stopgapping/interweaving? Lafleur, Gretzky.

Something like that.

Still not top-50 player all-time material, all things considered.

Once Dionne started playing regularly with Taylor & Simmer:

59-71-130 +22
53-84-137 +34
58-77-135 +54
50-67-117 -10
56-51-107 +10

Big numbers and big plus/minus numbers on teams that had little else. The last seasons plagued by horrendous goaltending.

That line was as good as any that I ever saw.

 

[MadLuke]

Cup(s) & individual statistics >>>>>>>>>>>>> no Cup & individual statistics

Well then we are not saying anything anymore, obviously all other things being equals, cups > no cup.

but he was also put in an ideal situation.

A good one, but ideal, depend on the player, being heralded Morenz-Richard-Beliveau successor on a stacked Bowman defensive minded team also have their challenge. The highly touted first overall generational talent starting on a terrible team is not that bad and is what most did well (Lemieux, Ovechkin, Crosby, Bedard, McDavid), the Lindros-Lafleur-Gretsky not being first overall on a bottom team for different reasons, could have some headstart, but often by the time they are teh the best player in the league that should win a cup those difference got polished up and the players judged on a ramp with their circumstance quite a bit.

Would Lafleur won only 2 cups with MTL, is playoff resume would be not near Mario doing it turning those 80s pens into a 2 cup champs and would he have won 1 Stanley Cup his career would have been a huge failure.

 

[DitchMarner]

The Cup is the ultimate goal, but it is a team award. I don't know why people insist on judging individual players on Cups won to the extent that an otherwise great career is considered a failure or disappointment because of the lack of a Stanley Cup. The question should be about how much a player did to help his team win a Cup given his circumstances.

So many of the biggest names in hockey never won the Stanley Cup, including:

Marcel Dionne
Joe Thornton
Adam Oates
Eric Lindros
Dale Hawerchuk
Mats Sundin
Pierre Turgeon
Gilbert Perreault
Pat LaFontaine
Jean Ratelle
Pavel Bure
Paul Kariya


That list consists of players who combined for thousands of points and a lot of great moments and memories. All those things are meaningless or devalued because their teams never won the Cup? Seems like a stretch and not very pragmatic. If Stastny stays with NJ until '95 and wins a Cup at the tail-end of his career, suddenly he redeems himself or makes it so that all those points he accrued in the 80s are meaningful? If Hawerchuk wins with PHI or Oates with ANA, they're much better players?

 

[MadLuke]

It is not really about literally winning the cup, it is about being a main reason a team won the cup, Savard winning with Mtl scoring 0 goal and being benched during the final is not a really big deal.

And the blame will tend to be about not doing enough to help their teams win more than not winning (see Bourque or Hasek pre-2002, they did not had lesser playoff resume in people mind than some actual cup winners).

The talk around Dionne-Thornton goes above not winning it, a Bure-Bourque pre-winning, if Gilmour did not win it in 1989 and would have played like he did during his career in the playoff.... he would not be talked about like a Thornton.

The if you never win you cannot be the goat talk do exist, but it is with some logic of the sense that a player better than Gretzky having a better career, will find a way to win it at least once and reserved to the great of the great level.

And to not, that not that big of a list with many people having peak cut short (lindros-bure-kariya) here... It will be bit circular, but none of those names listed occur in the 60 of the last HOF top 100 I think. 32 team league, it could become more common now.

 

[DitchMarner]

It is not really about literally winning the cup, it is about being a main reason a team won the cup, Savard winning with Mtl scoring 0 goal and being benched during the final is not a really big deal.

I agree, but why is there so much of a fixation on the binary outcome of "yes" or "no?"

In the cases of Bure and Iginla (whom I forgot to include on that list), they both had great playoff runs and came one win short of a Stanley Cup.

If LaFayette scores on this chance...



...and the Canucks win that game in OT, does that legitimize Bure's run or career more? That play had nothing to do with him but did happen in the biggest game of his NHL career.

If Khabibulin doesn't make this great save...



