Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Thread Part IV: Yak Yak Yak Yak

[smoneil]

You're suggesting that Staal hasn't played enough to convince you his game won't decline, yet using a small sample size to prop up MDZ.

First, I'm not talking about Staal's game "declining" at all. I'm talking about him showing that his game is back to where it can be. He had a massive concussion followed by an eye injury that will never be 100% healed. Either one of those injuries could (and have, with other players) derailed careers. Staal also spent the first dozen games of the season as our worst (by a wide margin) defenseman. He's looked more like his old self for about 5 or 6 games. You're damned right I want more than half a dozen games before deciding that he's able to play like he used to for the long haul.

As for Del Zotto's "small sample size"--he played 77 games that season, most of which were filling in for a concussed Staal.

But yeah, 77 games and 6 games. Those are the same thing.

 

[Thirty One]

But yeah, 77 games and 6 games. Those are the same thing.

I can confirm that 77 and 6 are not the same number. Trust me, I'm an accountant.

 

[smoneil]

I can confirm that 77 and 6 are not the same number. Trust me, I'm an accountant.

I work in the humanities (so I had to triple check before making such a bold statement).

 

[Tawnos]

I'm concerned about Girardi leaving as well, and I would be against moving Stralman for the same reasons. And yes, Allen is only six months older than MDZ--but he's never played an NHL game.

The issue for me is that you have a lot more faith in our lesser LDs than I do. You are comfortable with John Moore as a top 4 D. He scares the hell out of me as a bottom pair D most nights. He's been awful this season, and he's not that far removed from failing to make a very mediocre Columbus D.

You see Allen as a lock for being able to handle a regular NHL shift. I see another in a long line of AHL guys who this board annointed as the "next Girardi." Is it possible? Yeah, sure. It's also entirely improbable (there is a long list of guys who this board thought would be great NHL players based on their AHL play--the vast majority haven't panned out, either here or with any other team). Remember a few months ago when Parlett was going to be a lock for our top 4 for ages? Remind me--has he won a Norris yet?

Again, I'm not opposed to moving MDZ. I just think doing it now (as opposed to closer to the trade deadline when we'll know more) is stupid timing.

I'm saying that, when we have to worry about Staal leaving, I'm not going to be worried about Moore at that point. And I'm not going to be worried about Allen (or someone else coming along) being able to play 3rd pair D at that point. I see Allen as the guy who was, believe it or not, our best defenseman in training camp. Nothing more and nothing less. That point I'm talking about is still almost 21 months in the future, if Staal even leaves. Even if **** goes disastrous on our left-side, it's still not worth keeping Del Zotto on this team, right now, if there's a worthy deal to be made for him.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

So they shouldnt trade Del Zotto because Staal might leave in the summer of 2015?

Yea, thats how you manage assets.

 

[Greg02]

I can confirm that 77 and 6 are not the same number. Trust me, I'm an accountant.

Not a very good one if you can't make 77 and 6 the same number.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Stop. Putting. Words. In. My. Mouth. The Mods will edit out a (mild) personal attack, but this kind of nonsense does more to bring discourse down in here, and you do it incessantly.

First, I'm not talking about Staal's game "declining" at all. I'm talking about him showing that his game is back to where it can be. He had a massive concussion followed by an eye injury that will never be 100% healed. Either one of those injuries could (and have, with other players) derailed careers. Staal also spent the first dozen games of the season as our worst (by a wide margin) defenseman. He's looked more like his old self for about 5 or 6 games. You're damned right I want more than half a dozen games before deciding that he's able to play like he used to for the long haul.

As for Del Zotto's "small sample size"--he played 77 games that season, most of which were filling in for a concussed Staal.

But yeah, 77 games and 6 games. Those are the same thing.

It would be an overall decline from the top of his game would it not be? It's not putting words in your mouth if it means the same thing. Staal hasn't missed 77 games since 2012 so I am not sure where you got that from but none the less MDZ was good but certainly didn't raise his game to Staal's level and McDonagh/Girardi should be given most credit for carrying our D core through that period.

Staal would have a hard time being the worst defenseman on the team with MDZ in the lineup, again I think this may be a case of you playing favorites... You know like with Dubinsky.

