Blue Jays Discussion: Turn out the lights, the season's over.

[Garlando]

Also would like to note that the Jays have a need for a long term CF with an abundance of catching plus a reliever in Giles they want to move.

The Braves have a need for long term catcher and a pen arm with 2 CF prospects coming in Pache and Waters.

I would love to trade McGuire and Giles for Pache or Waters. Knowing that the Braves wouldn’t have a lot of interest in McGuire then maybe there is a deal of Jansen for Pache or Waters, which I would reluctantly agree to. Jansen was a draft pick under AA’s regime so he may have more interest in Jansen.

Jansen would be hard to give up but Waters or Pache would be huge to add to this lineup. Guerrero, Bichette, Biggio, Gurriel, McGuire and Pache/Waters would be a good core lineup with Grichuk, Tellez and some free agents to support. Plus you have the next wave in Hiraldo, Martinez, Groshans, Kirk, Moreno, etc. It both McGuire hits then great, if not you have Kirk, Moreno and Adams who could come along. McGuire’s defense will still be a huge plus.

I do like the idea of looking to fill the CF position long term this offseason and Pache would obviously represent an intriguing option if available! His elite D would really change the complexion of the OF and help the pitching staff. I have been contemplating a couple other options too and thought I would share a couple:

- Jordyn Adams from the Angels is super intriguing as a raw athlete with top of the scale tools and likely could be had in a potential deal as they push to contend in the Trout era. Adams + Patrick Sandoval for a Giles + Reese Mcguire sort of deal I think could be reasonable for both sides. Adams is known as a top of the scale 80-grade runner with many expecting him to be a plus defender in CF with reps, At the plate, he receives plus raw power grades, and handled himself well in the single-A Midwest league in which was 2.2 years younger than league average. He managed a solid but unspectacular 110 wRC+, but that's actually pretty impressive considering Adams rawness as a young former two-sport athlete. He showed a quality approach with an 11.7% walk rate, and also showed average contact skills with a 22% strikeout rate supported by an 11.1% swinging-strike rate. To me, he would be a high-upside gamble that could really pay off with proper development. Sandoval is just a guy I'm high on as a guy that I feel could be an asset with his high-end bat missing skills. Inconsistent command has held him back, but his swinging-strike rates have been elite throughout his minor league career and even during his MLB cup of coffee last year. He posted a 13.5% swinging-strike rate in the majors on the back of a very very good changeup and a sneaky good curveball and slider. For reference, his 13.5% swinging-strike would have tied Stephen Strasburg for 12th best in the majors last year if he had enough innings to qualify, and would have bested the likes of Yu Darvish, Clayton Kershaw, Trevor Bauer, and Walker Buehler. I can't tell you what his value is around the league but Sandoval wasn't and isn't considered a high-end prospect (Fangraphs has a 40 FV slapped on him) on public sites and if he can be acquired reasonably, he would be another high-upside gamble in a potential deal that I would love to have on the Jays.

- Yonathan Daza in COL could be a cheap option as he has yet to establish himself in the majors in a crowded Rockies OF, and yet he's shown some Kevin Pillar type qualities in plus D and an aggressive and contact-oriented offensive approach. He's coming off a .364/.404/.548 slash line with 11 HRs and 12 SBs over 418 PAs that was worth a 132 wRC+. Yes, this was inflated by the cozy hitting environment of the PCL and juiced AAA ball, but he's posted quality contact numbers throughout his minor league career and is known as a true plus defender in CF with MLB.com's prospect watch grading his fielding and arm strength with 65 and 70 grades respectively. Even if he's just a 4th OFer, he would give the organization a different look then they currently have.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[phillipmike]

Why Vlad Jr. Fell Short

 

[phillipmike]

I do like the idea of looking to fill the CF position long term this offseason and Pache would obviously represent an intriguing option if available! His elite D would really change the complexion of the OF and help the pitching staff. I have been contemplating a couple other options too and thought I would share a couple:

