Ulf Samuelsson

[Canadiens1958]

Bryan Marchment

If you ask me, he was one of the best and most valuable 4th liners in the league from 1997 to 2004.

take it for what it's worth, but his offensive GVT was over 1.0 in five of those 8 seasons, and his defensive GVT was positive in seven of 8. In six of eight, his total GVT was over 1.1.

A true "replacement level" player will tend to hover above and below 0 in GVT and end up close to 0 for their career (see Clarke Wilm, Jeff Toms, Bill Huard, Dan Bylsma, Rico Fata, Cam Stewart, Rick Rypien, Denny Lambert for a few recent forward examples)

The true goons who end up with career GVTs of -10 and worse are another class of player altogether. Domi is up at +9.7, around Chris Nilan and miles ahead of guys like Brashear, Dave Brown, etc.



It was stupid, and it’s not an excuse. If my theory about it is correct, he didn’t have that “stop valve” that prevented him from “getting a piece of the guy no matter what”. But the way some people talk about him, he was simply sadistic.



I agree. Marchment did execute excellent bodychecks too, but obviously the knee hits were happening too often and they were a result of getting “beaten”. End result = knee on knee hit = it’s fair to call him dirty. My point is only about the opinions people have of his intent.

Still you are talking about the 5-6 dman on weak teams:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/marchbr02.html

Not sure what you mean by "stop valve" by players with skating deficiences are slow to re-act adjust in all phases of the game.

Example would be Igor Ulanov. Like Bryan Marchment he could make the big hit - Lindros. But at other times he would miss completely. This was true for Marchment as well.

BTW - from memory the Gartner hit was a crosscheck.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Survivors

Probably.



Probably true. The SI article I posted basically alluded to this too. Whatever the reason, it was dangerous to the other players to have a guy "without a stop valve" on the ice, and I think it says something about NHL culture that he had a long career of injuring other players on dirty plays (whether reactions or not), and was allowed to keep doing it because "he answered the bell" and "stuck up for his teammates." And more relevant to this thread, it's ridiculous that Ulf is treated by a certain part of the hockey establishment as somehow uniquely dirty.

The basic issue is hockey survivors - players who manage long careers despite certain skating deficiencies.

Long and varied list of defensemen fit the bill - Bryan Marchment, Ulf Samuelsson, have been listed here yet you can go back to various players like Terry Harper, the Plager brothers, Gary Suter, and others.

The reason they stay around and injury players comes down to the fact that replacing them would bring in other players who overall are less skilled and more reckless.

The changes that have happened in junior hockey and the NHL, if sustained, with the benefit of a few rule tweaks will reduce the role of such players within 10 years.

 

[billybudd]

There is a lot of guys who liked to use their stick, Lemieux was no saint, but he's far from the dirtiest player of all time.

I didn't say he was the dirtiest player of all time. I said he was way dirtier than Ulf Samuelsson, which he was.

And no, there were not a lot of guys who liked to use their stick to perform dentistry on players who have not engaged them, with no prior incitement taking place.

 

[billybudd]

Second point, I am surprised that more of us who play hockey don’t have more… not condonement, but “sympathy†for Marchment. It’s been a long time since I played contact hockey but when you step up on someone you have to get a piece of the guy. If he starts to swerve around you, it’s instinctual to stick out whatever you can to stop him or slow him down. I think Marchment’s recurring knee hits were the result of not being able to control this instinct like most other players could (perhaps because of his lower mobility). You don’t go into that situation saying “I’m going to take this guy’s knee outâ€, you go into it thinking “I’m going to stand this guy upâ€, then all in two tenths of a second he has swerved and you suddenly don’t have him lined up as well as you think you did, and your reaction is little more than instinctual.

Strickly speaking I do understand when guys react and "take a piece" of a guy who swerves to avoid them. Someone mentioned MacQuaid. Great example of a reaction play that went bad.

But I saw enough of Marchment to see that's not what he was doing. He lined the knee up on the hit (sometimes his shoulders weren't even in position for a check), crosschecked people in the face, speared them. That **** was on purpose.

Telling me otherwise is like telling me Torres was just "finishing his check" on Hossa, Richards was just finishing his check on Booth or Cooke was just finishing his check on Savard. BS. I know the difference between a hit gone wrong and a guy looking to alter another guy's life by intentionally doing something dirty that didn't need to be done.

