Unpopular opinions

[JackSlater]

The thing that makes that hard is that these days the kids in Canada really skew so predominantly Center. Even though at any given moment on any given team, there will be a 2:1 wing to center ratio, it just seems like the best kid in every rink is put at center, which creates a feedback loop of its overall dominance and prominence, until they come into a kid better than them and get demoted to wing. Assume this wasn't always the case as you had like Lafleur, Howe, Richard back in the day that were wing and considered best in the world, but ever since Gretzky at least, it's been extremely center dominant.

Sweden also seems to disproportionately have its best forwards playing center (although I notice a lot of the kids that play Center at the U18/U20 levels will play Wing when they are called up to the SHL teams as teenagers so they seem to have a lot of flexibility). USA is a bit more mixed (maybe NTDP plays a role in that, not sure as don't really know what kids were doing pre-junior) and it's really mainly Russia/Czech that skew a lot of its best offensive talent to the wings.

With Canada remaining a plurality in terms of NHL players for the foreseeable future, I think this is going to continue to create an atmosphere where the best forwards continue to be centers.

This is true and somewhat touched on by a recent article on MacKinnon put out by Sportsnet:

‘Just a beast’: Inside Nathan MacKinnon’s pursuit of hockey dominance

When MacKinnon went to Shattuck St. Mary's his coach put him on the wing and MacKinnon was pissed about it, even after the coach explained his reasons. In MacKinnon's case I actually see him game as very transferrable to the wing, but surely he came up always playing centre as inevitably the best player on whichever Halifax area teams he played on.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is true and somewhat touched on by a recent article on MacKinnon put out by Sportsnet:

‘Just a beast’: Inside Nathan MacKinnon’s pursuit of hockey dominance

When MacKinnon went to Shattuck St. Mary's his coach put him on the wing and MacKinnon was pissed about it, even after the coach explained his reasons. In MacKinnon's case I actually see him game as very transferrable to the wing, but surely he came up always playing centre as inevitably the best player on whichever Halifax area teams he played on.

I get the sense that Bedard is reluctant to play Wing and views himself (from a sense of identity perspective) as a Center, even though some of the stuff like defense/faceoffs could maybe benefit not having to think about as much. Probably similar sort of vibe. I know it was U20 level, but he looked perhaps at his best playing RW at the WJC in his draft year.

 

[Michael Farkas]

His whole game makes sense on the wing. Trouble is, there's nobody on that team that can do anything with the puck in the NZ AND have it end up with Bedard in a fruitful way. Pending Rinzel's multi-line puck carrying...

Like I say with Ovechkin, it's not easy to start a rush and end it at this level. You need a facilitator. Get Bedard a center so that he doesn't feel the weight of the entire team on every shift haha

 

[JackSlater]

I get the sense that Bedard is reluctant to play Wing and views himself (from a sense of identity perspective) as a Center, even though some of the stuff like defense/faceoffs could maybe benefit not having to think about as much. Probably similar sort of vibe. I know it was U20 level, but he looked perhaps at his best playing RW at the WJC in his draft year.

Bedard is an obvious winger to me, but I'm confident that you've nailed the reason that he wants to stay at centre. Stamkos was also an obvious winger. If they came up in most (any?) other country then they would have ended up on the wing I imagine. Stamkos of course ended up there anyway.

 

[JFedol]

(May sound like an oldhead comment, but I'm in my early 20s)

Lots of eras had diluted talent in the past, but the league was still 10x times better pre-cap. More high end talent, better roster construction, more suspenseful swings and storylines. Wood sticks over composition, more creativity. Dead Puck Era was even worse, but the NHL was greatly stifled from the DPE 2.0 from 2005-2017 and it greatly overestimated the star power and there's a shitload of players respectfully that would look very average if they played in the 80s and 90s IMHO.

Another one, Howe and Orr were vastly superior to Gretzky and Lemieux and I don't think it was really close. Both of them are the quintessential perfect hockey players in all ways, shape or form that 99 and 66's offensive abilities don't compensate for the perfect combination of grit, offense, defense that 9 and 4 offered

 

[JFedol]

The Colorado Avalanche underachieved by only winning 2 Stanley Cups in the ~1995-2003 era. They should have won 4 or maybe even 5 Cups.

