GDT: Training Camp discussion - Rifai and Murray on waivers -- Steeves clears

[notbias]

Lou Lam = #1C and Captain & 70 goal scorer Auston Matthews, #1G Joseph Woll and Timothy Liljegren ..

Every goal Auston scores and every save and win Woll records pads the stats of the Lou Lam years.

Wonder how much impact the Lou Lam years will have on this year's team.

Not Agreed.

Ah yes, the controversial pick of Matthews...

 

[Mess]

Timothy Liljegren is hoping a change in his off-season training will help him keep his regular spot in the Leafs' lineup under Craig Berube.​

Liljegren was once projected to be a top-four defenseman for the Leafs, but since becoming a regular in the lineup three seasons ago, he has struggled when given the opportunity. Under new bench boss Craig Berube, however, Liljegren, like everyone else, has a clean slate. Despite the increased depth on the blueline and the pressure of fighting to keep his roster spot, it appears to be impressing Berube early on in camp.

"I think he's been very noticeable for me, moving to puck well, making good decisions, he's a smart player (from) what I see," Berube said. "He's got good skills, good puck skills, so he's been good."

In speaking with The Hockey News following day three of camp yesterday, Liljegren revealed that he spent much of the time leading up to training camp working on his biggest deficiency last season - conditioning and making better decisions when exhausted.

"If you get stuck in D-zone, it's more like being conditioned enough where you can think at the same time if that makes sense," Liljegren explained. "It's easy to make mistakes when you're tired. So yeah, just kind of get a little bit better at making good decisions at every shift."

 

[ULF_55]

Matthews was being emotional - change for the sake of change is unproductive and makes things worse

I would think change when things are not working is to change the failure.

Like if you keep hitting your finger with your hammer while driving nails you should do something different. Maybe try a different hammer, even if the hammer you have is perfectly fine. Unless the goal is to hit your finger.

 

[Stephen]

Timothy Liljegren is hoping a change in his off-season training will help him keep his regular spot in the Leafs' lineup under Craig Berube.​

Liljegren was once projected to be a top-four defenseman for the Leafs, but since becoming a regular in the lineup three seasons ago, he has struggled when given the opportunity. Under new bench boss Craig Berube, however, Liljegren, like everyone else, has a clean slate. Despite the increased depth on the blueline and the pressure of fighting to keep his roster spot, it appears to be impressing Berube early on in camp.


In speaking with The Hockey News following day three of camp yesterday, Liljegren revealed that he spent much of the time leading up to training camp working on his biggest deficiency last season - conditioning and making better decisions when exhausted.

Since 2017 when we've drafted him, I've rarely ever seen a positive comment about Liljegren being a smart player. That conditioning x poor decisions and breakdowns seems to have held him back first as a bluechip prospect, slow to promotions and has held him back from quickly progressing at the NHL level.

If the reason for it is just being gassed and losing focus, it would be interesting to see what a fitter player can do. But how the heck did it take this long to address that?

 

[57special]

Interesting to see Murray is up 20lbs from 200 in 23, to 224 this year. Biggest change was Rifai up 28lbs from 23'. Dewar up 18lbs, Grebenkin up 18 lbs.

View attachment 908135

Dewar being up 16 lbs. is good news, I think, unless that weight slows him down. He always had speed, smarts, desire, and grit(not a bad shot, either), but he simply didn't have the strength to win enough board battles or fights when he dropped the gloves. Will be interesting to see how he plays in the early going.

 

[Mess]

Since 2017 when we've drafted him, I've rarely ever seen a positive comment about Liljegren being a smart player. That conditioning x poor decisions and breakdowns seems to have held him back first as a bluechip prospect, slow to promotions and has held him back from quickly progressing at the NHL level.

If the reason for it is just being gassed and losing focus, it would be interesting to see what a fitter player can do. But how the heck did it take this long to address that?

We can even go further back than that and before he was drafted..

