True #1 D-man - Why not?

[ULF_55]

I really don't care about the past right now, everyone here knows my year of birth ...

I only have time for the Leafs next #1 defender.

Is it possible that I never see another?

Treliving has 2 jobs to do, get the defender and get the missing center.

Perhaps it is beyond him?

 

[torontoblood]

Within the last 30 years the leafs at certain times, when they were more competitive than usual always had a above average defensive as a unit/group, for example the burns era with rouse/macoun/Lefebvre/ellett, then a few seasons later during the Quinn era, the leafs had a decent group of defensemen such as yuskevich/Markov/kaberle/leetch/svehla/McCabe. Even now in the recent era, the leafs had decent/respectable D like muzzin, Ekman-Larsson, Brodie , McCabe, tanev, giordano and rielly.

But decent doesn’t mean elite, a defenseman who is the best one of his team doesn’t mean he will be the best D of another team. There is no automatic equivalency, historically the best and most competent Dmen of the leafs would have been relegated to the 2nd pairing at best on legitimately elite championship squads like the 2000 devils (stevens/niedermayer/Rafalski), 2001 Avalanche( Bourque, Foote, Blake) 2002 Red Wings ( chelios, lidstrom), 2007 Ducks (pronger and niedermayer), 2013 blackhawks (Keith, seabrook ), or 2020-21 lightning (hedman, mcdonagh )

and it’s true that they never had a true pronger/lidstrom/niedermayer/hedman caliber defenseman on their roster. A blueliner who clearly belongs in the elite tier of defensemen across the league without question. Unfortunately these ones are extremely hard to find in the draft, they’re impossible to acquire through trade and they rarely become unrestricted free agents in their prime years because teams who have these kind of defensemen will give them lucrative longterm contracts beforehand to keep them on their teams as long as possible. These are the true reasons why any team, let alone the maple leafs struggles to obtain them.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I really don't care about the past right now, everyone here knows my year of birth ...

I only have time for the Leafs next #1 defender.

Is it possible that I never see another?

Treliving has 2 jobs to do, get the defender and get the missing center.

Perhaps it is beyond him?

The big moves are going to have to be made after the cap increases.

The team is basically cursed. Combine being cursed with poor decision making and loyalty to the wrong types of players and the fact is the Leafs won't win a Cup any time soon.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Within the last 30 years the leafs at certain times, when they were more competitive than usual always had a above average defensive as a unit/group, for example the burns era with rouse/macoun/Lefebvre/ellett, then a few seasons later during the Quinn era, the leafs had a decent group of defensemen such as yuskevich/Markov/kaberle/leetch/svehla/McCabe. Even now in the recent era, the leafs had D like muzzin, Brodie , McCabe, tanev, giordano and rielly.

But decent doesn’t mean elite, a defenseman who is the best one of his team doesn’t mean he will be the best D of another team. There is no automatic equivalency, historically the best and most competent Dmen of the leafs would have been relegated to the 2nd pairing at best on legitimately elite championship squads like the 2000 devils (stevens/niedermayer/Rafalski), 2001 Avalanche( Bourque, Foote, Blake) 2002 Red Wings ( chelios, lidstrom), 2007 Ducks (pronger and niedermayer), 2013 blackhawks (Keith, seabrook ), or 2020-21 lightning (hedman, mcdonagh )

and it’s true that they never had a true pronger/lidstrom/niedermayer/hedman caliber defenseman on their roster. A blueliner who clearly belongs in the elite tier of defensemen across the league without question. Unfortunately these ones are extremely hard to find in the draft, they’re impossible to acquire through trade and they rarely become unrestricted free agents in their prime years because teams who have these kind of defensemen will give them lucrative longterm contracts beforehand to keep them on their teams as long as possible. These are the true reasons why any team, let alone the maple leafs struggles to obtain them.

Leafs had a chance to get a #1 and it wouldn't have cost them any assets at all which is why I made one of the few OPs I have started on this forum.

Meh, I keep bringing this up because it still shocks me that the Leafs didn't make the move for Pietrangelo when St.Louis walked away. For $2M more a year than they paid Reilly they could have had him. Then to rub salt in the always fresh wounds as a Leaf fan, he wins another Cup in Vegas two years later. I have been a Vegas fan for some time so it was the next best thing for him to go there and win on a team I enjoyed watching but it was bittersweet.

For all the bad contracts Dubas handed out, this was the one move I said at the time could as best possible, equalize those overpayments and lack of depth. He could play 26+ minutes a game, play on the PP and is effective. This franchise just doesn't make sense to me. They need to stop playing video game EA Sports and realize that the best players available must be grabbed when you can grab them. No assets to pay? Exponentially better.

 

[torontoblood]

Not sure why the Leafs cannot draft and develop a stud, certified #1 dman. It's been tougher the last few years since we've either picked late or traded our 1st altogether. There just hasn't been any luck with finding hidden gems in the 2/3rd rounds.

There are lots of teams with iffy drafting and developing track records, what cannot be debated is that most teams that go on a run and win a cup have that #1, all purpose stud on the back-end.

