Trades and Free Agency - 2022 Off-season

[rocketman588]

Okay.

Flames traded a 27 year old on LTIR, not counting against the Cap, and a 1st. to clear space.
Leafs traded a 38 year old, with a NMC and +35 contract, and a 1st. to clear space.

Both were due to a lack of planning and a panic dump

The only reason they're not getting torched is they did it within a pretty solid off season while we did it because we had mismanaged the cap

 

[rocketman588]

Just so I can make sure I'm keeping track, you're comparing losing Marleau and Kapanen to losing Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

Interesting.

Simple question at the time we made the trade did we have an extra first?

In the 19/20 off season did we add a 100 point scorer, top 4 D and upper tier 2 center in addition to the first or nah?

Or did we add nothing else?

Funny that you're ignoring what the flames got back. Just like people casually ignoring Dubas had a year to dump marleau and didn't

 

[LeafChief]

Simple question at the time we made the trade did we have an extra first?

In the 19/20 off season did we add a 100 point scorer, top 4 D and upper tier 2 center in addition to the first or nah?

Or did we add nothing else?

Funny that you're ignoring what the flames got back. Just like people casually ignoring Dubas had a year to dump marleau and didn't

How can we give the Flames credit for 'what they got back' while not acknowledging that they let a 100 point winger walk and a 24 year old Tkachuk had to go the other way to get the pieces that they got back.

Treliving has had 3 years to dump Monahan. He's had back to back seasons under 20 points.

Neither move was a good move but its hilarious to see you try to spin one of them that way.

 

[ULF_55]

Both were due to a lack of planning and a panic dump

The only reason they're not getting torched is they did it within a pretty solid off season while we did it because we had mismanaged the cap

Well, if you want to look at it that way.

Flames got in a mess because they couldn't retain their own players.

 

[Apex Predator]

Bad trade for the Flames. I get that they had to dump cap space to sign Kadri but giving up a first is tough. If they win a cup then yeah who cares but till then i hate the price they paid.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yet he waived his nmc the next year and played in Pittsburgh in 19/20 for part of the season

Nothing you said changes anything I said. He waived his NMC after the 2nd year exclusively so that he could be bought out and go to San Jose, and he signed a league minimum contract with no trade protections. San Jose sucked and was rebuilding so they sent him to Pittsburgh at the deadline for one last chance at the cup. He played 8 games in Pittsburgh.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Bad trade for the Flames. I get that they had to dump cap space to sign Kadri but giving up a first is tough. If they win a cup then yeah who cares but till then i hate the price they paid.

On the flip side the earliest that pick is could be in 2024 and the latest in 2026.

That prospect, if they make the NHL is probably 5+ years away.

So if they’re paying the heavy price of a 1st, at least it’s mitigated in time (and protected). Plus they still end up with a 1st rounder should they conditions with Florida hold.

 

[rocketman588]

Nothing you said changes anything I said. He waived his NMC after the 2nd year exclusively so that he could be bought out and go to San Jose, and he signed a league minimum contract with no trade protections. San Jose sucked and was rebuilding so they sent him to Pittsburgh at the deadline for one last chance at the cup. He played 8 games in Pittsburgh.

So he waived his nmc to play for Pittsburgh.

Maybe Dubas should have done his f***ing job

 

[LeafChief]

So he waived his nmc to play for Pittsburgh.

Maybe Dubas should have done his f***ing job

LMAO this is incredible stuff. This may shock you but Pittsburgh was interested him at the time because SJ was able to trade him there on his league minimum salary. Pittsburgh was not interested at his 6+million AAV.

 

[4thline]

I'm leaning towards trading Sandin, maybe he fixes his stride and becomes a slam dunk top 4 somewhere else, maybe he doesn't. Pick and a less proven waiver exempt dman would be my target

 

[rocketman588]

How can we give the Flames credit for 'what they got back' while not acknowledging that they let a 100 point winger walk and a 24 year old Tkachuk had to go the other way to get the pieces that they got back.

Treliving has had 3 years to dump Monahan. He's had back to back seasons under 20 points.

Neither move was a good move but its hilarious to see you try to spin one of them that way.

Literally said both are a panic move.

The only reason the flames aren't being torpedoed is because of how the rest of their off season went

As opposed to dubas whose off season is just repeatedly dumping people

As much as you want to spin the marleau deal as being anything but his inability to plan or manage the cap despite having a year to do so

As he's shown in his career he was more then willing to waive a nmc to go to Pittsburgh maybe we shouldn't have panic dumped him and he would have had more options to trade

LMAO this is incredible stuff. This may shock you but Pittsburgh was interested him at the time because SJ was able to trade him there on his league minimum salary. Pittsburgh was not interested at his 6+million AAV.

Did he waive his nmc to go to a team other then San Jose in 19/20

Yes or no it's a pretty easy question

 

[Dekes For Days]

So he waived his nmc to play for Pittsburgh.