In his draft year and prior he began the pre-draft rankings ranked #2 overall behind then Nolan Patrick, back in 2017.

He fell to the Leafs at #17 (partially because of abbreviated draft season) ,but the scouting reports and comparisons at that time were sky high.

ex.
Ten months ago, Liljegren was in the conversation for 1st overall in the 2017 draft alongside Nolan Patrick, but as he was set back by a bout of mono, his stock fell considerably and he was overtaken by players with lower upside on a lot of draft boards.

" The chances that Timothy Liljegren develops into a player as impactful as Erik Karlsson are very, very slim. After all, we are talking about maybe a top-3 defenceman in the history of hockey in Karlsson. But there’s a reason Liljegren sometimes gets compared to the fellow Swedish blue-liner, and if he can bring some of those similar talked-about tools the two share to the table as he develops into an NHL player, the Leafs will be getting a ton of value out of the 17th overall selection."

 

[Stephen]

We can even go further back than that and before he was drafted..

In his draft year and prior he began the pre-draft rankings ranked #2 overall behind then Nolan Patrick, back in 2017.

He fell to the Leafs at #17 (partially because of abbreviated draft season) ,but the scouting reports and comparisons at that time were sky high.

ex.
Ten months ago, Liljegren was in the conversation for 1st overall in the 2017 draft alongside Nolan Patrick, but as he was set back by a bout of mono, his stock fell considerably and he was overtaken by players with lower upside on a lot of draft boards.

Yeah, I don't think we've ever seen a glimpse of that version of Liljegren at the pro level which would have justified a Top 2 selection in 2017. That was famously the Makar, Heiskanen class.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Defensive metrics are more important when discussing defensive play.

Not really and as usual you only addressed one half of the post and pretended you refuted everything.

 

[rumman]

Since 2017 when we've drafted him, I've rarely ever seen a positive comment about Liljegren being a smart player. That conditioning x poor decisions and breakdowns seems to have held him back first as a bluechip prospect, slow to promotions and has held him back from quickly progressing at the NHL level.

If the reason for it is just being gassed and losing focus, it would be interesting to see what a fitter player can do. But how the heck did it take this long to address that?

apparently he's also put on weight, that doesn't usually equate to a better gas tank cardio wise, guess we'll find out soon enough............

 

[Stephen]

apparently he's also put on weight, that doesn't usually equate to a better gas tank cardio wise, guess we'll find out soon enough............

Long and short of it is Liljegren needs to be a vastly different player and human. His offseason may or may not be productive but the shift in preparation would seem to imply things need to change. He's not good enough.

 

[Knies iT]

Since 2017 when we've drafted him, I've rarely ever seen a positive comment about Liljegren being a smart player. That conditioning x poor decisions and breakdowns seems to have held him back first as a bluechip prospect, slow to promotions and has held him back from quickly progressing at the NHL level.

If the reason for it is just being gassed and losing focus, it would be interesting to see what a fitter player can do. But how the heck did it take this long to address that?

Because he's started several seasons now with significant injuries. One being a hernia, the other a high-ankle sprain early in the season. That puts your conditioning behind the eight ball and you end up spending the season playing catch-up with timing/game shape.

He actually earned a reputation for being a bit of a gym rat in his last AHL season and entering the NHL. To get to 200lbs from where he was drafted is impressive.

 

[rumman]

Long and short of it is Liljegren needs to be a vastly different player and human. His offseason may or may not be productive but the shift in preparation would seem to imply things need to change. He's not good enough.

he can improve his game, but you can't make a p***ycat into a lion, he'll never have that element in his game imo.........

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not really and as usual you only addressed one half of the post and pretended you refuted everything.

"Not really"? You don't think defensive metrics are the most important when discussing defense? Odd take... I addressed everything relevant to the discussion.

 

[IPS]

Not really and as usual you only addressed one half of the post and pretended you refuted everything.

He'll never ever in a million years predict anything with his "defensive metrics", only paint whatever picture supports his narrative after the fact, whether it actually matches reality or not in his interest.

