Pre-Game Talk: Training Camp '13 (Starts Sunday 1/13)

[Leetch3]

FINALLY Camp Torts gets to open tomorrow...the boys better show up with 2 things: their work boots and their barf bags

in the words of the late great herb brooks AGAIN!....AGAIN!!....AGAIN!!...AGAIN!!

its starts now

#THEMOTHEREFFINGRIGHTWAY

 

[Tawnos]

That's because he was mostly used as a fourth line center last year. What planet are you on? He is very positively noticeable, especially for a guy whose been playing FOURTH line center with PRUST and Fedetenko as linemates. Jeez. Come back to earth.

He was mostly used as a 3rd line center last year. What planet are YOU on? Not only is that how I remember the season, in which I watched every game, but the stats bear me out there. Boyle played the 3rd most ES minutes per game of all the centers who actually played center most of the year (as opposed to Anisimov and Dubinsky, who are listed as centers but spent much of the year on the wing).

Look, the real truth here is that Tortorella loves the guy and he's going to get 3rd line minutes more often than not. I'm not happy, nor unhappy with that. It's just the way it is. I just want us to bring in someone else who can fill a similar 3rd/4th tweener center role and share it with Boyle so we can have some versatility in the lineup. Someone like Dom Moore (if he wants to play). Either that or bring in a potential upgrade like Jason Arnott or Daymond Langkow. If they don't work out over the course of the short season, oh well. Boyle can still fill the role to an extent.

 

[NYRKING30]

there is no seating at the practice facility, its never been open to the public since day 1 it opened in 2002 well before torts

That validates what I said. Makes sense now.

 

[The Lunatic Fridge]

Is 6 days going to be enough for torts to run his torture camp?

 

[NYRKING30]

Finally!!!!!!

 

[The Gloaming]

Is 6 days going to be enough for torts to run his torture camp?

3 weeks of torture in 6 days!

Being your barf buckets and toothpaste, boys.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

There is only 6 days for camp so Torts will prob triple the workouts

 

[Samuel Culper III]

He was mostly used as a 3rd line center last year. What planet are YOU on? Not only is that how I remember the season, in which I watched every game, but the stats bear me out there. Boyle played the 3rd most ES minutes per game of all the centers who actually played center most of the year (as opposed to Anisimov and Dubinsky, who are listed as centers but spent much of the year on the wing).

Look, the real truth here is that Tortorella loves the guy and he's going to get 3rd line minutes more often than not. I'm not happy, nor unhappy with that. It's just the way it is. I just want us to bring in someone else who can fill a similar 3rd/4th tweener center role and share it with Boyle so we can have some versatility in the lineup. Someone like Dom Moore (if he wants to play). Either that or bring in a potential upgrade like Jason Arnott or Daymond Langkow. If they don't work out over the course of the short season, oh well. Boyle can still fill the role to an extent.

You're right, he played a lot of minutes last season. I shouldn't have called him a fourth line center; he was his own unique floating part to the team, but who were his linemates? Fourth liners. They got a steady shift because they were great at shutdowning opponents and, as you say, Torts loves him, but he also augmented his minutes with tons of PK and even some PP time. It still stands that your expectations of what constitutes a third liner are not in line with the reality of third liners throughout the league, elite, exceptional ones not withstanding. Would it be great to have an ELITE third line center? Sure, but we have four stud d-men, the best goalie in the world, two elite wingers and a top center; it's not a luxury we can realistically afford. Maybe Miller will give it to us in a couple of years. For now, Boyle is, in every way, an AVERAGE third line center. He played third line minutes last year but with fourth line talent on his wings. He will play the same minutes this year but with better talent (Pyatt + Hags/Kreids/Cally) and his numbers should improve a bit. He is very good for a third line center though. His line will be used as a shutdown line, like it was last year and he's great at that. They will contribute some offense; more than the Feds/Prust line did, and they will be very responsible defensively and keep the puck out of our end a lot. You really can't ask for a lot more from the third line and Pyatt and Boyle are the EPITOMY of NHL third liners. Not the cream of the crop for third liners, but HARDLY subpar. They are literally what should come to mind when someone says "average third liners". People love to say that Hagelin and Dubinsky are third liners but that's simply not the truth. They are players who will EXCEL in a third line role because their skill set matches what's expected of a third liner perfectly, but their talent exceeds that of a normal third liner and most teams cannot afford to play them outside of their top six because they aren't deep enough. Only in the most ideal of situations on a very deep team where key players are on ELCs and you're not skimping on your defense/goalie can a team play guys like that on third line consistently. The truth of the matter is, they're just really not third liners. They're two-way second liners who substitute some of the offense of an ideal second liner for better grit and two-way play.

 

[Tawnos]

I guess I just don't feel that teams who are legitimate contenders for the Cup should have "adequate" 3rd liners.

 

[NYR Viper]

Boyle is not in the lineup for his offense. The team is not relying on him for offense. He is there to add grit, size and defensive awareness. He does all of those things. He is the Rangers Paul Gaustad. People like to think Gaustad is overrated and yet pretty much every team in the league would love to have him.

He matches up against the other teams best players every night and anchors the teams PK. The offense should be carried by Gaborik, Nash, Richards, Callahan and Stepan.

 

[iamitter]

I guess I just don't feel that teams who are legitimate contenders for the Cup should have "adequate" 3rd liners.

Our lineup is very top heavy. In a salary capped world, no lineup can be perfect.

On paper, we probably have the best team in the league. Is our bottom 6 weak? Yes, but we make up for it with our defense, top 6 and goalie.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Our lineup is very top heavy. In a salary capped world, no lineup can be perfect.

