GDT: Training Camp discussion - Rifai and Murray on waivers -- Steeves clears

[Racer88]

Not only is this not really related to my post, but you still seem to be mixing up goaltending and defense.

To be fair you are confusing a good team with one that gets bounce first round in the playoffs every year for 3/4 of a decade.

 

[conFABulator]

It's not that they aren't capable NHL players, it's the price for cap relief. All teams around the league are aware of Toronto's cap issues ... they're not going to help us out of a bind for free.

The Mathieu Joseph trade from this summer is a good example. Similar abilities/cap hit/term to Kampf/Jarnkrok.

Toronto doesn't really have cap issues. They can ice a very good opening night roster by signing two PTOs, demoting a few to the Marlies, putting a couple on IR, and possibly risking the loss of Timmins to waivers while replacing him with Rifai.

Some breathing room would be nice for sure and I am in favour of trading some or all of Kampf, Jarnkrok and Liljegren because we can replace them in house at lower cost. I just don't think we are under pressure to do it quickly.

Up front we can ice Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Domi, Knies, Pacioretty, McMann, Robertson, Holmberg, Lorentz, Reaves, and Cowan. We won't be missing Kampf and Jarnkrok. Dewar will come back and we have Grebenkin, Minten and a couple others as call ups.

Our D still runs Reilly, Tanev, McCabe, OEL, Benoit, Rifai, and eventually Hakanpaa. Most importantly moving these guys out would give us about $6M in space. Get a D man? Parayko? Anderson?

 

[Zalos]

Anyone know if Tavares' injury will stop him from playing from the get go this year?

 

[Racer88]

some just can’t accept that this group simply isn’t good enough…..
Good yes just not good enough

Anyone know if Tavares' injury will stop him from plaing from the get go this year?

Nope, I think his age will do that

 

[notbias]

Nope, I think his age will do that

You're in for a shock when you find out how old the two D we signed for long term are.

 

[Jojalu]

A week to go.

I still have very little idea what they plan to do.

I think I would hate if they moved Robertson to make room for Pacs..

 

[ACC1224]

A week to go.

I still have very little idea what they plan to do.

I think I would hate if they moved Robertson to make room for Pacs..

I don't think you need to worry about that, they'll both be on the team.

 

[ACC1224]

Will they be back on the ice today?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Again, it's not really fair to compare this upcoming season with a three year window. For example, you list both Hyman and Bunting as the comparable and they never played together. Engvall was decent, but not a real contributor in the year when we had Hyman.

I wasn't listing players that played together. I was listing examples of the second tier forwards we've had during that time. The group of second tier forwards this year doesn't really surpass any of those individual years unless we see meaningful advancement in our youth. And Reaves pretty much single-handedly sinks our third tier.

"Benoit gives us more than Muzzin" absolutely if we are talking 2022-23 when Jake played four games, probably even more than the year before when he gave us 47. He didn't play 1.5 of the years in this three year window. No doubt, when healthy and available Muzzin was much better than Benoit and probably any other dman we have.

Even with injuries, Muzzin's impact in 2021-2022 was in a whole other universe from Benoit. But I don't know why you're talking about injuries in the first place. It's not really apples to apples to assume perfect health this year, and then compare it against hindsight injury impacts. For all we know, Tanev is going to get a career-ending injury in the first game.

I can't dispute we have some uncertainty in the goaltending. I like the tandem and it's probably better than our end of Campbell, Mrazek, Murray and Samsonov years.

It might end up better than those years, because goaltending is very unpredictable, but our approach and choices themselves aren't any better heading into the season.

Which of those three years do you think was the best?

Depends what's being looked at. 2021-2022 was our best record, but all three years probably surpass our team quality this year, barring unexpected surprises.

 

[leafan11]

Jankrok and Tavares are back at practice very curious how the lines shake out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

To be fair you are confusing a good team with one that gets bounce first round in the playoffs every year for 3/4 of a decade.

No, I just don't confuse team quality and past playoff outcomes as the same thing.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841492289304014860

Doesn’t seem like they’re going to LTIR Hakanpaa and Dewar if they’re practicing in regular sweaters. Somethings gotta give.

 

[Fogelhund]

Interesting that Hakanpaa and Dewar appear ready to go.

""

 

[SprDaVE]

Interesting that Hakanpaa and Dewar appear ready to go.

Dewar was said to be ready by mid/late training camp so not a big surprise.

Hakanpaa might still be rehabbing for awhile. We'll see if he gets into a game.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841490853753168056

 

[conFABulator]

I wasn't listing players that played together. I was listing examples of the second tier forwards we've had during that time. The group of second tier forwards this year doesn't really surpass any of those individual years unless we see meaningful advancement in our youth. And Reaves pretty much single-handedly sinks our third tier.

