Trades & Free Agency Thread: 2024-2025 - Trade Deadline Approaches

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Agree and thanks for looking it up.

The key for contenders/Cup winners is having value contract, where players outperform their contracts. Whether that is 1mil or 12mil.

Hence that’s the problem with our boys, beside Willie(as he was at 7mil), they collectively have not outperformed their contracts despite AM winning two Rockets, as that’s pretty much expected as someone getting paid the second or third highest salary in the league and highest this year.

And I have not even mentioned playoffs.


Bro, it was MM and Holmberg Vs Ehlers and Colton as an example.

Pls reread, lol.

Matthews gave us fair retail value on his last contract. It was a luxury player at a luxury price, with very little room for surplus value to be found but we got our money's worth. My big issue with him this season is you bake the new salary, captaincy, injuries, inconsistency into one and it's massive regression and not building any momentum on top of anything from the past. So I don't trust our foundations to make massive short term additions.

In terms of an organizational shift from top heavy to a more distributed roster and cap structure, I'm not sure what the answer is.

I do believe in a team built on more depth and more fiscal responsibility, but I think it has to be built that way like the Dallas Stars model. They just drafted well, developed in house, promoted internally and handed out reasonable upper middle class deals. I think it's a different organizational mindset, they didn't grow up with the mentality that they were the best core of the era destined for great things.

I look at the Avalanche and Rantanen, I'm not convinced going from high end and changing stance by downgrading works. So moving off Marner to get Boeser and Ehlers might balance the cap sheet a little bit but if one of those guys goes south you're basically cooked.
 
Matthews gave us fair retail value on his last contract. It was a luxury player at a luxury price, with very little room for surplus value to be found but we got our money's worth. My big issue with him this season is you bake the new salary, captaincy, injuries, inconsistency into one and it's massive regression and not building any momentum on top of anything from the past. So I don't trust our foundations to make massive short term additions.

In terms of an organizational shift from top heavy to a more distributed roster and cap structure, I'm not sure what the answer is.

I do believe in a team built on more depth and more fiscal responsibility, but I think it has to be built that way like the Dallas Stars model. They just drafted well, developed in house, promoted internally and handed out reasonable upper middle class deals. I think it's a different organizational mindset, they didn't grow up with the mentality that they were the best core of the era destined for great things.

I look at the Avalanche and Rantanen, I'm not convinced going from high end and changing stance by downgrading works. So moving off Marner to get Boeser and Ehlers might balance the cap sheet a little bit but if one of those guys goes south you're basically cooked.
You do need top talent to win the Cup as shown over the past 10Cup winners.

Even the Blues had ROR(argubly the best two way C at that time) and Pietra( one of the few No.1 Dman at that time).

Now the question is can we consider AM, MM, Willie and JT top end talents? They certainly had not perform at the level of Sid, Ovie, Kuch, Point, Barkov, Tkachuk, Stone, Eichel, Mack, Rantanen, McD and Drai. Also it is not like they are on an island by themselves with no other top players to play with.

As for Avs and Rantanen. Necas is a downgrade but they still have Mack, Makar and Toews, all proven playoffs winners in their prime. They can afford a downgrade on Rantanen while getting a stronger supporting piece.

For the Leafs. Let’s say they are out in the first round again (as if they advance to the ECF and more while MM plays a big role, he should be resign), now would changing Ehlers and Colton for MM and Holmberg hurts the Leafs chance in making the playoffs? Another word, would the team take a step backwards with those changes. I would say not.
Would they take the next step forward, that would depends on AM and Willie more than how well Ehlers play.

Just thought of this, let’s say you can build a team with any players with the current cap.
I don’t think any of the core 5 will be on that team and that’s pretty much shown they are not overperforming their contracts.
 
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I saw that. Don't think they need another RHD though.

I think the Leafs make a lot of sense for Evans & Savard.
Evans is on an expiring deal. 16g 40pt pace at age 28 is a career year for him. He would be a wonderful replacement for Kampf but he may not actually be able to replicate his current production on another club or in another season so is he a real 3rd line center for a contending team?. Last years Evans is Kampf from his first two Leaf seasons. Savard is a 3rd pairing guy on a 21st place team. He may improve them a bit but I think there has to be lower cost options that would have less mileage on them and on contracts that don't require retention.

