GDT: Training Camp discussion - Camp now open

[SprDaVE]

I don’t know about that tbh.

He 100% is and should be. He's cheap, versatile and has shown plenty of growth in his game -- especially in the physicality aspect.

If this team plays Lorentz or Reaves over him, they are incredibly stupid. I refuse to believe they are.

 

[ULF_55]

In the grand scheme of things, Sundin is equally a nobody. A guy who played hockey that 99.9% of the world has never heard of.

Good thing we're on a hockey board then, where 99.9% of knowledgeable posters know who he is.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Good thing we're on a hockey board then, where 99.9% of knowledgeable posters know who he is.

Remember when he rreeefused a trade and signed in canvoucer ppepperidge farm remmebers

 

[Hellcat]

Even without it, no Team is going to move a talent like that before the playoffs.

Fixed it ...

lol, not at all. Like most males he's a mommy's boy but he's also now a grownup so he'd be fine if he had to go.
Staying here is important to him, he's been told for years to leave(first time was when Marleau was signed).
He's looking for the legacy of being a career Leaf, top 2 scorer and hopefully cup champ.

You say that with confidence, you know the family?

 

[Hellcat]

He 100% is and should be. He's cheap, versatile and has shown plenty of growth in his game -- especially in the physicality aspect.

If this team plays Lorentz or Reaves over him, they are incredibly stupid. I refuse to believe they are.

Cheaper version of Jarnkrok? Possibly equally effective? Holmberg can play all 3 forward positions, like Jarnkrok..

That will never happen. You can't be successful as a coach trying to make someone into something they are not.

I figure it will take to the 20 game mark before we start to see everything Berube is trying to implement, and he might bench someone for a period or a few shifts along the way, but he won't healthy scratch anyone.

I was thinking the same thing but I was expecting around the 25 to 30 game mark..

 

[Hellcat]

I don’t think it’s just a systemic issue, it’s also a personel issue.

I agree with this but probably not for the same reasons. Keefe was a huge part of it, the fact that there has not been a difference maker on a team of 20 players, except for the TB series where Matthews was a beast, over the last 8 years, is odd, disappointing, leaf like? Most cup winners the stars shine and there is almost always a playoff wonder who comes out of nowhere and helps carry the team...usually the goalie stands on his head.

 

[notDatsyuk]

And McDavid is not a 69 goal scorer and Draisaitl is not a winger (although he plays the wing sometimes) ... apples oranges.

If Nylander successfully transitions to centre, a better comparison to McDavid and Drai might be Willy and Matty (still a step below, but closer in style/position).

Something tells me that Marner is more likely to cave than Nylander was. Mitch has never lived more than a couple of hours from home, I think having Mom and dad and family around is important to him. I cant imagine him picking another city... maybe I'm reading something that is not there but I get the sense he is a Daddy's boy.

Maybe. It might depend on who's in charge: his dad or his agent.

 

[ULF_55]

Remember when he rreeefused a trade and signed in canvoucer ppepperidge farm remmebers

I remember the Leafs didn't want him back.
This was discussed here and Leafs weren't really interested in him coming back.

I do however have a contact who is in sports medicine and family friends with x-Red Wing execs and he has told me a couple things, example Flyers - Kings deal years back, Flyers scouts in his office discussed trying to get Kiprusoff, and the story that the Wings and Leafs had a deal for Sundin, and the Wings players were talking about having him in the line-up. Sundin refused to go.

But hockey fans know who Sundin is, but how many remember Christiaan Barnard?

 

[shaner8989]

Reading between the lines

Grebyonkin will start in the A
Cowan might get a few games depending on Jarnkrok health
Rafai and Timmins are battling for the 7th spot
Knies Matthews Marner are a lock
Pacioretty and Tavares are a lock likely with McMann or Robertson on the other wing
Nylander and Domi look like a duo

 

[Hellcat]

If Nylander successfully transitions to centre, a better comparison to McDavid and Drai might be Willy and Matty (still a step below, but closer in style/position).

Your probably right, Willie being a two time 40 goal scorer..

 

[notbias]

If Nylander successfully transitions to centre, a better comparison to McDavid and Drai might be Willy and Matty (still a step below, but closer in style/position).

Agreed.

And Draisaitl and Nylander both suck at keeping the puck out of their own net.