- Jordyn Adams from the Angels is super intriguing as a raw athlete with top of the scale tools and likely could be had in a potential deal as they push to contend in the Trout era. Adams + Patrick Sandoval for a Giles + Reese Mcguire sort of deal I think could be reasonable for both sides. Adams is known as a top of the scale 80-grade runner with many expecting him to be a plus defender in CF with reps, At the plate, he receives plus raw power grades, and handled himself well in the single-A Midwest league in which was 2.2 years younger than league average. He managed a solid but unspectacular 110 wRC+, but that's actually pretty impressive considering Adams rawness as a young former two-sport athlete. He showed a quality approach with an 11.7% walk rate, and also showed average contact skills with a 22% strikeout rate supported by an 11.1% swinging-strike rate. To me, he would be a high-upside gamble that could really pay off with proper development. Sandoval is just a guy I'm high on as a guy that I feel could be an asset with his high-end bat missing skills. Inconsistent command has held him back, but his swinging-strike rates have been elite throughout his minor league career and even during his MLB cup of coffee last year. He posted a 13.5% swinging-strike rate in the majors on the back of a very very good changeup and a sneaky good curveball and slider. For reference, his 13.5% swinging-strike would have tied Stephen Strasburg for 12th best in the majors last year if he had enough innings to qualify, and would have bested the likes of Yu Darvish, Clayton Kershaw, Trevor Bauer, and Walker Buehler. I can't tell you what his value is around the league but Sandoval wasn't and isn't considered a high-end prospect (Fangraphs has a 40 FV slapped on him) on public sites and if he can be acquired reasonably, he would be another high-upside gamble in a potential deal that I would love to have on the Jays.

- Yonathan Daza in COL could be a cheap option as he has yet to establish himself in the majors in a crowded Rockies OF, and yet he's shown some Kevin Pillar type qualities in plus D and an aggressive and contact-oriented offensive approach. He's coming off a .364/.404/.548 slash line with 11 HRs and 12 SBs over 418 PAs that was worth a 132 wRC+. Yes, this was inflated by the cozy hitting environment of the PCL and juiced AAA ball, but he's posted quality contact numbers throughout his minor league career and is known as a true plus defender in CF with MLB.com's prospect watch grading his fielding and arm strength with 65 and 70 grades respectively. Even if he's just a 4th OFer, he would give the organization a different look then they currently have.

I would obviously prefer higher end talent closer to the majors in Pache and Waters, i think we all would, but Adams and Sandoval would be good gets too. I would sign up for Adams + Patrick Sandoval for a Giles + Reese McGuire. Sandoval is a very intriguing arm, I believe the Jays were in on Adams back in the 2018 draft... When Manfred announced that the Jays would be taking "Jordan", Adams and his family got big eyed and were on the verge of getting up to give hugs



7:18 mark

Daza is a name im not familiar with but i do like the plus defender aspect and his ISO has been improving steadily at different levels over the last 3 years.

 

[Leafin]

Is Odorizzi enough of an upgrade over some of the other non QO starters available? ~40th pick is right around where we got Bichette.

If it was Cole or Strasburg I could see it. Odorizzi or Wheeler? Do we really see those guys performing significantly better than a Keuchel, Porcello type?

 

[phillipmike]

Is Odorizzi enough of an upgrade over some of the other non QO starters available? ~40th pick is right around where we got Bichette.

If it was Cole or Strasburg I could see it. Odorizzi or Wheeler? Do we really see those guys performing significantly better than a Keuchel, Porcello type?

I ask that question and the answer i always get is no, he isnt.

I would take;

Keuchel/Roark/Pineda/Hamels/Gibson/Tehran/Miley/Porcello/Hill/Nova/Wacha
5th pick in the 2nd round
1.617M in MLB Draft Pool money
500k in MLB International Pool money

Over

Jake Odorizzi at some cost of 15-20M per for 3-5 years

Wheeler is a bit harder for me. If we are talking Wheeler at under 20M and/or 4 years or less then i might take the risk. Anything more, then i say no.