...and the Flames win that game in overtime, does that mean Iginla distinguishes himself from guys like Hawerchuk and Turgeon in terms of being a "winner?"

Just this year, if things had gone a little differently in Game Seven, the Oilers could have won the Stanley Cup. Evan Bouchard hit the post late in the first period and then EDM had a good scoring chance but Kulikov cleared the puck away just before the series winner.



If Holloway scores on that chance and EDM wins the game, does that play that had nothing to do with him mean McDavid is one of the greatest leaders of all-time (rallying his team from a 3-0 deficit to win it all)?

Sure, you can say that maybe these guys should have played a little better in those final games, but they weren't on the ice for the entire games. So many events beyond their control impacted the games.


Playoff performance absolutely matters, but I think you can assess a player's play in the playoffs without the presupposition that his performance was excellent if his team won it all and his performance was inadequate if his team lost. Thornton wasn't a great playoff player (he never led a series outright in scoring and only had more than three goals in a single playoffs once). His Cup total is the same as that of guys like Hawerchuk and Stastny, but I don't think that necessarily means they should be considered equally disappointing in the playoffs.

 

[bobholly39]

2018 Caps are somewhat underrated

They knocked off:
-Strong CBJ team that swept the record setting Pres trophy winner the following year
-2x defending champion Pittsburgh
-Future 2x champ Tampa
-Excellent VGK team that cruised to the final with a combined 12-3 record over 3 series

I don't know that this is unpopular? Or rather - that they aren't rated high to begin with?

I don't think they're the top cup champions of the cap era or anything, but they were a very worthy and legitimate champion. It's a team who won president's trophy 2-3 years in a row or so?

 

[MadLuke]

I agree, but why is there so much of a fixation on the binary outcome of "yes" or "no?"

I am not sure if it really exist (even among the people that talk like it is the case), no one talked about Bourque-Hasek pre-cup or no-cup Bure like they do for Joe Thornton and Dionne, because it is always more nuanced than that yes or no.

The very exception if for the greatness of all time belt that some say you cannot be greater than Gretzky without winning, which make sense greatness (Greatness is a quality or state characterized by exceptional achievement, abilities, or virtue), which is easy to defend as a position.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Just a hunch but I think Walt Gretzky has more in common with Bonnie & Eric Lindros than people give him credit for.

My guess is that Gretzky’s “unique” first two contracts were calculated in large part to give him a measure of autonomy when he ultimately joined the NHL, ensuring he had the leverage to avoid squandering his talents with a ‘Mickey Mouse’ franchise drafting 1OA like the Colorado Rockies/NJ Devils.

 

[JackSlater]

Just a hunch but I think Walt Gretzky has more in common with Bonnie & Eric Lindros than people give him credit for.

My guess is that Gretzky’s “unique” first two contracts were calculated in large part to give him a measure of autonomy when he ultimately joined the NHL, ensuring he had the leverage to avoid squandering his talents with a ‘Mickey Mouse’ franchise drafting 1OA like the Colorado Rockies/NJ Devils.

Walter Gretzky had quite an image change over the years. He knew what he had with Wayne. Even at his funeral, covered live on CBC, I remember them talking about him opting to miss the birth of one of the kids because he wanted to watch Wayne at a tournament.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Just a hunch but I think Walt Gretzky has more in common with Bonnie & Eric Lindros than people give him credit for.

My guess is that Gretzky’s “unique” first two contracts were calculated in large part to give him a measure of autonomy when he ultimately joined the NHL, ensuring he had the leverage to avoid squandering his talents with a ‘Mickey Mouse’ franchise drafting 1OA like the Colorado Rockies/NJ Devils.

I posted this a long time ago but it fits here.

There’s absolutely no shortage of NHL players who have always done things the way they want, “system” be damned.

Let’s start with Wayne Gretzky.

His dad violated all kinds of rules to get his 6 year-old on a team with 10 year olds back in 1967. Thus began a career where the Gretzkys consistently found ways to do exactly what they wanted.

