The Panther
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Jacques Plante is the best goalie ever, and probably a top-ten all-time player.
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Felidae
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Jagr does not have the best season by a forward in the DPE.. That title belongs to Joe Sakic in 2000-01
jigglysquishy
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It wasn't best 4 season stretch, but best singular season.
Sakic 01 and Jagr 99 are the clear standout seasons from 1996-97 through 2003-04.
MadLuke
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If we do a best year season-playoff combo, maybe it would become even more controversial to not pick 00-01 Sakic here.
Forsberg 2003 playoff make it easy to remove him.. not even sure who would be a good competitor to 2001 Sakic.
00 Jagr could have, but just 63 games, Sakic had a hart season with a Smythe playoff run like Malkin did in 2009, while being a +45 veteran glowing of intangible and leadership.
Dennis Bonvie
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Hockey Outsider
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Agreed. In the lull between peak Lemieux and peak McDavid (roughly 1997 to 2020), there was a clear top three for greatest seasons from a forward - Jagr 1999, Sakic 2001, and Ovechkin 2008. Next on the list would probably be Ovechkin 2010 and maybe Malkin 2012. Right outside this narrowly-defined period would be Lemieux 1996 and McDavid 2021 and 2023.
JackSlater
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You've said similar things various times, and it may be true. What is the reasoning?
jigglysquishy
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The challenge with the 50s Habs is there are four absolute titans that can be argued as the best non Big 4 in their position.
I find it extremely improbable that that's actually true though. I would really struggle to see all four in a top ten or even a top twelve. Even all four in a top fifteen feels like pushing it.
I find it extremely improbable that that's actually true though. I would really struggle to see all four in a top ten or even a top twelve. Even all four in a top fifteen feels like pushing it.
MadLuke
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In the sense that if true they would have won more ? or just statistically speaking ? to be playing in the nhl at the same time ?
For both critics Richard was 10 years older than Beliveau, which make both less extraordinary and more likely to happen than in a 10 years window and that they win just 5 cups.
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jigglysquishy
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Just the improbability of it all. That the greatest defensive defenseman peaked in front of the greatest goalie ever.
I lean more towards Beliveau and Harvey being exactly that good. But that Plante and Richard are more top 5 in their position than top 2.
jj cale
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MadLuke
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Once they became populars and prestitour If Olympics are not to be only for rich gentlemen (which I imagine was part of the goal of the amateur rules), you need to accept pro and state or private company sponsored, the issue was the refusing of the pros not the acceptation of the state sponsored.
Would an amateur that had a sponsor or a college athletic scholarship also excluded ?
Would an amateur that had a sponsor or a college athletic scholarship also excluded ?
The Panther
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I just think his career is so impressive with consistent quality over a long period (unlike Sawchuk) and it covers so many bases.
He played for 23 years, which included the still post-war NHL and right up to mid-1970s WHA.... and he was pretty much terrific for his entire career, stern to stern.
He had the best save percentage and 'GSAA' in 1955-56, and he had the best save percentage and 'GSAA' in 1970-71 (in the latter season, he had the best save percentage of all time, at age 42).
Despite two losing seasons with the mid-60s' Rangers, his career RS record is 314 - 133 - 107, which is crazy good. His playoff record is 71 - 36, which is also crazy good.
He was a real student of the game, too. Followed international hockey, and was advising Tretiak in 1972.
The comment about the Soviet Union reminded me of my next one. The Olympics has lost a lot of luster since the fall of the iron curtain. Just doesn't have the same Us vs Them feel as it used to. Not just in hockey, but in all sports.
SillyRabbit
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Jagr in 1999 was just way too dominant offensively. 127 points at the peak of the DPE.
He outscored Selanne by 20 points.
He outscored Kariya by 26 points.
He outscored Forsberg by 30 points.
He outscored Sakic by 31 points.
His linemates were Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina. They each scored 42 points (77 and 82 games played respectively).
Sakic played with Hejduk (79 points) and Tanguay (77 points).
Kariya and Selanne played with each other and Rucchin.
Sakic in 2001 was still outscored by Jagr (Sakic had the better overall season but his offensive dominance was not anywhere near Jagr's 1999 season).
Sakic's linemates scored almost 50% more points than Jagr's. What do you think Jagr's totals would've looked like with Hejduk and Tanguay on his wings?