 

[seventieslord]

Strickly speaking I do understand when guys react and "take a piece" of a guy who swerves to avoid them. Someone mentioned MacQuaid. Great example of a reaction play that went bad.

But I saw enough of Marchment to see that's not what he was doing. He lined the knee up on the hit (sometimes his shoulders weren't even in position for a check), crosschecked people in the face, speared them. That **** was on purpose.

Telling me otherwise is like telling me Torres was just "finishing his check" on Hossa, Richards was just finishing his check on Booth or Cooke was just finishing his check on Savard. BS. I know the difference between a hit gone wrong and a guy looking to alter another guy's life by intentionally doing something dirty that didn't need to be done.

what did you think of Moore on Naslund?

 

[rkhum]

I agree.

Neely even seems like a baby in some interviews, falling back on the Ulf crutch, singing Glory Days, and what coulda been.

"I would call Tie and thank him if I had his number"

Ya, that tells you that Tie didn't suckerpunch him for you - seeing as you aren't friends and it's years later. Ulf was dirty, Tie was dirty, hockey's dirty, **** happens.

Ulf was dirty, dirty. But he has been vilified several 100's of % past what his dirtiness was worth.

Agreed 1000%.

Ulf got a bad rap because he hit the pretty face Boston golden boy with a clean hit.

The HoF had been disgraced and diluted, permanently, because a player if Neelys caliber us in.

No way does Cam belong. He played in the live puck era where even Brian Bradly was a ppg forward.

His stat lines are good but not HoF caliber especially when compared to his era.

Cam got in due to the violin sympathy and the hockey worlds typical overrating if Boaron athletes.

Now we have to let Lindros in, because if Cam is in then every incomplete truncated career must be.

Shame that Kevin Stevens is not in; his credentials far exceed Cam but he doesn't have a good enough violin story nor that Boston media fanfare.

 

[billybudd]

what did you think of Moore on Naslund?

Same thing I thought of Cooke on Savard, which is to say it was gutless and pointless.

 

[Killion]

I called Tie Domi a "poor" hockey player because for a large part of his career (the part where he had issues with Ulf), I don't think he was NHL calibre either offensively or defensively. He had a roster spot because he fought. He did work on his game enough to be passable at taking a regular shift in the bottom 6 later on.

...and thank you for pointing that out. As a life-long Leafs fan, I cringe whenever I come across my compatriots who absolutely deify the guy. I usually just laugh, tell them their utter lack of hockey smarts & knowledge embarrasses the colors, Trailer Parks showing, go away, your bothering me... but they never do.

My point is only about the opinions people have of his intent.

...ya, good point, context. We obviously dont know, but the fact that he was a rather lugubrious plodder on a pair of blades "try'n ta keep up" without going all Neanderthal says much. I dont think it was deliberate in so much as it was desperate, born from frustration, fear of being caught so he just "lashed out" with a knee, a straightarm, clothesline, whatever, never intending injury but fully expecting & indeed inviting retaliation in the form of fisticuffs, nullifying his disadvantage, coming out on top, delivering a licking in order to keep on ticking... albeit like a badly packed crate of highly volatile semtex with Acme stenciled on the side but still. Hey ho.

 

[seventieslord]

Now we have to let Lindros in, because if Cam is in then every incomplete truncated career must be..

With the main difference, of course, being that Lindros was one of the top-5 players in hockey for his 6-year peak, and Neely was maybe top-15 in his.

Only Jagr and Hasek were conclusively better than Lindros from 1994-1999. Chelios, Bourque, Forsberg, Roy, Brodeur & Lidstrom could have arguments too, but not in my opinion.

In 1990-1995, Neely's best six-season period, he was definitely behind Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Bourque, Chelios, Lemieux, Gretzky, Lafontaine, Hull, Oates, Yzerman, Gilmour and Messier, with Sakic, Turgeon, Recchi, Bure, Fedorov, Coffey & MacInnis being arguable. And that's all based on per-game performance. If we're talking about what they actually did, you gotta think guys like Mogilny, Francis, Roenick, Fleury, Shanahan, etc accomplished more than him in this time frame, too.

