Tuukka Rask vs Tim Thomas

[Dingo]

Peak Thomas, prime and overall career Rask.

correct

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't know why this is suppose to be a positive for Thomas. Price had a mediocre team in front of him and played against a strong team, Thomas had a strong team in front of him and was facing a mediocre team. Switch them and Price still allows fewer goals, but there would be a sizable gap.

As an aside, that was a pretty underrated year for Price. Quite possibly (probably?) should have gotten the Vezina that year but without checking I doubt he finished top five.



I find it strange that how many goals a team scores in the playoffs does not seem to factor in much when it comes to people declaring that a goaltender carried a team. Not that it's really been claimed in this specific thread but it is interesting. Comes up with Hasek allegedly carrying Buffalo in 1999 as well. Of course Hasek 1.0 was at least an excellent goaltender. Hasek 2.0 not so much.

Price was 5th. Got one first place vote.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Wasn't this poll at like 9 to 2 for Rask at one point? I'm actually really surprised and disappointed by that. I thought that most people had "gotten over it", for lack of a better term. I have an idea for a poll...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Wasn't this poll at like 9 to 2 for Rask at one point? I'm actually really surprised and disappointed by that. I thought that most people had "gotten over it", for lack of a better term. I have an idea for a poll...

Must be because you have been outdueled in the discussion so far.

Guess it's a tough take to swallow when claiming a two-time Vezina winner and Conn Smythe winner really wasn't even an NHL caliber goalie.

You may have over-played your hand.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Must be because you have been outdueled in the discussion so far.

Guess it's a tough take to swallow when claiming a two-time Vezina winner and Conn Smythe winner really wasn't even an NHL caliber goalie.

You may have over-played your hand.

Pish posh...

I don't think it's possible to outduel someone about a sport by telling them to read the paper haha

You wanna take a crack at my Moog vs Lemelin question? (if you didn't see it, no obligation...just curious because you probably lived through them both)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Pish posh...

I don't think it's possible to outduel someone about a sport by telling them to read the paper haha

You wanna take a crack at my Moog vs Lemelin question? (if you didn't see it, no obligation...just curious because you probably lived through them both)

Of course I lived through them both.

But no, I don't wanna take a crack at your Moog vs Lemelin question. Of no interest to me. I trust your judgement as the goalie aficionado.

I'm only interested in your bad takes on Tim Thomas and Eddie Shore.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Of course I lived through them both.

But no, I don't wanna take a crack at your Moog vs Lemelin question. Of no interest to me. I trust your judgement as the goalie aficionado.

I'm only interested in your bad takes on Tim Thomas and Eddie Shore.

Well, if you're gonna be a Sour Howard about it...I'm going to run for office in the state you live and declare your birthday to be "Alan Eagleson and Ulf Samuelsson Celebration Day"...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well, if you're gonna be a Sour Howard about it...I'm going to run for office in the state you live and declare your birthday to be "Alan Eagleson and Ulf Samuelsson Celebration Day"...

I'm from Connecticut so many here will be happy about the Ulf Samuelsson Day.

You'll need to be a Democrat too. Unless you're running in Greenwich.

 

[VanIslander]

Don't try to be most popular.
Try to be right.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Don't try to be most popular.
Try to be right.

Best to be both.

Doesn't hurt to try.

 

[BraveCanadian]

All I am seeing in this thread is that scouts still have no idea what they are talking about with goalies. Even in hindsight.

Goalies are just weird, it is ok to admit it.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I voted Thomas. Regardless of how slow he was to develop he was dynamite for a few years. Rask probably had a most consistent NHL career though.

 

[Dingo]

I voted Thomas mostly to further irk Farkas, but also because it was too close to call.

In retrospect, they played significant time together for three seasons, and their save%s were within one point of each other, That negates team defence.( .926 to .925 for Rask)

Thomas had two similarly great years previous to Rask really being in there. Rask had 8 really solid ones afterwards. I do not care one bit about either's last season or two. Brodeur was also bad, so was Jagr, so was basically everyone who is competitive and wanted to hang on.

The level each reached is very similar, imo. Thomas likely looked a bit better, peakwise, due to a bit of a dearth in goalie depth. Rask had a twice as long career in terms of quality seasons. Thomas had the Conn Smythe, while outduelling Luongo, who had mad hype coming in.

I'm going to remove my vote, if that is an option, as I did it for nefarious reasons. I am a sustained peak guy, and I really can't put Rask over Thomas, but can accept he was likely his equal...... and, of course, had a much longer career.

Tim Thomas was a good goalie. Doesnt matter if he looked right (I loved his style, personally) you dont play 3 seasons equal to a great, and two more seasons the same level or better on that same team, by accident. Add him to the list with Adam Oates, Brett Hull, Holmstrom and about 1 billion others who took a long time to get it together and were left to the late draft rounds, or even ignored completely. Doesnt have to be scouting's fault - some people take longer. Good for them for persevering. Like Lennox Lewis said regarding Mike Tyson, "He came along faster than me, I came along like fine wine"

shit happens.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oates came in at 23 and had like a 15 year run of impact seasons.
Hull came in at 23 and had like a 15 year run of impact seasons.
Holmstrom came in at 24 and was a consistently strong role player for a decade.