In 1975, Walter Gretzky wanted 14 year-old Wayne to play minor hockey in the Metropolitan Toronto Hockey League, the current Greater Toronto Hockey League’s forerunner. But since Wayne was a Brantford boy and the “property” of the Ontario Minor Hockey Association (these are the days before Alliance hockey existed), he could not get the boy a release because of the 100 year-old residency rules.

So the Gretzkys mocked up “legal guardianship” papers (another player did the same thing) and tried to make the hockey move to Toronto that way. I’ve got a photo of the guardianship papers, if anyone is interested (won’t publish it here in an open forum).

Anyway, Brantford and the OMHA said “no go.”

And so Walter sued the Ontario Minor Hockey Association over their arcane residency rules. Ontario Superior Court Judge McMurtry ruled in favour of the OMHA and essentially said that he didn’t think the courts should interfere in the administration of minor hockey in Ontario.

But it didn’t matter, because rather than play at home in Brantford after this court loss, Wayne had already signed to play for a Toronto-based “outlaw” Jr. B club operating outside of the whole CAHA /establishment jurisdiction.

Two years later, when he was selected by the Soo in the annual junior hockey midget priority selection cattle call, Walter quipped, “two years ago they said letting Wayne play 40 miles from our house would destroy the game, but today they say he must play 600 miles from our house or else the game will be destroyed. Interesting people, No?”

So 16 year-old Wayne goes to the Soo ... but rather than wait four years for what was then a 20 year-old NHL draft, he instead played just one season for the Soo and then promptly signed a 7-year personal services contract with Nelson Skalbania, owner of the World Hockey Association’s Indianapolis Racers.

Doing it his way.

On Gretzky’s 18th birthday (January 26, 1979), he’s now an Oiler and team owner Peter Pocklington rips up that 7 year personal services contract he bought from Skalbania and signs Wayne to a new 10 year personal services contract at a centre ice ceremony.

Yes, a personal services contract, not a standard player contract.

Doing it his way again.

When the NHL swallowed the WHA in 1979, Gretzky was not the property of any NHL team because he still wasn’t old enough for the NHL amateur entry draft. He was the only player in the league who was not covered by a standard player contract. Not even 20 years old and he’d never willingly relinquished control over his own life and career, going all the way back to when he was 6.

And the entire move from Edmonton to LA ... that was Gretzky once more doing what was best for Gretzky.

Of course, Eric Lindros was unbelievably litigious and his family never hesitated to call upon the courts if they believed “the system” wasn’t what was best for the kid. That story is a book.

And then there’s Crosby... father Troy sued Hockey Nova Scotia and the Dartmouth Minor Hockey Association when Sid was denied the right to “play up” on the major midget age team when he was a minor bantam.

Like Gretzky before hm, Sid lost in court, but it didn’t matter. He’d already agreed to leave Nova Scotia and the entire country of Canada for the greener pastures of Shattuck-St.Mary’s, the school-based hockey factory in Minnesota.

Doing it his way.

Ironically, at one time Hockey Canada featured Gretzky, Lindros and Crosby as poster boys for the governing body’s success. All three were Olympic team captains. Yet, all three sued them at some point. Bizarre.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Point is simple: if players (and their families) don’t look out for their own best interests, nobody else will.

 

[frisco]

If it wasn't for David Steckel, Sidney Crosby would have this additional hardware on his c.v.:

2 Hart
2 Art Ross
1 Rocket Richard
1 Stanley Cup
1 Conn Smythe

He would have been anointed as one of the Top 5 ever at the end of the 2017 season and McDavid vs. Crosby comparisons would seem far fetched right now.

My Best-Carey

 

[jigglysquishy]

2 Hart, Ross, and a Rocket. Sure I can buy it.

But why would he win another Cup? He played in both 2012 and 2013. Are people that confident in the 2011 Penguins? The same team without Malkin in the playoffs?

 

[MadLuke]

The cup-smythe being the only part that could be unpopular I presume here

 

[Michael Farkas]

All right, I'll try to shoulder this one...