 

[phillipmike]

These are the 10 best teams of the decade

Honorable Mentions: 2018 Astros, 2015 Blue Jays, 2011 Cardinals, 2013 Cardinals, 2015 Cubs, 2019 Dodgers, 2010 Giants, 2014 Giants, 2016 Indians, 2015 Mets, 2011 Rangers, 2014 Royals, 2019 Twins, 2018 Yankees, 2019 Yankees

9. 2011 Philadelphia Phillies
This was the team of the overwhelming rotation: When you have Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt and Cole Hamels, how do you ever lose? The Phillies rarely did in the regular season and seemed primed to cruise through the postseason, but they ran into that lunatic Cardinals team that would end up winning the World Series in the most absurd fashion imaginable. Halladay did his part in an epic Game 5 NLDS battle with Chris Carpenter, but once Ryan Howard hit a ground ball to second base and limped down the baseline for the final out, the Phillies near-dynasty was over. They haven’t been back to the playoffs since.

 

[Discoverer]

I ask that question and the answer i always get is no, he isnt.

I would take;

Keuchel/Roark/Pineda/Hamels/Gibson/Tehran/Miley/Porcello/Hill/Nova/Wacha
5th pick in the 2nd round
1.617M in MLB Draft Pool money
500k in MLB International Pool money

Over

Jake Odorizzi at some cost of 15-20M per for 3-5 years

Wheeler is a bit harder for me. If we are talking Wheeler at under 20M and/or 4 years or less then i might take the risk. Anything more, then i say no.

I wouldn't include ALL of those pitchers here, but it's definitely a fair point. It would be interesting if they bring in a couple non-QO upgrades and then target a bigger fish next year when the pick is (hopefully) more middle-of-the-pack.

Whatever... just make long-term moves to make the team better, damnit.

 

[jetsforever]

It would be awesome if we could snag Grandal

 

[kb]

It would be awesome if we could snag Grandal

Makes the catcher trade rumours suddenly more understandable.

 

[phillipmike]

I wouldn't include ALL of those pitchers here, but it's definitely a fair point. It would be interesting if they bring in a couple non-QO upgrades and then target a bigger fish next year when the pick is (hopefully) more middle-of-the-pack.

Whatever... just make long-term moves to make the team better, damnit.

agreed. Just want upgrades and I think we will get it. Raising the floor of this team will be great, hopefully with short term deals so we don’t make mistakes like the Mets and Phillies did last offseason.

 

[phillipmike]

It would be awesome if we could snag Grandal

Grandal is a good player but I prefer Jansen and/or McGuire at the minimum than 31 year old catcher likely to decline who will get a minimum of 60M over 4 years or maybe the Martin contract.

I like that we are talking to a lot of FAs. I think it’s strategic, Jays like getting their work done early and they are connecting with every free agent in hopes some vets are panicked from the previous offseason and perhaps will sign cheaper deals now, rather than potentially being left out in the cold. Not a bad strategy if it works.

 

[Eyedea]

The amount of surplus value that comes with Jano's contract... requires a pretty elite pitcher to come back in the return.

 

[Discoverer]

Grandal is a good player but I prefer Jansen and/or McGuire at the minimum than 31 year old catcher likely to decline who will get a minimum of 60M over 4 years or maybe the Martin contract.

I like that we are talking to a lot of FAs. I think it’s strategic, Jays like getting their work done early and they are connecting with every free agent in hopes some vets are panicked from the previous offseason and perhaps will sign cheaper deals now, rather than potentially being left out in the cold. Not a bad strategy if it works.

It wouldn't be Grandal OR Jansen and McGuire, though. It would be Grandal AND whichever of the young catchers they keep AND the return for whichever catcher they trade.

I don't want them to trade Jansen at all, but if the return is huge (an awesome controllable pitcher or CF) and you can get Grandal on a solid deal, you have to at least look into it.

 

[Canada4Gold]

It wouldn't be Grandal OR Jansen and McGuire, though. It would be Grandal AND whichever of the young catchers they keep AND the return for whichever catcher they trade.

I don't want them to trade Jansen at all, but if the return is huge (an awesome controllable pitcher or CF) and you can get Grandal on a solid deal, you have to at least look into it.

On that same note though, there's a monetary cost to signing Grandal too. One could easily say the other side of that is Jansen, McGuire AND the money we would have spent on Grandal to spend on a pitcher or CF. It comes down to what the's best use of that money and what we could get in return for one of the catchers.