...and thank you for pointing that out. As a life-long Leafs fan, I cringe whenever I come across my compatriots who absolutely deify the guy. I usually just laugh, tell them their utter lack of hockey smarts & knowledge embarrasses the colors, Trailer Parks showing, go away, your bothering me... but they never do.

He was an elite 4th liner from 1997-2004, yes or no?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tie Domi

With the main difference, of course, being that Lindros was one of the top-5 players in hockey for his 6-year peak, and Neely was maybe top-15 in his.

Only Jagr and Hasek were conclusively better than Lindros from 1994-1999. Chelios, Bourque, Forsberg, Roy, Brodeur & Lidstrom could have arguments too, but not in my opinion.

In 1990-1995, Neely's best six-season period, he was definitely behind Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Bourque, Chelios, Lemieux, Gretzky, Lafontaine, Hull, Oates, Yzerman, Gilmour and Messier, with Sakic, Turgeon, Recchi, Bure, Fedorov, Coffey & MacInnis being arguable. And that's all based on per-game performance. If we're talking about what they actually did, you gotta think guys like Mogilny, Francis, Roenick, Fleury, Shanahan, etc accomplished more than him in this time frame, too.



He was an elite 4th liner from 1997-2004, yes or no?

Elite 4th liner - one of the better oxymorons coined this decade.

Basically TDMM is fairly accurate in his assessment. Take 1994-2004 and Domi does not make the elite teams like Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, New Jersey.

Tie Domi was drafted 2nd round, 27th overall in 1988. He had produced some interesting numbers in Peterborough especially in the playoffs when his numbers improved:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/domiti01.html

He was perceived as having Tiger Williams, Chris Nilan, Bob Probert type upside. Never happened because he was a fairly weak skater who weakened as his ice time increased.

Like many players out of their depth he developed survival skills and techniques. With a heathy dose of media driven personna he managed to last for over 10 seasons. More power to him.

 

[overpass]

I thought Domi was a reasonable 4th liner in terms of skating a regular ES shift, even setting aside his enforcer/ agitating role. But he was still a limited player. He wasn't an option for either special teams unit, where you often want your 4th line players to be able to contribute. He wasn't a good option to move up in the lineup and play with better players or against better players in case of injury. And he had zero upside in terms of ever developing into a top-9 player - often the 4th line is a place to give a young player a chance to develop. So he would fail under the "Up or out" model.

 

[TieClark]

Domi was the greatest player to ever lace em up

 

[BubbaBoot]

When did I say they were fighters? I just said they were not some wimps that got pummeled everytime they were out on the ice.

There ain't a whole lot of wimps in the NHL.....except those that turtle after starting trouble.

BTW, there's a reason why Randy Burridge had the nickname of 'Stump'...he was 5'9" / just under 190 lbs. Just a wee tad smaller than Samuelsson....about 3 inches and 20 lbs. smaller.

 

[seventieslord]

Elite 4th liner - one of the better oxymorons coined this decade.

Basically TDMM is fairly accurate in his assessment. Take 1994-2004 and Domi does not make the elite teams like Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, New Jersey.

Tie Domi was drafted 2nd round, 27th overall in 1988. He had produced some interesting numbers in Peterborough especially in the playoffs when his numbers improved:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/domiti01.html

He was perceived as having Tiger Williams, Chris Nilan, Bob Probert type upside. Never happened because he was a fairly weak skater who weakened as his ice time increased.

Like many players out of their depth he developed survival skills and techniques. With a heathy dose of media driven personna he managed to last for over 10 seasons. More power to him.

Oxymoron or not... it was true. Domi was better than the 4th liners on the opposition almost every night. If you selectively choose the best and deepest years of Colorado, Dallas, Detroit and New Jersey he may not make their rosters, but many years he would have, as well.

Media hype doesn't cause a player to get put in the lineup for 10 minutes a game 1000 times.

 

[RECsGuy*]

Ulf Samuelsson was a turtle. If he did fight, it was against non-fighters, and when it concerned players his size or real enforcers, he'd just hold arms/bear hug/duck his head/skate away.

And the best part? He wore a visor, giving him every possible barrier to hide behind.

A coward.

Bob Probert? He was tough. Ulf? He's a *****.