Agreed, I'm not sure about 2003 or 2004. But that team was like Crosby-Malkin-Fleury (elite but overrated, if not slightly mediocre) on STEROIDS

1997 arguably should've been a back to back year even with Detroit finally slaying the dragon. I can't remember that series very well but the Avs honestly looked like the better team 70% of the time in the 5 times that rivalry went on from 96-04. I've gone on to watch a lot of old Avs playoff games in the 90s and it's just eye-brow raising how much good Forsberg was at routinely making a lot of elite playoff teams his bitch in the playoffs lol. Multiple shifts of pure brute strength puck possession followed by elite passing and playmaking to generate chances out of pure will. Sakic with his disgusting snap shot and the same impact as Peter, then there's Roy looking completely unfazed by any attempts of repeated O-zone chances and deflections. Detroit really....... was scrambling a lot and sometimes looked desperate and entire damage was mostly accomplished by 2 game-breaking players (They had depth, I know)

1998 is just pure raw choking, how tf do you lose to Edmonton of all teams. The cup would've been guaranteed cup if they won. 99 vs Dallas as well is just sigh.....3-2 lead with a chance to close it home, and they fumble the chance of a LIFETIME. 2000 is just deja vu all over again. Bourque wouldn't have needed 01 to finally bring a cup home for him.

2002 should've been another year. Foppa again, was just the human definiton of the terminator in that series lol, lots of people mention the phrase of a player being unstoppable, but there REALLY was nothing you could do to stop him in any way, shape or form.

Overall, that's possibly 5 cups squandered because of injuries and just pure choking. Avs didn't really need Foote to matchup with Lidstom because how the fact that Sakic-Forsberg-Roy was a 3 headed monster that nobody wanted the smoke with lol. It's just insane how clutch and dominant they were in the playoffs, people talk about the greatest playoff performers in history but these 3 really were an experience.

 

[JFedol]

And my last and final one, Jagr from 1996-2001 was a 170-190+pt player being hindered from the most mediocre linemates possible. His domination during that time stretch is simply utterworldly.

If he was done the right justice, hypothetical Crosby, Ovi and McDavid comparisons would look laughable today.

 

[MadLuke]

player being hindered from the most mediocre linemates possible.

Does that make Francis one of the most underrated player ever (always been a good possible candidate for that, at least among people with giant numbers and something in the trophy case) ?

It can be circular and they had the chance to play with Jagr, but Lemieux-Jagr-Francis-Nedved-Kovalev-Straka are all in the top 50 in ppg of 96-01 windows.

Robert Lang was a very legit player has well.

Maybe for some specific year, but 96-97-98-01, he had either Francis or Lemieux.

And 00 was Kovalev-Lang-Straka season.

Compare well to Armstrong-Malone-Kunitz-Dupuis or McDavid/Ovechkin linemate of many years, those teams had a lot of issue, but terrible first line-first PP unit top end offensive forward talent was not usually the biggest one. The Penguins were the second best powerplay (barely behind the Avs) for the 96-01 NHL era for a reason.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Offside and icing are terrible rules & we should get rid of both. The fewer stoppages the better.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Removing icing to speed up the pace of play...? That would not work out.

 

[psycat]

And my last and final one, Jagr from 1996-2001 was a 170-190+pt player being hindered from the most mediocre linemates possible. His domination during that time stretch is simply utterworldly.

If he was done the right justice, hypothetical Crosby, Ovi and McDavid comparisons would look laughable today.

I already belive the Crosby+Ovi comparisons are rather laughable to be fair, both horribly overrated but it is what it is. McDavid? For me he is in the same tier as Jagr(and they are pretty much alone in that tier) could very well end up passing him for career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I already belive the Crosby+Ovi comparisons are rather laughable to be fair, both horribly overrated but it is what it is. McDavid? For me he is in the same tier as Jagr(and they are pretty much alone in that tier) could very well end up passing him for career.

I'd be interested in a quick and dirty look at these tiers...