I don’t think Amateur scouting should be blamed for the inability to find an elite defenseman in the draft. a sports league Draft is a crapshoot itself. It’s mostly luck, nothing is guaranteed. Alexandre daigle was supposed to become the next star forward of the league back then, he became the biggest draft bust of nhl history instead.

And even the teams with well above average developing track records have luck on their side and make mistakes. Also Sometimes it’s not how the team develops their players but how the players themselves progress. Competent and Well managed organizations with a winning Team culture can’t always turn shit into chocolate. Many young players despite their skill, talent and physical abilities have unfortunate tragedies that happen to them ( multiple injuries, cancers, drug/alcohol addiction problems, autoimmune diseases, car accidents etc ) or they have inherently genetic/ ingrained personality flaws that will hinder their career in sports, for example they are slow and ineffective learners with limited reasoning capacities ( their mind can’t process information smartly, quickly and effectively and their brain can’t connect the dots between themselves ), they have tunnel vision (they can’t read, make and anticipate plays), they’re lazy and lack discipline because they are people with high time preferences and can’t delay gratification, they fold under pressure, they’re mean/selfish with bad attitudes and don’t get along with no one, etc

 

[torontoblood]

Leafs had a chance to get a #1 and it wouldn't have cost them any assets at all which is why I made one of the few OPs I have started on this forum.

Meh, I keep bringing this up because it still shocks me that the Leafs didn't make the move for Pietrangelo when St.Louis walked away. For $2M more a year than they paid Reilly they could have had him. Then to rub salt in the always fresh wounds as a Leaf fan, he wins another Cup in Vegas two years later. I have been a Vegas fan for some time so it was the next best thing for him to go there and win on a team I enjoyed watching but it was bittersweet.

For all the bad contracts Dubas handed out, this was the one move I said at the time could as best possible, equalize those overpayments and lack of depth. He could play 26+ minutes a game, play on the PP and is effective. This franchise just doesn't make sense to me. They need to stop playing video game EA Sports and realize that the best players available must be grabbed when you can grab them. No assets to pay? Exponentially better.

The traditional inability of the leafs to capitalize on possible/potential trade opportunities is frustrating. I was wondering in the Quinn era, before the lockout and hard salary cap restrictions, why the leafs at the time couldn’t find a way to exploit their financial might to their advantage and easily add elite players on their rosters. In that era, we should have had a stacked team just like the 2002 Red Wings once. MLSE printed money just like it does now, so lack of funds wasn’t no problem. And Quinn as GM had the intention to improve the team by any means necessary every year with free agent signings and big trade deadline acquisitions. Maybe the other team GMs didn’t want to make deals with us out of spite. Or maybe we had bad luck and the leafs were just as cursed as they are now.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think Kaberle was much worse than a couple of those listed for other teams, but yes, Salming and then back to Horton.

What, no love for Phaneuf?

I wonder if some of it may also be because of how bad the overall teams were, that limited growth.

The thing that distorts Kaberle a bit is his career peak didn’t really line up with the peak of the Pat Quinn era Leafs, but was hitting his highest gear by the time the team was in decline post lockout.

The best defenseman I’ve ever seen in a Leafs jersey was the couple of months of Brian Leetch in spring 2004. Always kinda took him for granted as Ranger yada yada but as a 35 year old on the Leafs he was breathtakingly good.

 

[Stephen]

Both have long contracts with us and are clearly respected by the coach. In short, they will be here for some years. At worst, wouldn't a few buy their jerseys because they are the new, shiny object?

My statement remains as written.

Don’t think defensive defensemen are ever popular like that. Not like you grew up seeing people with 34 Macoun or 2 Lefebvre or 3 Rouse jerseys walking around.

 

[ACC1224]

Both have long contracts with us and are clearly respected by the coach. In short, they will be here for some years. At worst, wouldn't a few buy their jerseys because they are the new, shiny object?

My statement remains as written.

You see lots of Rielly jerseys, seems more than Nylander but not close to Matthews,Tavares or Marner.
Biggest surprise I’ve never seen a Max Domi jersey. Strangest are a couple (man&wife?)I’ve seen a few times both with Engvall ones.
Expecting to see Tanev or McCabe is a little out of touch.

 

[Taylor Halls Teeth]

I really don't care about the past right now, everyone here knows my year of birth ...

I only have time for the Leafs next #1 defender.

Is it possible that I never see another?

Treliving has 2 jobs to do, get the defender and get the missing center.

Perhaps it is beyond him?

Mitch walks because he holds out for $14M and overplays his hand. Florida lets Ekblad walk because of cap reasons. Has a resurgence after signing back in Canada.. Not a lot of real options for a true #1 because clubs don't trade top pairing guys for Fraser Minton and a 2nd and you don't often find them in Danford range.

But to get a RD who is better than a bottom pairing filler, they have the pieces and the need is there. There are dream deals but to improve is not at all a stretch. For C I want O'Reilly but any bottom 6 c center than Kampf makes them more competitive.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The thing that distorts Kaberle a bit is his career peak didn’t really line up with the peak of the Pat Quinn era Leafs, but was hitting his highest gear by the time the team was in decline post lockout.