 

[notDatsyuk]

"Not really"? You don't think defensive metrics are the most important when discussing defense? Odd take... I addressed everything relevant to the discussion.

The post you replied to talked about goals for and against. Your reply was 'but pretend goals against are different'.

You don't see the difference? Odd take.

 

[andora]

I would think change when things are not working is to change the failure.

Like if you keep hitting your finger with your hammer while driving nails you should do something different. Maybe try a different hammer, even if the hammer you have is perfectly fine. Unless the goal is to hit your finger.

Does your finger wear glasses

 

[RoadWarrior]

It matters if you want it to...

View attachment 908191

View attachment 908192

You have the most random pulls to show Nylander is better than Marner.

Life is easy playing with Austin.

Dave Semenko scored 20 with Gretzky.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Since 2017 when we've drafted him, I've rarely ever seen a positive comment about Liljegren being a smart player. That conditioning x poor decisions and breakdowns seems to have held him back first as a bluechip prospect, slow to promotions and has held him back from quickly progressing at the NHL level.

If the reason for it is just being gassed and losing focus, it would be interesting to see what a fitter player can do. But how the heck did it take this long to address that?

It was easier for Dubas and co. to overlook the physical issues holding players back and focus entirely on analytics. While a players hockey IQ obviously matters they still need to address other key areas such as conditioning.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The post you replied to talked about goals for and against. Your reply was 'but pretend goals against are different'. You don't see the difference? Odd take.

The discussion was about defense. You'll have to ask the other poster why they randomly started talking about offense and stats that represent both defense and goaltending combined. My reply posted the defensive metrics, which for some reason you apparently think aren't important when discussing defense.

He'll never ever in a million years predict anything with his "defensive metrics", only paint whatever picture supports his narrative after the fact

Defensive metrics aren't for predicting, so I don't know why you'd expect that. They show what happened defensively. You just acknowledged that I use them correctly.

 

[ACC1224]

Was the group that isn’t playing tonight on the ice today ?

 

[CincoHolio]

I think it is kind of stupid because it is not normal to most practices growing up, but also, is it really bad?

The whole thread, his only complaints are "staff had to set it up for the Marlies, and it can be disruptive to players".

The people telling him that it is helpful made better points than Han, he just sounded upset that he had to set it up for the Marlies.

Probably closer to a ROAD game situation than dead quiet though.

ftfy

 

[notDatsyuk]

The discussion was about defense. You'll have to ask the other poster why they randomly started talking about offense and stats that represent both defense and goaltending combined. My reply posted the defensive metrics, which for some reason you apparently think aren't important when discussing defense.

Yes, I have this weird idea that real goals are more important than pretend goals.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, I have this weird idea that real goals are more important than pretend goals.

There are no "pretend goals". Just metrics that measure defensive play. You seem to have this weird idea that when discussing defensive play, we shouldn't discuss defensive metrics, and should instead attribute goaltending impacts to skaters. I wonder if you'd feel the same when discussing the next year, when the effect was flipped and goaltending impacts increased their GA to be worse than their defensive results.

 

[notbias]

Yes, I have this weird idea that real goals are more important than pretend goals.

If defenders allow 30 shots a game and all 30 are breakaways, did the defenders do their job?

GA is not a defensive metric, it is a metric of a lot of things combined.

The chances being generated against are a defensive metric.

 

[hamzarocks]

If defenders allow 30 shots a game and all 30 are breakaways, did the defenders do their job?

GA is not a defensive metric, it is a metric of a lot of things combined.

The chances being generated against are a defensive metric.

That seems like an absurd hyperbole and crazy way to assess a team

However if you want to say a team game 30 shots and they are all breakaways, then these are breakaways shared between the 4th liners of a team.

10 for dewar
10 for kampf
10 for reeves

Makes it seem not as bad defense if each player goes 1 for 10 (10% finish) and ends with 3 goals again in this particular game and hyperbolic situation