Donato had been mentioned as well but he is another guy on an expiring deal They had mentioned before about looking to add someone with term but they can only choose from what is available. I would probably prefer Evans over Donato because he does good bottom 6 C things but I wouldn't want Savard thrown in. He had kind of a a bounce back year last season but is having a weaker year on a stronger Habs club.
 
That's literally what he said. Take it up with him.
No, that's how you're interpreting it. Right? @WTFMAN99

We don't need to downgrade on one of our best players to improve other areas. We just need to do better at finding effective and efficient players in those other areas. We don't have players to re-sign that require losing Marner.

Also, Marner brings offensive and defensive impacts in all situations. Whatever other area you're trying to improve would be simultaneously hurt by losing Marner.
Isn't this what they've been doing since 2019? It hasn't really worked, has it?

Part of the reason there are no players to re-sign is that they haven't been able to keep any of their depth over the last 3-5 years; it's the near-constant rotation of middle and bottom 6 players, and the same goes for the defence all while not actually being good enough to go far in the spring.

It's not ridiculous to say that keeping this roster construction with a three headed cap hydra is a concession in itself because you just can't fill the rest of the team as best as you could, yet this NBA "stars over anything" mentality still persists; why? We've had no success with it.

Colorado has changed, and they've actually won something...

That's not enough information to determine that. Cherry picking the point type least relevant to a player's playstyle over a cherry picked time frame without any context behind that production or consideration for anything outside of production is a poor way to evaluate their performance.
It's not cherry-picking when he makes as much as he does. He gets paid what he does to produce points, and he's a 90-point scorer, as you've pointed out.

If he wants to be paid like Rantanen, then produce and have success like he has.

I didn't inflate anything. I noted 4 different ways to look at Marner's production level, and every single one was greater than 90 points. I also applied the exact same method to each side, instead of the complete opposite methods the other individual attempted.

The other individual was the one who first used pace, for the record, and unlike me and the consistent 7 year pace that I looked at, he cherry picked an unrepresentative half-season sample. What you're interested in doesn't really matter. 90 points is objectively an underrepresentation of what Marner brings, especially considering how the other side was represented.
Well, kind of; by saying more than 90, you are inferring it's better than 90 when really he's only paced like that twice. 21-22 and this season. So, whether it's 90 or 96, it's more or less the same value.

90 is 90, and that's impressive, so it doesn't need to be glossed up.

It works in the NBA. No Goalie. He who shoots best under pressure wins.

I think people want a balanced team that plays solid 60mins and wins. The Stars are more for kids. You get over 30 yrs old and you stop seeing stars and start seeing the, but how do they help us win a cup part.

30 under buy most the merch though.
You do need star players; three at one position (for that much $) is the problem.

If we had drafted Werenski instead of Marner, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.
 
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Matthews gave us fair retail value on his last contract. It was a luxury player at a luxury price, with very little room for surplus value to be found but we got our money's worth. My big issue with him this season is you bake the new salary, captaincy, injuries, inconsistency into one and it's massive regression and not building any momentum on top of anything from the past. So I don't trust our foundations to make massive short term additions.

In terms of an organizational shift from top heavy to a more distributed roster and cap structure, I'm not sure what the answer is.

I do believe in a team built on more depth and more fiscal responsibility, but I think it has to be built that way like the Dallas Stars model. They just drafted well, developed in house, promoted internally and handed out reasonable upper middle class deals. I think it's a different organizational mindset, they didn't grow up with the mentality that they were the best core of the era destined for great things.

I look at the Avalanche and Rantanen, I'm not convinced going from high end and changing stance by downgrading works. So moving off Marner to get Boeser and Ehlers might balance the cap sheet a little bit but if one of those guys goes south you're basically cooked.
If one of the 3 amigos gets hurt, you're basically cooked. Everything being equal Ehlers scores as many goals as Marner and Boeser puts up 30+ goals. You have an additional scoring threat. Not a bad option if you decide to change direction.
 
I was kind of throwing that around in my head, but was using Matthews as the bait.