 

[ULF_55]

I agree with this but probably not for the same reasons. Keefe was a huge part of it, the fact that there has not been a difference maker on a team of 20 players, except for the TB series where Matthews was a beast, over the last 8 years, is odd, disappointing, leaf like? Most cup winners the stars shine and there is almost always a playoff wonder who comes out of nowhere and helps carry the team...usually the goalie stands on his head.

For all the flack the Core gets, no one outside the Core has stepped up.
Just check out production every playoffs.
Only against Montreal, where Kerfoot piggybacked on Nylander to get into the top 2.

Where is that "where did he come from" player?

 

[613Leafer]

For all the flack the Core gets, no one outside the Core has stepped up.
Just check out production every playoffs.
Only against Montreal, where Kerfoot piggybacked on Nylander to get into the top 2.

Where is that "where did he come from" player?

Our depth has been awful in the playoffs.

Kerfoot - 4G / 9A / 13P in 30 games
Mikheyev - 2G / 2A / 4P in 19 games
Engvall - 0G / 4A / 4P in 17 games
Hyman - 5G / 8A / 13P in 32 games (but of course now he's a playoff god for Edmonton)
Bunting - 2G / 3A / 5P in 13 games
Jarnkrok - 1G / 2A / 3P in 18 games

Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but ROR with 3G / 6A / 9P in 11 games is the only secondary guy I can recall who truly stepped up (and big surprise, that's also the year we had our sole playoff win). Domi had a decent playoff last year, but not as good as ROR and it's a smaller sample size. Spezza produced well for a 4th liner, but was still just that, a 4th liner.

So I think 100%, our core forwards have been disappointing in the playoffs relative to other star players and relative to their own regular season performances (except Nylander, who's performed at about the level you'd hope/expect given his regular season performances).

But our secondary/depth forwards have been abysmal for us offensively too, and probably more so than our core. Compare that to what Florida got out of Bennett, Lundell, and Rodrigues, what Vegas got out of Barbashev, Karlsson, Smith, and Roy, or what Colorado got out of Nichushkin, Kadri, and Lehonen (if looking at the more secondary core/quality 3rd line players). Part of that is lack of $$ available, due to the core, to upgrade those parts of the roster, but I'd say they've underachievers regardless of that.

 

[Hellcat]

For all the flack the Core gets, no one outside the Core has stepped up.
Just check out production every playoffs.
Only against Montreal, where Kerfoot piggybacked on Nylander to get into the top 2.

Where is that "where did he come from" player?

For me the Leafs decided to give an ungodly amount to the top 4 or 5 players, peace, that was their strategy, some say you can't win that way. Some said that you could never win with a Euro Capt. enter Lidstrom... some say you can't win with a 10mil + player ... enter Eichel.

You absolutely can win with this core but the GM/President has to be honest with themselves about the teams deficiencies and build the best pro scouting team in the world to help find you value contracts that will find you what the team lacks. That is the "where did he come from" player you mention. They lack power forwards that can score, maybe Knies is that guy, they lacked defence that can stop the cycle and down low plays, block shots and clear the net, maybe OEL, McCabe, Tanev, Hakenpaa are those guys. They lacked a legit 1A goalie, maybe Stolarz and Woll are those guys... The team has a great on ice product but a horrible off ice execution... I think the Pro scouting is as much or more responsible for the teams failures over the last 8 years as the Coach/GM do. We have not found a legit impact player in Free agency since JT.... certainly have not found a "where did he come from" player in free agency in the last 8 years.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Our depth has been awful in the playoffs.

Kerfoot - 4G / 9A / 13P in 30 games
Mikheyev - 2G / 2A / 4P in 19 games
Engvall - 0G / 4A / 4P in 17 games
Hyman - 5G / 8A / 13P in 32 games (but of course now he's a playoff god for Edmonton)
Bunting - 2G / 3A / 5P in 13 games
Jarnkrok - 1G / 2A / 3P in 18 games

Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but ROR with 3G / 6A / 9P in 11 games is the only secondary guy I can recall who truly stepped up (and big surprise, that's also the year we had our sole playoff win). Domi had a decent playoff last year, but not as good as ROR and it's a smaller sample size. Spezza produced well for a 4th liner, but was still just that, a 4th liner.

So I think 100%, our core forwards have been disappointing in the playoffs relative to other star players and relative to their own regular season performances (except Nylander, who's performed at about the level you'd hope/expect given his regular season performances).