140 points?
What about the CSSR? Sweden? Just give all the medals to just the USA and Canada you mean?
To your last part it doesn't really work that way but you made a fair point and people love Sakic more than Jagr which helps Sakic to a small but certain degree.
Felidae
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The offensive gap is there certainly.
Sakic outproduced 10th place by 29 points
Outproduced 20th place by 38 points.
Outscored 10th place by 14 goals
Outscored 20th place by 19 goals.
Jagr outproduced 10th place by 38 points
Outproduced 20th place by 55 points
Outscored 10th place by 5 goals
Outscored 20th place by 12 goals.
But Sakic has the goalscoring edge not to mention the pretty clear defensive edge, probably a bigger gap than what Jagr has over Sakic in overall production. I don't fault anyone for picking one or the other, but the 2 seasons are very close.
While Kip and Jan were nothing special as offensive talents, they were a good fit for Jagr's style. Like how Kunitz worked really well for Crosby (though not to that degree, and Kunitz is better than those 2). Hell, Kip Miller ended up reuniting on Jagr's line with the capitals! Jagr seemed to like playing with those 2, and wouldn't you know, he ended up having his best season with them.
Either way though, I don't think it's as simple as "X Player is more talented, therefore Y player's totals will bump up" sometimes one player is a better fit for whatever reason than another and it shows in the results, regardless of talent level.
jj cale
Registered User
correct me if i'm wrong on teams like sweden but weren't they actually amateurs and not actually pros being passed off as amateurs by giving them " millitary" designations like the u.s.s.r guys? if not then yes.................strip them too. I think the C.S.S.R was doing the same thing too as they were under the Soviets thumb. Those guys were pros and everyone knows it.................hockey was their profession.What about the CSSR? Sweden? Just give all the medals to just the USA and Canada you mean?
It was cheating and they shouldn't have been getting away with those shenanigans. I hate to hit the Czechs with anything as they had no choice in the matter but the soviet medals for sure should be stripped IMO.
Dennis Bonvie
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Yep, Soviets playing against amateurs was like the USA sending the dream team to play basketball.
The Panther
Registered User
Man, that 2000-01 Sakic season gets a lot of love around here. I think people might be elevating it a bit due to the fact that a Cup was lifted at season's end.
Just taking the regular season as the regular season, I don't see any real argument for Sakic's season being better than Jagr in 1999. Sakic's club scored 28 more goals than Jagr's, had six guys that outscored the 3rd best scorer on Jagr's team, had five Hall of Famers (four skaters), and he still couldn't match Jagr's scoring.
Just taking the regular season as the regular season, I don't see any real argument for Sakic's season being better than Jagr in 1999. Sakic's club scored 28 more goals than Jagr's, had six guys that outscored the 3rd best scorer on Jagr's team, had five Hall of Famers (four skaters), and he still couldn't match Jagr's scoring.
A Swedish poster can correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand(I've always been oddly fascinated by European leagues) the Swedish league only became fully professional in the mid-late 70s. Sweden boycotted hockey at the 1976 olympics.
MadLuke
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Hockey can become strange, no one would say a quarterback had a lesser season because his team scored more points than the other quarterback....
You want the effect of your elite offensive player for his team to score a lot of goals..
Quality of linemate and blueline outlet pass obviously matter and is a valid point, Forsberg healthy all year and play with Hedjuk-Tanguay, maybe Sakic goes down to 100 pts that year.
The type American College basketball player that made the Olympics were not really amateur in a relevant sense (time and resource dedicated to practicing their sports) or maybe I have an overrated (or the other way around too cynical if you value education, but when you are at a high level of sport that seem a much better education than anything model can buy) view of those programs.
You want the effect of your elite offensive player for his team to score a lot of goals..
Quality of linemate and blueline outlet pass obviously matter and is a valid point, Forsberg healthy all year and play with Hedjuk-Tanguay, maybe Sakic goes down to 100 pts that year.
Was Paul Kariya working a 9-5 job in 1994 ? How many Canadian hockey players at the Olympics did ?
The type American College basketball player that made the Olympics were not really amateur in a relevant sense (time and resource dedicated to practicing their sports) or maybe I have an overrated (or the other way around too cynical if you value education, but when you are at a high level of sport that seem a much better education than anything model can buy) view of those programs.
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