Was trying to determine if I'd do Celebrini or Bedard?

Hawks I'm guessing has a bigger market share than Sharks, if looking to market Matthews. Los Angeles would be the ideal, with it's demographics. I don't see anything I'd do from LA though.

But other options, Matthews and marner for Tkachuk, Bennet and Barkov.
Harley+Johnston

Dallas had a huge Hispanic population.
 
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For whichever side you are on in any argument regarding cap hit, performance, value to the team, etc regarding Matthews/marner/Nylander there is a middle ground which both sides make fair points.

The posters that never admit any point from the other side being correct and fight tooth and nail that their side is the only right point needs to take a long look in the mirror. Are you a fan of the team or just the player.
 
For whichever side you are on in any argument regarding cap hit, performance, value to the team, etc regarding Matthews/marner/Nylander there is a middle ground which both sides make fair points.

The posters that never admit any point from the other side being correct and fight tooth and nail that their side is the only right point needs to take a long look in the mirror. Are you a fan of the team or just the player.
I certainly don't intend for that, nor do I want to sound too unappreciative of Marner. Still, when applying the context of what this team has achieved and what other teams have done to achieve things, a lot of it does clash with how things have been done in Toronto over the last 5 years.

It does irk me pertaining to Marner when I hear Friedman describe Darren Ferris's tactics as an agent: "he gets his guys to go to free agency." I mean, if it's just about that, then nah.
 
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No, that's how you're interpreting it. Right? @WTFMAN99


Isn't this what they've been doing since 2019? It hasn't really worked, has it?

Part of the reason there are no players to re-sign is that they haven't been able to keep any of their depth over the last 3-5 years; it's the near-constant rotation of middle and bottom 6 players, and the same goes for the defence all while not actually being good enough to go far in the spring.
Bingo
It's not ridiculous to say that keeping this roster construction with a three headed cap hydra is a concession in itself because you just can't fill the rest of the team as best as you could, yet this NBA "stars over anything" mentality still persists; why? We've had no success with it.
This is what keeps those that want to win a cup here up at night.
Colorado has changed, and they've actually won something...


It's not cherry-picking when he makes as much as he does. He gets paid what he does to produce points, and he's a 90-point scorer, as you've pointed out.

If he wants to be paid like Rantanen, then produce and have success like he has.


Well, kind of; by saying more than 90, you are inferring it's better than 90 when really he's only paced like that twice. 21-22 and this season. So, whether it's 90 or 96, it's more or less the same value.

90 is 90, and that's impressive, so it doesn't need to be glossed up.


You do need star players; three at one position (for that much $) is the problem.
No need to split hairs. 95ish point player with a contract year boost AKA actually trying as hard as you van for a change.
If we had drafted Werenski instead of Marner, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Worse. Those proposals were projected to land us Werenski or Provorov and Barzal.

Everyone thought they were going to do it. Then I think they did Dermott over Aho right after haha

I think that's when I started saying fire the Scouts and use Kenzies consolidated list to draft
 
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No thanks. We got Minten Cowen a first leave Knies out lol
Well, yeah, but it wouldn't be surprising if that's who they would ask for.

I know some would perceive this not to be the kind of player to peruse, but I'm intrigued by Zegras when talking about Anaheim. If we're talking about a player who can replace some of the offence and creativity if Mitch goes, then he's someone to possibly look at.

Tre and CB won't go that, though, mostly because he's not 6'6 with knee problems...
 
For whichever side you are on in any argument regarding cap hit, performance, value to the team, etc regarding Matthews/marner/Nylander there is a middle ground which both sides make fair points.

The posters that never admit any point from the other side being correct and fight tooth and nail that their side is the only right point needs to take a long look in the mirror. Are you a fan of the team or just the player.
:clap:
 
If one of the 3 amigos gets hurt, you're basically cooked. Everything being equal Ehlers scores as many goals as Marner and Boeser puts up 30+ goals. You have an additional scoring threat. Not a bad option if you decide to change direction.

I think if the Leafs were committed to building deeper you’d get rid of Marner and Nylander, turn 2 guys into 4 and let Tavares walk, basically turning 3 of our Big 4 into a six pack of upper middle class guys.
 

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