Even with injuries, Muzzin's impact in 2021-2022 was in a whole other universe from Benoit. But I don't know why you're talking about injuries in the first place. It's not really apples to apples to assume perfect health this year, and then compare it against hindsight injury impacts. For all we know, Tanev is going to get a career-ending injury in the first game.

It might end up better than those years, because goaltending is very unpredictable, but our approach and choices themselves aren't any better heading into the season.

Depends what's being looked at. 2021-2022 was our best record, but all three years probably surpass our team quality this year, barring unexpected surprises.

My initial comment to you was that I didn't agree with your "nowhere close" response to someone saying this upcoming season is the best team of the Matthews era. I don't see how anyone can say "nowhere close".

I could totally accept that maybe we have had a better team in one or more of the years but it's close...and certainly not "nowhere close"

I asked with team was better and you gave me a three year window and when I tried to respond to that less than precise answer by assembling an all-star team of players across those three years as a comparison to what we have this single year.

If you take the 2020-2021 team as the best and I probably would pick that one then I think we can see they are close and cases could be made for either team being the stronger one.

Both teams have the core four. I would argue that Matthews, Nylander and Marner are better than they were four years ago and that Tavares is less of a player. The rest of the forwards on that team (in order of TOI) were Hyman (the 20 goals version, not the 50+ goal version), Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Thornton, Spezza, Engvall (12 points in 42 game version), Simmonds, Galchenyuk, Vesey, and Boyd. My quick compare would be:

Hyman over Knies (not by much)
Kerfoot behind Domi
Mikheyev equal to Jarnkrok
Thornton equal to McMann
Spezza equal to Kampf
Engvall equal to Holmberg
Simmonds equal to Reaves (whatever)
Galchenyuk behind Robertson
Vesey behind Lorentz
Boyd behind Cowan

I didn't spend a lot of time on this but I think however you slice it these teams are close in forward depth and I would argue better constructed as a team now not trying to fit Thornton, Spezza, Simmonds and Vesey in every night.

As for D (in order of TOI)

Reilly equal to Reilly
Brodie equal to Tanev
Holl behind OEL
Muzzin ahead of McCabe
Dermott behind Benoit
Bogosian equal to Hakanpaa
Sandin equal to Liljegren

That feels pretty close too. In goal Andersen was not good and Campbell took the starting job. Along with Hutcheson and Rittich they put up a .908 save percentage (when league averages were higher). I would put money on Woll, Stolarz, Murray and Hildeby doing better than that this year.

So, my quick analysis is that F are a wash, perhaps better due to construction of the lines, D could arguably be better this year, and G should be better.

I might be wrong and I welcome the discussion but it's close and that's really my point.

 

[Fogelhund]

""

 

[Antropovsky]

That's really not true. Defense was a priority from February 2019 to 2023. It was ignored last year until a misguided scramble at the deadline that made us worse, and then became a focus again this offseason. Even with the focus, it's still unlikely we see better defensive results than 2020-2023.

This is really the main difference. A lot depends on them.

This is true, except it's been years, not months.

2020-2023.

Not only is this not really related to my post, but you still seem to be mixing up goaltending and defense.

You didn't say the Leafs got worse from their deadline deals? See bolded from your quote. How do you know? You think how a team performs from March onward is indicative of what a team would do over the course of an entire season?

Leafs allowed less goals this past playoffs than the three series they played in the two years prior. That has no bearing on your assessment of the acquisitions? Defense doesn't seem like it was the problem in the playoffs, it appears the misguided effort worked just fine. Unless you expected the defense to play with Marners jersey and score and produce more than 1 goal and 3 points?

 

[Dekes For Days]

My initial comment to you was that I didn't agree with your "nowhere close" response to someone saying this upcoming season is the best team of the Matthews era. I don't see how anyone can say "nowhere close". I could totally accept that maybe we have had a better team in one or more of the years but it's close...and certainly not "nowhere close"

That wasn't me. That was Rare Jewel. I just responded to your question "What team was better than this one in the Matthews era?". I agree that "nowhere close" is a stretch.

I asked with team was better and you gave me a three year window and when I tried to respond to that less than precise answer by assembling an all-star team of players across those three years as a comparison to what we have this single year.

I answered with 3 years because we were better in each of those 3 years. Nowhere did I "assemble an all-star team of players across those three years as a comparison to what we have this single year". You were discussing our second tier of forwards, so I gave examples of past players we've had in that tier; noting that this year's group doesn't surpass the group we had in any of those individual years unless there's meaningful advancement in our youth.