On paper, we probably have the best team in the league. Is our bottom 6 weak? Yes, but we make up for it with our defense, top 6 and goalie.

I honestly don't even believe the bottom-6 is weak. There's a lot of size and toughness in the bottom-6, and it isn't completely devoid of skill, especially if one of Hagelin, Kreider, or Callahan is playing and the third line, and that is pretty much a guarantee. Boyle's good for 10+ goals in a full season, and Pyatt is good for around 10. That's typical third line production, but when you add in their size and defensive capabilities, it makes for a really solid third line.

 

[Synergy27]

Our lineup is very top heavy. In a salary capped world, no lineup can be perfect.

On paper, we probably have the best team in the league. Is our bottom 6 weak? Yes, but we make up for it with our defense, top 6 and goalie.

Whose bottom six isn't weak? Are there more than 10 teams with a bottom six that looks better than the Rangers' on paper? 15 teams?

 

[Tawnos]

Boyle is not in the lineup for his offense. The team is not relying on him for offense. He is there to add grit, size and defensive awareness. He does all of those things. He is the Rangers Paul Gaustad. People like to think Gaustad is overrated and yet pretty much every team in the league would love to have him.

He matches up against the other teams best players every night and anchors the teams PK. The offense should be carried by Gaborik, Nash, Richards, Callahan and Stepan.

Just going by pure ES TOI/G stats for the since 2006-07, it seems Gaustad was playing 4th line minutes in nearly every season. I'm not intimately familiar with the Sabres, but it seems like Gaustad and Boyle are very similar... and neither are really 3rd liners.

No one is counting on Boyle to provide offense in terms of putting up points. If that's the point you think you're speaking against, I suggest you re-read some things.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

MPF, not trying to be a smartass but it's "epitome", just figured you might want to know.

 

[Tawnos]

Our lineup is very top heavy. In a salary capped world, no lineup can be perfect.

On paper, we probably have the best team in the league. Is our bottom 6 weak? Yes, but we make up for it with our defense, top 6 and goalie.

Yeah, I'm not satisfied with it. Then again, I was never for the Nash trade and still have major, major concerns that we're better on paper but worse in reality.

 

[NYR Viper]

Just going by pure ES TOI/G stats for the since 2006-07, it seems Gaustad was playing 4th line minutes in nearly every season. I'm not intimately familiar with the Sabres, but it seems like Gaustad and Boyle are very similar... and neither are really 3rd liners.

No one is counting on Boyle to provide offense in terms of putting up points. If that's the point you think you're speaking against, I suggest you re-read some things.

I'm not speaking against anyone or anything. I was adding my thoughts to a discussion that was being had.

Gaustad jumped from 3rd to 4th consistently in his time in Buffalo. He is difficult to play against and is great on draws. Similar player the Rangers have tried to mold Boyle into. It's working.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not speaking against anyone or anything. I was adding my thoughts to a discussion that was being had.

Gaustad jumped from 3rd to 4th consistently in his time in Buffalo. He is difficult to play against and is great on draws. Similar player the Rangers have tried to mold Boyle into. It's working.

Fair enough. It would be working better if we had another center who was capable of putting in solid, 3rd line-type offensive zone minutes, is all I'm saying.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just going by pure ES TOI/G stats for the since 2006-07, it seems Gaustad was playing 4th line minutes in nearly every season. I'm not intimately familiar with the Sabres, but it seems like Gaustad and Boyle are very similar... and neither are really 3rd liners.

No one is counting on Boyle to provide offense in terms of putting up points. If that's the point you think you're speaking against, I suggest you re-read some things.

Well that Buffalo team was very deep. However, they also had a weakness of not having high end talent. Our high end talent is better than theirs, our defense is better than theirs, and as good as Ryan Miller is, our goalie is better than theirs. I don't want Boyle as our #3 center either (in fact I complained about it), but show me a team with no weaknesses in the salary cap era. There's no such thing as the 70s Canadians anymore.

Edit: Forgot Vanek. We still have more high end talent.

 

[NYR Viper]

Fair enough. It would be working better if we had another center who was capable of putting in solid, 3rd line-type offensive zone minutes, is all I'm saying.

I agree. I think the Rangers thought the cap would be lower than it is. They can, and I expect they will, add a center at the deadline

 

[Samuel Culper III]

I guess I just don't feel that teams who are legitimate contenders for the Cup should have "adequate" 3rd liners.

Teams that are legitimate threats for the Cup usually have a third line that can shutdown the opponents. Boyle will do that perfectly. He doesn't need to have this offensive presence you're hung up on in order to be much more than adequate. That's not a word I ever used. Adequate implies barely meeting the requirements. Boyle is not simply adequate, he is the exemplar of the average, as in exactly what you expect. No better or worse than MOST teams will have. Adequate would be simply able to fill the role because there is no better option. That is not the case. Boyle is much better than virtually all fourth liners in the league. He is made for the third line. If he improves his offense playing with Hags and Pyatt or Kreider and Pyatt (you don't think that line would have some offensive zone presence? They're all giants who throw their weight around, can put pucks in the net, pay reasonably good attention to their own end and forecheck extremely well) he will be an exceptionally good third line center.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Pyatt-Boyle-Callahan

Pro shutdown unit.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Have they released the official training camp roster yet?

 

[RGY]

Yeah, I'm not satisfied with it. Then again, I was never for the Nash trade and still have major, major concerns that we're better on paper but worse in reality.

I don't disagree with you Tawnos regarding that. But for this year they have the cap space to add players to strengthen their 3rd line which would extend the current 3rd liners onto the 4th line.

 

[RGY]

Pyatt-Boyle-Callahan

Pro shutdown unit.

I suggested that yesterday, but it became huge argument that Callahan was above playing on a "3rd line"