No, he didn't. He didn't have a NMC when he got traded to Pittsburgh for 8 games. He had a league minimum contract with no trade protection.

Did he waive his nmc to go to a team other then San Jose in 19/20
Yes or no it's a pretty easy question

No. He didn't. He only ever waived a NMC to end up on San Jose.

 

[LeafChief]

Literally said both are a panic move.

The only reason the flames aren't being torpedoed is because of how the rest of their off season went

As opposed to dubas whose off season is just repeatedly dumping people

As much as you want to spin the marleau deal as being anything but his inability to plan or manage the cap despite having a year to do so

As he's shown in his career he was more then willing to waive a nmc to go to Pittsburgh maybe we shouldn't have panic dumped him and he would have had more options to trade



Did he waive his nmc to go to a team other then San Jose

Yes or no it's a pretty easy question

You're very confused about the Pittsburgh trade but I'll give you time to catch up on that.

The Flames were able to make moves to bring in players like Huberdeau and Kadri because they misplayed their hand with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. They did a good job recovering from a screw up.

The Leafs didn't go out and add big names (like Huberdeau for example) after they dumped Marleau because they already had those players (Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares) on the team. They didn't have to make reactionary moves like Calgary did because Marleau wasn't an impact plkayer for the team in the same vein that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were for Calgary.

Like I said, giving up a 1st to dump Marleau is bad and giving up a first to dump Monahan is bad. Your ability to understand trades is also potentially bad.

Literally said both are a panic move.

The only reason the flames aren't being torpedoed is because of how the rest of their off season went

As opposed to dubas whose off season is just repeatedly dumping people

As much as you want to spin the marleau deal as being anything but his inability to plan or manage the cap despite having a year to do so

As he's shown in his career he was more then willing to waive a nmc to go to Pittsburgh maybe we shouldn't have panic dumped him and he would have had more options to trade



Did he waive his nmc to go to a team other then San Jose in 19/20

Yes or no it's a pretty easy question

Did he has a 6 million AAV with the Leafs and a 750 AAV with SJ? Does that change his value to teams? Yes or no thats an easy question.

I'm also not certain he had a NMC with SJ the way he did with the Leafs.

If you see these two situations as parallels, I hope your day job doesn't involve heavy machinery.

 

[rocketman588]

No, he didn't. He didn't have a NMC when he got traded to Pittsburgh for 8 games. He had a league minimum contract with no trade protection.

Oh my bad. Still agreed to go there and play. If he didn't want to be wouldn't have been traded

Once he played for another team in 19/20

The "he would only play for San Jose thing" gets pretty debunked

You're very confused about the Pittsburgh trade but I'll give you time to catch up on that.

The Flames were able to make moves to bring in players like Huberdeau and Kadri because they misplayed their hand with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. They did a good job recovering from a screw up.

The Leafs didn't go out and add big names (like Huberdeau for example) after they dumped Marleau because they already had those players (Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares) on the team. They didn't have to make reactionary moves like Calgary did because Marleau wasn't an impact plkayer for the team in the same vein that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were for Calgary.

Like I said, giving up a 1st to dump Marleau is bad and giving up a first to dump Monahan is bad. Your ability to understand trades is also potentially bad.



Did he has a 6 million AAV with the Leafs and a 750 AAV with SJ? Does that change his value to teams? Yes or no thats an easy question.

I'm also not certain he had a NMC with SJ the way he did with the Leafs.

If you see these two situations as parallels, I hope your day job doesn't involve heavy machinery.

Played for a team not named San Jose.

Maybe if our rookie gm wasn't still leaning on the job he would used the entire year he had to figure it out properly

 

[LeafChief]

Oh my bad. Still agreed to go there and play. If he didn't want to be wouldn't have been traded

Once he played for another team in 19/20

The "he would only play for San Jose thing" gets pretty debunked

He did not have a NTC or a NMC with SJ after being bought out. His AAV was $700k. No team wanted him at 6 million.

This isn't very hard to follow along.

Oh my bad. Still agreed to go there and play. If he didn't want to be wouldn't have been traded

Once he played for another team in 19/20

The "he would only play for San Jose thing" gets pretty debunked



Played for a team not named San Jose.

Maybe if our rookie gm wasn't still leaning on the job he would used the entire year he had to figure it out properly

He had a 6million dollar AAV with Toronto. He has a 700k AAV with San Jose. You are confused.

 

[Avilaj07]

To Toronto-
JT Miller
Vasily Podkolzin
Tyler Myers 50% retained

To Vancouver-
William Nylander
Alex Kerfoot
Rasmus Sandin

 

[rocketman588]

He did not have a NTC or a NMC with SJ after being bought out. His AAV was $700k. No team wanted him at 6 million.

This isn't very hard to follow along.


He had a 6million dollar AAV with Toronto. He has a 700k AAV with San Jose. You are confused.