But our secondary/depth forwards have been abysmal for us offensively too, and probably more so than our core. Compare that to what Florida got out of Bennett, Lundell, and Rodrigues, what Vegas got out of Barbashev, Karlsson, Smith, and Roy, or what Colorado got out of Nichushkin, Kadri, and Lehonen (if looking at the more secondary core/quality 3rd line players). Part of that is lack of $$ available, due to the core, to upgrade those parts of the roster, but I'd say they've underachievers regardless of that.

We haven't been able to score in the playoffs, period. Not the core, not the depth guys, nobody. But let's not be too hard on these guys, if you get outgoalied every year then you get outgoalied every year, whaddyagonnado?

 

[waitin425]

Hi Guys...coming in peace (so hard to do). How is Patches looking? I will always cheer for him to succeed. Just a solid all around human. Do you project him making the team? Seems like a decent 3rd line scoring threat and vet presence if you have room.

 

[SprDaVE]

Hi Guys...coming in peace (so hard to do). How is Patches looking? I will always cheer for him to succeed. Just a solid all around human. Do you project him making the team? Seems like a decent 3rd line scoring threat and vet presence if you have room.

He's all but signed apparently. Scored 2 goals in his pre-season debut (and his only game so far). Seems to be doing well.

 

[Lightsol]

This is an overly simplistic position to take.

You are making it sound like nothing will be gained by moving from Marner.

What if the $12m that Marner is expected to ask for is reallocated to be used, in part, on a true 2C and a top 4 RHD?

Is Marner really that much more valuable than other gaps that the team has?

Losing Marner and pissing money away is stupid. Losing Marner to shore up other long term positions of important need has the potential to make the team better long term.

We’ve see what this team looks like with Marner. We have not seen this team with solid depth up the middle that has Tavares, if resigned, slotted on the 3rd pairing, and a top 4 that figures to be here long term.

What if they choose to let Marner walk to free up the money only for free agency to work out like it has the last two years?

 

[Lightsol]

For all the flack the Core gets, no one outside the Core has stepped up.
Just check out production every playoffs.
Only against Montreal, where Kerfoot piggybacked on Nylander to get into the top 2.

Where is that "where did he come from" player?

Kind of the irony, isn't it? Everyone here bitches about the core and how they "never show up", and despite that they came one goal from knocking off the two-time defending Cup champions in a series where the only players that showed up were the CORE.
The Leafs playoff issues are almost entirely a product of bad goaltending and Keefe's inability to get the entire team firing at the same time; instead, either the core is going and no one else is, or that desired out-of-nowhere player actually shows up... And is the only one.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

I agree with this but probably not for the same reasons. Keefe was a huge part of it, the fact that there has not been a difference maker on a team of 20 players, except for the TB series where Matthews was a beast, over the last 8 years, is odd, disappointing, leaf like? Most cup winners the stars shine and there is almost always a playoff wonder who comes out of nowhere and helps carry the team...usually the goalie stands on his head.

I do see that aspect, It is a bit frustrating that we haven’t had a third liner step up in a huge way, but then you look at some of the names we had and it isn’t all that surprising. Spezza stepped up a bit in Montreal, as did kerfoot and Galchenyuk a bit, but apart from that it’s been nothing.

Mikheyev, Engvall, Kerfoot, JANRKROK. They all fall into the same mold: soft, defensively responsible offensive black holes. When you have 2-3 out of the 6 players on your bottom six being these guys….no shot you get any production from them.

Dewar and Kampf aren’t far off either but they are fourth liners and kampf surprisingly produces over his expectations offensively.


With our star players underperforming, usually the 1LW and 2LW won’t be those guys since they are playing with said underperformers. Hyman and Bunting weren’t great producers, but it didn’t help that Marner didn’t know how to score a playoff goal during most of Hymans tenure here.

Even last year, domi and bertuzzi were so noticeable together that sometimes I forgot Marner was on that line. The amount of times they stripped the puck behind bostons net and got to walk out front was incredible. If it were any other team I think they’d have 6-8 points in this series alone, but because it’s us, not a single one of the chances they got went in.

As for goalies, apart from 17-18 our goalies haven’t sold us a series completely. Andersen had a .930+ in 19-20 against Columbus and Campbell had a .930+ in Montreal. Ironically we won a round with sub .900 numbers.

In the other series’s that those two didn’t have the best numbers, we lost them 3-1 and 2-1 excluding empty netters. We NEED to score more as that is our philosophy.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

Hi Guys...coming in peace (so hard to do). How is Patches looking? I will always cheer for him to succeed. Just a solid all around human. Do you project him making the team? Seems like a decent 3rd line scoring threat and vet presence if you have room.