The best defenseman I’ve ever seen in a Leafs jersey was the couple of months of Brian Leetch in spring 2004. Always kinda took him for granted as Ranger yada yada but as a 35 year old on the Leafs he was breathtakingly good.

I'm old enough to have seen both Horton and Salming in their primes.

So there!

 

[Hallonbroder]

Every Cup dynasty has had a #1 and many others who just went deep repeatedly. Leafs are basically poorly managed and owned for 50 years. They don't like dominant defenseman because Leaf fans like to buy jerseys of flashy players, almost as if compensating for their boring lives I don't know lol.

I see many Marner and Nylander jerseys around town but few Tanev or McCabes. Weird.

Lindstrom, Pronger, Chelios. All have Cups. Pronger won a Cup on a shocking season with Anaheim after a lengthy successful career Internationally and a Finals with the Oilers. Both Chelios and Lindstrom have multiple Cups , were shutdown and in control. THAT is how you win come playoffs when the game becomes a grind.

Leafs have improved and if they had 3 McCabes and 3 Tanevs, they could have the forward group of any team in the league and be a perennial Cup threat IMO even though neither would be described as a #1.

To me a #1 is about a player who can eat big minutes against any opposition line in any situation and the coach and fans will not have sweaty palms for their entire shift. If they provide offense, great. It's the positioning, competitive battle and sacrifice in them. Offense is a bonus and can be a simple wrister to the net or quick transition. As long as they can get the puck out for the counter attack, it's a victory for their team.

I think back to the NJ teams of the 1990s who were stacked in the back end and it made them nearly unbeatable with Brodeur in net. They won multiple Cups with no flashy forwards to speak of but there were disgusting on the back end, a trove of riches, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Danekyo. The team kept the winners in a NJ jersey because, well, they win. When players lose, they get rid of the players because, well, they lost.

Imagine that defense and team structure with the goaltending the Leafs have been getting? Leafs would have a G.A.A that is a full 1 goal less per game than they have now.

Who’s Lindstrom?

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I think it's a combination of team priorities, poor draft strategy, and improper development.

Leafs have never made drafting defensemen their piority. They prefer to draft and develop forwards. Probably because forwards have a more predictable development curve than either defensemen or goalies.

So they target forwards and trade the surplus for defensemen and goalies.

You look at a team like Anaheim. They're a defenseman producing factory. They clearly make drafting and developing the back end a priority and the results are there to prove it.

The systems these teams play probably have something to do with it as well.

The Leafs have never been a trap team. Even in the dead puck era they still tended to play a heavy forecheck with a focus on scoring goals over preventing them. So they target developing offensive defensemen who are really nothing more than a forward in disguise.

I'm not convinced it's the right strategy, and their lack of success suggests it is not, but I doubt it will change so long as selling jersey's is top priority over winning cups.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

For what it's worth I thought Muzzin was pretty close to a number one the first couple years he was here and he did come 11th in Norris voting the first year here.

Yuskevich might have become one if blood clots didn't derail his career.

 

[tmlms13]

Your standards for one sound like you want a top 10 D in the NHL.

In case you didn't notice there are more than 10 teams in the NHL

The reason you haven't seen on is because they aren't easy to find.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Your standards for one sound like you want a top 10 D in the NHL.

In case you didn't notice there are more than 10 teams in the NHL

The reason you haven't seen on is because they aren't easy to find.

And most plays for the org that drafted and developed them.

 

[Sypher04]

Both have long contracts with us and are clearly respected by the coach. In short, they will be here for some years. At worst, wouldn't a few buy their jerseys because they are the new, shiny object?

My statement remains as written.

So you don’t care that it’s ridiculous, got it.

Your previous comment openly questioned how would Tanev and McCabe have less jerseys out there than Marner and Nylander (like that shouldn’t be the expectation) and was somehow used as the basis for talking down about other Leaf fans.

Thats a far cry from “wouldn't a few buy their jerseys because they are the new, shiny object?” which I have no doubt has happened

 

[Mess]

Leafs have not had a true #1 NHL Dman since Borje Salming.

Even Harold Ballard understood the need for a true #1 Dman.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Leafs have not had a true #1 NHL Dman since Borje Salming.


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Even Harold Ballard understood the need for a true #1 Dman.

I thought he was "a chicken Swede who won't last a month in the NHL"?

 

[leafs in five]

Kenny Jonsson

 

[Leafsfan74]

For what it's worth I thought Muzzin was pretty close to a number one the first couple years he was here and he did come 11th in Norris voting the first year here.

Yuskevich might have become one if blood clots didn't derail his career.

Yeah I thought of both of those guys. It's a shame with Muzzin, the team was so soft around him. What's the point of bringing in Cup winners if you surround them with perennial playoff failures?

 

[HockeyVirus]

If any of these "stud dmen" played here they wouldn't be considered one here. Makar is amazing, but man he has Jake Gardiner syndrome and our fans could not handle it.