Without Steckel, Crosby is healthy for the 2011 playoffs. Healthy Crosby means we finished ahead of Philadelphia for the 2 seed. Buffalo has enough rush offense in their game to beat the Malkin-less Pens, and Ryan Miller steals a game.

"We just had no answer for Marc-Andre Gragnani," lamented Pens coach Dan Bylsma after the loss.

Enraged by the fact that he's never heard of Gragnani (and without the "we didn't have Crosby and Malkin" excuse), GM Ray Shero fires Bylsma after the series - as already his tactics were starting to implode on themselves. Pittsburgh gets a new coach and they win one of the 2012 or 2013 runs, probably the latter as that was the best Pens team since '93.

2012 was almost entirely a coaching implosion. That series wasn't even hockey. It was just nonsense. That series is basically what the NHL would be if there were no coaches I think...

And 2013 was entirely a coaching loss. Like, yeah, Fleury wasn't good early vs the Isles, but that was remedied by Vokoun. But that series against Boston killed headmanning the puck in the league and helped to usher in sort of a new style of offense (micro-level, not really macro).

2012 and 2013 were really graphic flame outs and - I almost never say this kind of absolute - they were almost 100% on coaching in both cases...it was really rare to see.

So, that's how Crosby gets another Cup and Smythe without Dirtbag McGee elbowing him in the head........unpopular theoretically...

 

[Staniowski]

If it wasn't for David Steckel, Sidney Crosby would have this additional hardware on his c.v.:

2 Hart
2 Art Ross
1 Rocket Richard
1 Stanley Cup
1 Conn Smythe

He would have been anointed as one of the Top 5 ever at the end of the 2017 season and McDavid vs. Crosby comparisons would seem far fetched right now.

My Best-Carey

I think two more Art Rosses is very conservative. He likely easily wins those 3 seasons - '11, '12, '13 - and possibly one or two more. He never really scored the same after the injuries.

 

[JackSlater]

If it wasn't for David Steckel, Sidney Crosby would have this additional hardware on his c.v.:

2 Hart
2 Art Ross
1 Rocket Richard
1 Stanley Cup
1 Conn Smythe

He would have been anointed as one of the Top 5 ever at the end of the 2017 season and McDavid vs. Crosby comparisons would seem far fetched right now.

My Best-Carey

Everybody, except for those who would have an existential crisis if it were to happen, knows that Crosby wins the regular season trophies in 2011. The same is true about 2013, but that's not on Steckel. Why does he get a second Hart and Art Ross without Steckel though? Malkin was exceptional in 2012 and I'm not sure how it plays out if Crosby is reasonably healthy.

 

[Staniowski]

I posted this a long time ago but it fits here.

There’s absolutely no shortage of NHL players who have always done things the way they want, “system” be damned.

Let’s start with Wayne Gretzky.

His dad violated all kinds of rules to get his 6 year-old on a team with 10 year olds back in 1967. Thus began a career where the Gretzkys consistently found ways to do exactly what they wanted.

In 1975, Walter Gretzky wanted 14 year-old Wayne to play minor hockey in the Metropolitan Toronto Hockey League, the current Greater Toronto Hockey League’s forerunner. But since Wayne was a Brantford boy and the “property” of the Ontario Minor Hockey Association (these are the days before Alliance hockey existed), he could not get the boy a release because of the 100 year-old residency rules.

So the Gretzkys mocked up “legal guardianship” papers (another player did the same thing) and tried to make the hockey move to Toronto that way. I’ve got a photo of the guardianship papers, if anyone is interested (won’t publish it here in an open forum).

Anyway, Brantford and the OMHA said “no go.”

And so Walter sued the Ontario Minor Hockey Association over their arcane residency rules. Ontario Superior Court Judge McMurtry ruled in favour of the OMHA and essentially said that he didn’t think the courts should interfere in the administration of minor hockey in Ontario.

But it didn’t matter, because rather than play at home in Brantford after this court loss, Wayne had already signed to play for a Toronto-based “outlaw” Jr. B club operating outside of the whole CAHA /establishment jurisdiction.