Thomas came in at 32 and had three non-consecutive impact seasons and was out of the league after seven seasons...five as a starting goalie.

The one billion others...? Well, I have all night for those too. But I bet they're not similar to this situation.

By naming Adam Oates and dusting one's hands and going, "ah, some people are late bloomers" is exactly the wrong attitude to have. That's what I said in the other thread about "convenience". Forget critical thought, the stance that Adam Oates' situation is anything like Thomas' isn't even a reasonable thing to conclude.

If you live alone and every day and you get home from work, you put your keys on the key hook. But...every day when you wake up, your keys are sitting on the table. Would you go, "well...I got my keys...so it doesn't matter...off to work I go" or would you be a little more curious about it than that? I'd be freaked out.

I don't know who you root for or if you play fantasy hockey or whatever, but...Jake Guentzel...whole career spent next to Crosby. Do you know if he's undraftable in fantasy next year? Is he better off? Worse off? Or the same? And why?

What he does and how he does it is crucial to that. It's crucial to know if he has adaptability to another team, another situation, another power play setup, etc.

Those answers are more predictable than most fans think. Same thing with QBs and RBs in football. Perfection isn't the bar, but if you look at the process, you can be right more often than not.

Throwing it out as, "eh, he was just a late bloomer...like everyone else." If a kid doesn't start shaving until 16 years old, he's a late bloomer - sure. If he doesn't start shaving at 31 - he has a problem. Get that grown ass adult to a doctor...he has a disease.

I'm not asking anyone to sit there and look at his skating, I'm not throwing out conspiracy theories about his illegal pads from the 2011 Final, I'm not saying his Vezinas should be revoked...but I'm going to ask for some critical thought and logical consistency within your (royal "your") own criteria if you're gonna use it. Or, explain why we need to break from that consistency...

We may have created a near-fatal anchoring bias with that 2012 list. We have ample time to actually do the work to make it better. Equating Tim Thomas with Adam Oates is...I don't know what to say that won't end this unintentionally rudely...it's just not...helpful...(?) for a lot of reasons.

 

[McGarnagle]

I suspect a lot of Bruins fans feel the same way, but if we're talking over an 82 game season, Rask, but if it's one game with everything on the line, Thomas.

Rask had some tremendous playoff runs though, and I'd have to say he's incredibly unlucky that the biggest decisive games always wound up being disasters (or circumstances would cause him to bail out which added to the narrative of his reliability in big moments). Mostly it wasn't his fault (though that first goal in game 7 against Philly which gave the flyers momentum to overcome the 3-0 deficit was one of the softest goals I've seen in my entire life). And Thomas lost 3 game sevens in his own right.

Still, having watched both, I end up with the same feeling. Though major caveat being that they're play in front of the Bruins' defense under Claude Julien's system. Like if we're starting an expansion team with expansion staff defensemen and David Quinn or someone coaching then picking Thomas would be insane.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Oates came in at 23 and had like a 15 year run of impact seasons.
Hull came in at 23 and had like a 15 year run of impact seasons.
Holmstrom came in at 24 and was a consistently strong role player for a decade.

Thomas came in at 32 and had three non-consecutive impact seasons and was out of the league after seven seasons...five as a starting goalie.

The one billion others...? Well, I have all night for those too. But I bet they're not similar to this situation.

By naming Adam Oates and dusting one's hands and going, "ah, some people are late bloomers" is exactly the wrong attitude to have. That's what I said in the other thread about "convenience". Forget critical thought, the stance that Adam Oates' situation is anything like Thomas' isn't even a reasonable thing to conclude.

If you live alone and every day and you get home from work, you put your keys on the key hook. But...every day when you wake up, your keys are sitting on the table. Would you go, "well...I got my keys...so it doesn't matter...off to work I go" or would you be a little more curious about it than that? I'd be freaked out.

I don't know who you root for or if you play fantasy hockey or whatever, but...Jake Guentzel...whole career spent next to Crosby. Do you know if he's undraftable in fantasy next year? Is he better off? Worse off? Or the same? And why?

What he does and how he does it is crucial to that. It's crucial to know if he has adaptability to another team, another situation, another power play setup, etc.

Those answers are more predictable than most fans think. Same thing with QBs and RBs in football. Perfection isn't the bar, but if you look at the process, you can be right more often than not.

Throwing it out as, "eh, he was just a late bloomer...like everyone else." If a kid doesn't start shaving until 16 years old, he's a late bloomer - sure. If he doesn't start shaving at 31 - he has a problem. Get that grown ass adult to a doctor...he has a disease.

I'm not asking anyone to sit there and look at his skating, I'm not throwing out conspiracy theories about his illegal pads from the 2011 Final, I'm not saying his Vezinas should be revoked...but I'm going to ask for some critical thought and logical consistency within your (royal "your") own criteria if you're gonna use it. Or, explain why we need to break from that consistency...

We may have created a near-fatal anchoring bias with that 2012 list. We have ample time to actually do the work to make it better. Equating Tim Thomas with Adam Oates is...I don't know what to say that won't end this unintentionally rudely...it's just not...helpful...(?) for a lot of reasons.

Well, Tim Thomas had two seasons above .930 save percentage which is very good for an NHL goalie. Also why he won two Vezina trophies.