He scored 27 goals in 18/19 people are more then willing to take that cap hit for that

Obviously was willing to play for other NHL teams if he showed up and played for Pittsburgh.

Maybe our gm was confused about how to actually be a gm in not the OHL

Also he had an entire year with the "foresight" of that terrible contract.

Didn't bother to move it until he lost every shred of leverage

Lou's fault though

To Toronto-
JT Miller
Vasily Podkolzin
Tyler Myers 50% retained

To Vancouver-
William Nylander
Alex Kerfoot
Rasmus Sandin

2 years of Myers at 3 is still somewhat of a risk

 

[Apex Predator]

On the flip side the earliest that pick is could be in 2024 and the latest in 2026.

That prospect, if they make the NHL is probably 5+ years away.

So if they’re paying the heavy price of a 1st, at least it’s mitigated in time (and protected). Plus they still end up with a 1st rounder should they conditions with Florida hold.

It’s pretty complicated the conditions on that first but couldn’t the Habs still end up with a top 10 pick in those years?

 

[rocketman588]

It’s pretty complicated the conditions on that first but couldn’t the Habs still end up with a top 10 pick in those years?

Yes it really depends on which one is better/worse/ of the flames get the Panthers pick

The Habs can also choose to defer the pick in one of the conditions if it's 22-32

The conditions are insane

 

[WTFMAN99]

Tyler Myers was on the 3rd pairing at one point for Vancouver...

 

[ULF_55]

He did not have a NTC or a NMC with SJ after being bought out. His AAV was $700k. No team wanted him at 6 million.

This isn't very hard to follow along.


He had a 6million dollar AAV with Toronto. He has a 700k AAV with San Jose. You are confused.

He had no protection on his last contract he could have been traded anywhere.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh my bad. Still agreed to go there and play. If he didn't want to be wouldn't have been traded

Unlike with us, he didn't have a choice of whether he was traded. He didn't void his contract and refuse to play 8 games with a contender for a last chance at a cup, but that's very different from waiving your trade protection to go somewhere you don't want to go for a full season. He refused to do that.

Maybe if our rookie gm wasn't still leaning on the job he would used the entire year he had to figure it out properly

He did "figure it out" properly, and did the best possible move to deal with the horrible mess Lou left.

Dumping Marleau after his first year wasn't possible, because Marleau wasn't waiving, but even if we pretend that he would have waived, and even if we pretend that there was some team out there willing to take on that contract, dumping 2 years of Marleau would have cost more than dumping 1 year of Marleau anyway.

 

[Americanadian]

We also didn't trade 13th overall. We traded a 1st that ended up being a lot earlier than it should have been due to a subpar coach and a Covid playoff.

Yes - we can blame the 22 points from the first 23 games on Babcock but then how do we explain the 28 points in 27 games to end the season? I'm not absolving Babcock of blame but saying the Leafs picked 13th because of him is a stretch.

Maybe the issue was having a playoff D-core that included Dermott, Ceci, Barrie and then they had to throw in 7D Marincin on top of that.

You also point blame to a Covid playoff yet we still haven't seen the Leafs win a single series, Covid or not - so what should the expectations have been?

 

[Americanadian]

Dumping Marleau after his first year wasn't possible, because Marleau wasn't waiving, but even if we pretend that he would have waived, and even if we pretend that there was some team out there willing to take on that contract, dumping 2 years of Marleau would have cost more than dumping 1 year of Marleau anyway.

Marleau also scored 27 goals in his first year and led the Leafs in playoff scoring. He was decent value for his cap hit and the Leafs cap structure during the 2018 off-season. What most of Leafs nation and presumably Dubas didn't realize at the time was that Nylander/Marner/Matthews were about to make a combined 29.5M.

In the summer of 2018 it wasn't difficult to project Nylander on an Ehlers contract (6M), Marner around 7.5M (his career high at the time was 69 points), and Matthews around Eichel's number of 10M (his career high was 63 points in 62 games, with 7 points in 13 playoff games). You're looking at a difference of 6M give or take 1.5M in contract expectations versus reality. That is the Marleau contract right there.

 

[Apex Predator]

Marleau also scored 27 goals in his first year and led the Leafs in playoff scoring. He was decent value for his cap hit and the Leafs cap structure during the 2018 off-season. What most of Leafs nation and presumably Dubas didn't realize at the time was that Nylander/Marner/Matthews were about to make a combined 29.5M.

In the summer of 2018 it wasn't difficult to project Nylander on an Ehlers contract (6M), Marner around 7.5M (his career high at the time was 69 points), and Matthews around Eichel's number of 10M (his career high was 63 points in 62 games, with 7 points in 13 playoff games). You're looking at a difference of 6M give or take 1.5M in contract expectations versus reality. That is the Marleau contract right there.

Exactly no one here was expecting those guys to get the money they did. I thought with Tavares signing he set the bar. Matthews would get 9-10ish and Marner under him. I was way off on that.