He looks like a pretty good fit with Tavares on the third line. The first game they played together went quite well as their experienced veteran play suits each other. Should work out well for Patches I think.

 

[Ciao]

Reading between the lines

Grebyonkin will start in the A
Cowan might get a few games depending on Jarnkrok health
Rafai and Timmins are battling for the 7th spot
Knies Matthews Marner are a lock
Pacioretty and Tavares are a lock likely with McMann or Robertson on the other wing
Nylander and Domi look like a duo

Rifai and Timmins battling for #7, assuming that Hakanpaa is on LTIR.

Otherwise, it's for #8 on a team that can only carry seven defenceman unless there is even more LTIR, or significant trade is made -- i.e.: a $2-million+ player.

 

[rumman]

Our depth has been awful in the playoffs.

Kerfoot - 4G / 9A / 13P in 30 games
Mikheyev - 2G / 2A / 4P in 19 games
Engvall - 0G / 4A / 4P in 17 games
Hyman - 5G / 8A / 13P in 32 games (but of course now he's a playoff god for Edmonton)
Bunting - 2G / 3A / 5P in 13 games
Jarnkrok - 1G / 2A / 3P in 18 games

Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but ROR with 3G / 6A / 9P in 11 games is the only secondary guy I can recall who truly stepped up (and big surprise, that's also the year we had our sole playoff win). Domi had a decent playoff last year, but not as good as ROR and it's a smaller sample size. Spezza produced well for a 4th liner, but was still just that, a 4th liner.

So I think 100%, our core forwards have been disappointing in the playoffs relative to other star players and relative to their own regular season performances (except Nylander, who's performed at about the level you'd hope/expect given his regular season performances).

But our secondary/depth forwards have been abysmal for us offensively too, and probably more so than our core. Compare that to what Florida got out of Bennett, Lundell, and Rodrigues, what Vegas got out of Barbashev, Karlsson, Smith, and Roy, or what Colorado got out of Nichushkin, Kadri, and Lehonen (if looking at the more secondary core/quality 3rd line players). Part of that is lack of $$ available, due to the core, to upgrade those parts of the roster, but I'd say they've underachievers regardless of that.

You can’t expect a good supporting cast when half the cap is tied up to four forwards, this won’t change without some of those cap dollars being spent elsewhere……..

What if they choose to let Marner walk to free up the money only for free agency to work out like it has the last two years?

Why so negative, be more positive, they could get some nice pieces with that cap room…….

 

[rumman]

Kind of the irony, isn't it? Everyone here bitches about the core and how they "never show up", and despite that they came one goal from knocking off the two-time defending Cup champions in a series where the only players that showed up were the CORE.
The Leafs playoff issues are almost entirely a product of bad goaltending and Keefe's inability to get the entire team firing at the same time; instead, either the core is going and no one else is, or that desired out-of-nowhere player actually shows up... And is the only one.

Close only countd in horseshoes and hand grenades……..

Rifai and Timmins battling for #7, assuming that Hakanpaa is on LTIR.

Otherwise, it's for #8 on a team that can only carry seven defenceman unless there is even more LTIR, or significant trade is made -- i.e.: a $2-million+ player.

I like Rifai much more than Timmins……..

 

[Zonk]

I remember the Leafs didn't want him back.
This was discussed here and Leafs weren't really interested in him coming back.

I do however have a contact who is in sports medicine and family friends with x-Red Wing execs and he has told me a couple things, example Flyers - Kings deal years back, Flyers scouts in his office discussed trying to get Kiprusoff, and the story that the Wings and Leafs had a deal for Sundin, and the Wings players were talking about having him in the line-up. Sundin refused to go.

But hockey fans know who Sundin is, but how many remember Christiaan Barnard?

Remember him well. It was such a shock to hear on the morning news what he had done. Too bad the first try was not successful, but when you consider the advancements that have occurred since then, it is truly remarkable and has changed many, many lives.

Since Dr. Barnard was South African, it reminded me of the Jonathon Bernier response to a question about Nelson Mandela, another South African who changed the world, about a year after his death.

“Well obviously growing up, he’s one of the most known athletes in the world. A lot of impact in any kind of sport that he did, and even playing hockey, everyone knows him, right? From being the type of person that he was off the ice and on the ice. It’s unfortunate that he passed a year ago, but, he changed a lot while he was with us, and he’s a tremendous guy.”