Two years later, when he was selected by the Soo in the annual junior hockey midget priority selection cattle call, Walter quipped, “two years ago they said letting Wayne play 40 miles from our house would destroy the game, but today they say he must play 600 miles from our house or else the game will be destroyed. Interesting people, No?”

So 16 year-old Wayne goes to the Soo ... but rather than wait four years for what was then a 20 year-old NHL draft, he instead played just one season for the Soo and then promptly signed a 7-year personal services contract with Nelson Skalbania, owner of the World Hockey Association’s Indianapolis Racers.

Doing it his way.

On Gretzky’s 18th birthday (January 26, 1979), he’s now an Oiler and team owner Peter Pocklington rips up that 7 year personal services contract he bought from Skalbania and signs Wayne to a new 10 year personal services contract at a centre ice ceremony.

Yes, a personal services contract, not a standard player contract.

Doing it his way again.

When the NHL swallowed the WHA in 1979, Gretzky was not the property of any NHL team because he still wasn’t old enough for the NHL amateur entry draft. He was the only player in the league who was not covered by a standard player contract. Not even 20 years old and he’d never willingly relinquished control over his own life and career, going all the way back to when he was 6.

And the entire move from Edmonton to LA ... that was Gretzky once more doing what was best for Gretzky.

Of course, Eric Lindros was unbelievably litigious and his family never hesitated to call upon the courts if they believed “the system” wasn’t what was best for the kid. That story is a book.

And then there’s Crosby... father Troy sued Hockey Nova Scotia and the Dartmouth Minor Hockey Association when Sid was denied the right to “play up” on the major midget age team when he was a minor bantam.

Like Gretzky before hm, Sid lost in court, but it didn’t matter. He’d already agreed to leave Nova Scotia and the entire country of Canada for the greener pastures of Shattuck-St.Mary’s, the school-based hockey factory in Minnesota.

Doing it his way.

Ironically, at one time Hockey Canada featured Gretzky, Lindros and Crosby as poster boys for the governing body’s success. All three were Olympic team captains. Yet, all three sued them at some point. Bizarre.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Point is simple: if players (and their families) don’t look out for their own best interests, nobody else will.

And Lemieux sued the Q so that he wouldn't be forced to play for Team Canada, and he won.
---------------------------
If I remember correctly, Crosby's family tried for him to play Midget AAA when he was 13 (which would be 2nd year Peewee); he lost and I'm not sure where he played that season, probably Bantam AAA. Then he played Midget AAA, and dominated, at age 14. Then to Shattuck at 15, and to Rimouski at 16.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Yup.

And Lemieux sued the Q so that he wouldn't be forced to play for Team Canada, and he won.
---------------------------
If I remember correctly, Crosby's family tried for him to play Midget AAA when he was 13 (which would be 2nd year Peewee); he lost and I'm not sure where he played that season, probably Bantam AAA. Then he played Midget AAA, and dominated, at age 14. Then to Shattuck at 15, and to Rimouski at 16.

And Lemieux sued the Q so that he wouldn't be forced to play for Team Canada, and he won.
---------------------------
If I remember correctly, Crosby's family tried for him to play Midget AAA when he was 13 (which would be 2nd year Peewee); he lost and I'm not sure where he played that season, probably Bantam AAA. Then he played Midget AAA, and dominated, at age 14. Then to Shattuck at 15, and to Rimouski at 16.

Yup, I could have added Mario to the list.

Fun fact: when Detroit signed Gordie Howe and sent him to their sponsored junior team in Galt, Ontario, they totally messed up. CAHA rules only allowed for 3 imports, and Howe was the 4th. He played a few pre-season games, someone squealed on Galt, and Howe spent the entire season limited only to practices, and was not allowed to dress for any regular season or playoff games. That was the entirety of his junior hockey (non)career.

Can you imagine if something even remotely like that happened today? I’m sure more than a few practicing attorneys on this board are thinking, “oh, the billable hours — mwah-ha-ha!”