 

[dredeye]

It would be awesome if we could snag Grandal

Why? We are strong at catcher

 

[Muston Atthews]

Why? We are strong at catcher

If we can move one of our catchers for another position of need and sign Grandal for $$$, why not?

 

[deletethis]

Why was Grandal only able to get what was effectively a 1 year deal last season?

 

[Discoverer]

On that same note though, there's a monetary cost to signing Grandal too. One could easily say the other side of that is Jansen, McGuire AND the money we would have spent on Grandal to spend on a pitcher or CF. It comes down to what the's best use of that money and what we could get in return for one of the catchers.

Absolutely agree. And there's nothing out there to suggest they're trying to go one direction or the other, just that they're having multiple discussions about different options.

I like that approach way more than saying "We need a pitcher so we're signing a pitcher in free agency and that's that."

 

[613Leafer]

On that same note though, there's a monetary cost to signing Grandal too. One could easily say the other side of that is Jansen, McGuire AND the money we would have spent on Grandal to spend on a pitcher or CF. It comes down to what the's best use of that money and what we could get in return for one of the catchers.

There have to be guys willing to sign here though. We're not addressing all our pitching and CF needs in free agency. Some of these issues will need to be addressed by trades.

A trade like this helps us maintain a very solid duo at C, while bringing in a potentially rock solid longterm SP or CF to address a major need.

 

[BlueForever75]

Grandal makes sense. You can pedal Jansen or McGuire (most likely Jansen for a larger return) to fill other holes and still have a catcher to be his eventual replacement down the road. Remember its a free addition meaning no outgoing assets and an upgrade.

I would be all for getting Grandal and peddling Jansen for either a good young starting pitcher or OF with control.

 

[Cor]

I don’t want to trade DJ.

McGuire sure.


I think it’s more likely the Jays are just checking in with most/all of the top FA’s.

 

[Discoverer]

I don’t want to trade DJ.

McGuire sure.


I think it’s more likely the Jays are just checking in with most/all of the top FA’s.

Exactly... talk to everyone, find out what the costs will be for various options, and put a plan together.

I'm as high as anyone on Jansen, but I don't understand how anyone could be opposed to signing Grandal. He's averaged 5 fWAR per season over the last five years. Even if you don't believe in pitch-framing or something, he's still been a consistent 4 fWAR player. He's an elite defensive catcher and a switch-hitter with a 118 career wRC+ and no platoon split (114 from the left side, 119 from the right).

That's a star player, and there's no QO. If he's open to a reasonable deal, you sign him, plug him into the middle of the lineup, and figure out the rest.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I don’t have any issue with exploring your options, and I’d be relatively ok with trading McGuire depending on the return because I’m not a huge believer in how real his season was last year offensively. If someone was willing to overpay sure. Jansen however I’m pretty high on, and I don’t expect anyone would be willing to pay enough that the Grandal, McGuire, and the Jansen return is anywhere near Grandal, Jansen, and the McGuire return or Jansen, McGuire and the reallocated Grandal money. I’d want a legit top 2 young starting pitcher under control for at least 4 years. I don’t think we’d get that. We have about 6 4-5 guys already, and about 6 more tweener guys we can plug in after that. Just diminishing returns unless the guy is a top 2 guy it’s not worth trading Jansen IMO. A Jansen CF equivalent might be more intriguing because we have little to nothing there and little to nothing in the system.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Exactly... talk to everyone, find out what the costs will be for various options, and put a plan together.

I'm as high as anyone on Jansen, but I don't understand how anyone could be opposed to signing Grandal. He's averaged 5 fWAR per season over the last five years. Even if you don't believe in pitch-framing or something, he's still been a consistent 4 fWAR player. He's an elite defensive catcher and a switch-hitter with a 118 career wRC+ and no platoon split (114 from the left side, 119 from the right).

That's a star player, and there's no QO. If he's open to a reasonable deal, you sign him, plug him into the middle of the lineup, and figure out the rest.

Major League Leaderboards » 2019 » Catchers » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

Grandal is a savage.