 

[JFedol]

Peak Healthy Lemieux may have had the possiblity of scoring 300pts in a season IMO

Somewhere around 89-93 would've been the best chance.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He'd outscore his totals in the 1984 QMJHL? **** it, I'm in. 400 points when you include playoffs! haha

 

[Johnny Engine]

Only if he was able to play with an optical illusion on his chest. It's a little known fact that the Laval Voisins logo was very confusing to defensemen, as they'd be left grasping for a nonexistent 3D object as Mario blew past them.
A 3D robo penguin logo might have done the trick to replicate the same strategy.

 

[JFedol]

He'd outscore his totals in the 1984 QMJHL? **** it, I'm in. 400 points when you include playoffs! haha

Jokes aside.

I think his offensive ability had another ceiling. He could straight up generate anything out of pure f***ing will.

92/93 season was a snippet

 

[Michael Farkas]

I do agree with that, in part. Lemieux was probably the most technically skilled player of all time. It's a shame his career was bookended by expansion-level franchise states. Then his prime was doused with nonsense like cancer. Folks have an itchy trigger finger here, in pockets, about ousting him from the Big Four...and, on paper, fine, I see it...but on the ice, it's not a very tenable position without huge philosophical shifts in other parts of it...

 

[psycat]

I'd be interested in a quick and dirty look at these tiers...

Tier 1: Gretzky
Tier 2: Orr, Howe, Lemieux, I will grant that the first two are mostly based on reputation.
Tier3: Jagr, McDavid(in progress), Hasek(for me he is the "Orr" of goalies albeit slightly less impressive).
Tier4: Alot of players including, but not limited to: Bourque, Crosby, Lidström, Roy, Plante, Esposito, Ovechkin, Potvin, Beliveau etc.

To be keep it in spirit of the topic I will say that players like Harvey, Richard, Brodeur, Fetisov, Sawchuck etc would miss my 4th tier by abit, not saying they are far off mind you.

So to me that means Crosby is at best 8th all time(granted some prorating involved with McDavid), and many seem to rank him 5th, but he might aswell be somewhere around 12-15th all time(and he is certainly closer to that than 5th in my book) which is nothing to scoff at. Same goes for Ovi the greatest goalscorer ever(?) but just so subpar as a complete player to other in the same tier that I would likely have him towards the bottom of it if I made a thought out comprehensive list).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Appreciate an actual answer. Thanks.

 

[Professor What]

I do agree with that, in part. Lemieux was probably the most technically skilled player of all time. It's a shame his career was bookended by expansion-level franchise states. Then his prime was doused with nonsense like cancer. Folks have an itchy trigger finger here, in pockets, about ousting him from the Big Four...and, on paper, fine, I see it...but on the ice, it's not a very tenable position without huge philosophical shifts in other parts of it...

I see more people that seem ready to boot Howe from the Big Four than I do Lemieux. I see more exaggeration of what Lemieux would have done in ideal circumstances, while I see Howe get crapped on.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd put both Lemieux and Hasek in the top five players of all time, but I also think they are frequently overrated and discussed in fantastical terms. Lemieux could have scored as much as he wanted, but just didn't I guess even when he was reasonably healthy. Hasek could carry even a dogshit team to a championship, but also only got near championships when the team in front of him also played well because he was magnanimous or something.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Removing icing to speed up the pace of play...? That would not work out.

Fewer stoppages the better

 

[MadLuke]

Fewer stoppages the better

In all other things being equal type of way, not an absolute, a goal stopping the play for example is nice in pro-spectacle hockey, probably better for some penalty and rules to exist as well.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bedard is an obvious winger to me, but I'm confident that you've nailed the reason that he wants to stay at centre. Stamkos was also an obvious winger. If they came up in most (any?) other country then they would have ended up on the wing I imagine. Stamkos of course ended up there anyway.

as a center, stamkos was extremely lucky to have played with two mvp-level playmaking wingers

how many of those guys have ever even existed?

whereas yeah, he should have played out his peak years as a wing with a playmaking center

 

[JackSlater]

as a center, stamkos was extremely lucky to have played with two mvp-level playmaking wingers

how many of those guys have ever even existed?

whereas yeah, he should have played out his peak years as a wing with a playmaking center

I agree, especially with Kucherov where for years his point totals were beyond his level of play. Pre leg break Stamkos I could have had elite success even without that support, but not after from what I saw. For what it's worth any time I saw Stamkos play internationally he was always on the wing, both at LW and RW.