Hyman over Knies (not by much)
Kerfoot behind Domi
Mikheyev equal to Jarnkrok
Thornton equal to McMann
Spezza equal to Kampf
Engvall equal to Holmberg
Simmonds equal to Reaves (whatever)
Galchenyuk behind Robertson
Vesey behind Lorentz
Boyd behind Cowan

What Knies has shown so far is not all that close to Hyman.
Domi is not better than Kerfoot.
Kampf is not equal to Spezza.
Reaves is not equal to Simmonds.
Lorentz doesn't even have a contract, and isn't an upgrade on anybody. Cowan is likely headed back to the OHL.
Robertson is really the only current roster player with an argument of being better than a 2020-2021 counterpart, but it doesn't make up for the rest.
Hopefully we see big progression in our youth to push us ahead, but there's really no argument for it being better (than even our 3rd best forward group of those 3 years) at this point in time.

Reilly equal to Reilly
Brodie equal to Tanev
Holl behind OEL
Muzzin ahead of McCabe
Dermott behind Benoit
Bogosian equal to Hakanpaa
Sandin equal to Liljegren

Holl and Dermott are not behind OEL and Benoit. Muzzin is a decent step above everybody not named Rielly. And while I like Tanev, there are questions around if 35-year old Tanev can live up to prime Brodie; not to mention the uncertainty around Hakanpaa coming off what some considered a career-threatening injury.

That feels pretty close too. In goal Andersen was not good and Campbell took the starting job. Along with Hutcheson and Rittich they put up a .908 save percentage (when league averages were higher). I would put money on Woll, Stolarz, Murray and Hildeby doing better than that this year.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue Woll/Stolarz as a better quality tandem going into this season than Andersen/Campbell would have been going into 2020-2021. Andersen was still considered a starting goalie at that point, and had a lot more experience. Campbell wasn't well established, but had some decent past results, played well after joining us the previous year, and had 11th overall pedigree. Ideally, our goaltending results this year are better, but that's really just hoping.

 

[Rare Jewel]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841490853753168056

Right at home in the Muskoka area...

 

[ACC1224]

I remember when this thread was about Training Camp.......squirrels.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You didn't say the Leafs got worse from their deadline deals? See bolded from your quote. How do you know?

I already explained my position:
"I believe the additions made us worse because we had a worse record after, worse defensive results after, the additions didn't play very well as individuals, and we lost and had one of our worst underlying playoff performances in part due to glaring transition struggles that seemed to pop up when we overloaded with defensemen with poor transition ability."

Leafs allowed less goals this past playoffs than the three series they played in the two years prior. That has no bearing on your assessment of the acquisitions?

The acquisitions weren't the cause of the lesser goals against. Woll was, and he was already here. Our defensive play and transition got worse.

 

[Sypher04]

What Knies has shown so far is not all that close to Hyman.
Domi is not better than Kerfoot.
Kampf is not equal to Spezza.
Reaves is not equal to Simmonds.
Lorentz doesn't even have a contract, and isn't an upgrade on anybody. Cowan is likely headed back to the OHL.
Robertson is really the only current roster player with an argument of being better than a 2020-2021 counterpart, but it doesn't make up for the rest.
Hopefully we see big progression in our youth to push us ahead, but there's really no argument for it being better (than even our 3rd best forward group of those 3 years) at this point in time.

Kerfoot is more versatile but he’s not better than Domi, especially not in a top 6 role.
I’m no Kampf fan but he’s better for the required role than Spezza was. Just overpaid.
Simmonds was garbage, Reaves is similarly garbage. Neither would have a chance of being a regular on merit.

Holl and Dermott are not behind OEL and Benoit. Muzzin is a decent step above everybody not named Rielly. And while I like Tanev, there are questions around if 35-year old Tanev can live up to prime Brodie; not to mention the uncertainty around Hakanpaa coming off what some considered a career-threatening injury.

Holl and Dermott are firmly behind OEL and Benoit. You could not be more wrong on this.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue Woll/Stolarz as a better quality tandem going into this season than Andersen/Campbell would have been going into 2020-2021. Andersen was still considered a starting goalie at that point, and had a lot more experience. Campbell wasn't well established, but had some decent past results, played well after joining us the previous year, and had 11th overall pedigree. Ideally, our goaltending results this year are better, but that's really just hoping.

By name recognition sure. That said Andersen really only played well here when we sucked. His play steadily got worse as the team around him improved which is infuriating

 

[IPS]

Holl and Dermott are not behind OEL and Benoit.

What are we expecting from Holl this year James?

Think he's gonna be able to crack it being a full timer on the incredibly elite Detroit Red Wings this year?

How bout Dermott too? Think he's gonna be able to get more than 17 minutes a game on the insanely elite Arizona Coyotes?

It's actually so hilarious how wrong you've been about Toronto's D all these years, literally none of your opinions have held up to the test of time when they've moved onto other teams.

 

[Fogelhund]

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