 

[smoneil]

So they shouldnt trade Del Zotto because Staal might leave in the summer of 2015?

Yea, thats how you manage assets.

Looks at what I wrote. Looks at this response. Slams head on desk.

Staal had two potentially career ending injuries. He then proceeded to stink up the ice for the first two thirds of the games played this season. I'm concerned about his long-term ability to play like his old self. I'm ALSO concerned about whether or not he wants to still be here, but the primary concern is related to whether or not his injuries will hamper him. Waiting a bit longer into the season will give the team time to see which post-injury Staal is the real one--the one from the first dozen games or the one from the last six. For the sake of the team, I hope it's the latter, because a healthy Staal is much better than MDZ. I just want the team to be a tad more cautious with their assets so they don't end up trading their cover and then realizing they might need it.

The side benefits to waiting a couple of months also include the chance to offer Staal an extension (thus getting a sense of whether or not he wants to stay) and the fact that player values tend to be higher closer to the trade deadline.

Again-- not against trading Del Zotto. Just against doing it in November, where we have all the risk and the return will likely be lower.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Looks at what I wrote. Looks at this response. Slams head on desk.

Staal had two potentially career ending injuries. He then proceeded to stink up the ice for the first two thirds of the games played this season. I'm concerned about his long-term ability to play like his old self. I'm ALSO concerned about whether or not he wants to still be here, but the primary concern is related to whether or not his injuries will hamper him. Waiting a bit longer into the season will give the team time to see which post-injury Staal is the real one--the one from the first dozen games or the one from the last six. For the sake of the team, I hope it's the latter, because a healthy Staal is much better than MDZ. I just want the team to be a tad more cautious with their assets so they don't end up trading their cover and then realizing they might need it.

The side benefits to waiting a couple of months also include the chance to offer Staal an extension (thus getting a sense of whether or not he wants to stay) and the fact that player values tend to be higher closer to the trade deadline.

Again-- not against trading Del Zotto. Just against doing it in November, where we have all the risk and the return will likely be lower.

If he doesn't rebound and start playing at a higher level his value will decline, that's how it works. If a trade is available and you're already convinced you'll be moving on from a player you don't hold onto him hoping his value increases. It's bad asset management.

 

[smoneil]

It would be an overall decline from the top of his game would it not be? It's not putting words in your mouth if it means the same thing. Staal hasn't missed 77 games since 2012 so I am not sure where you got that from but none the less MDZ was good but certainly didn't raise his game to Staal's level and McDonagh/Girardi should be given most credit for carrying our D core through that period.

No, it wouldn't. A decline involves a concern that a player will regress from where he is now. I'm concerned about whether Staal can still be the player he's been for this team. It's about rebounding from injury--not about being worried that a 27 year old player will regress.

Staal would have a hard time being the worst defenseman on the team with MDZ in the lineup, again I think this may be a case of you playing favorites... You know like with Dubinsky.

Staal was the worst defenseman on this team during the month of October. It wasn't close. I watched every game. I'm saying this as someone who WANTS Staal to be back at the level he's been in the past. I'm saying this as someone who is on record as saying that a Staal in his prime is just as good as McDonagh and much better than Del Zotto. But I'm sure you're right and I'm just playing favorites.

And if you want to talk about Dubinsky, you can always go back to that other thread. You know, the one you ran away from when I pointed out that you were making up statistics because your argument was crap.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

The issue for me is that you have a lot more faith in our lesser LDs than I do. You are comfortable with John Moore as a top 4 D. He scares the hell out of me as a bottom pair D most nights. He's been awful this season, and he's not that far removed from failing to make a very mediocre Columbus D.

We're talking about a kid that's 22 and was a first round draft pick. Using "he failed to make" an NHL roster when he was 21 is kind of a joke when has over 100 games in the NHL at a young age. Doing a short spell in the AHL is completely normal. Also, Columbus' D was top 10 in the league last year, when Moore was a member of their roster. It's not like he was failing to make Florida's roster, that team could defend and that's the reason they challenged to make the playoffs last season. They probably would have made it in the East (same points as the Islanders with a harder schedule).

I can understand that you're not sold that he'll be a top 4 defenseman. However, most teams in the league have worse options if they have a stud like McDonagh or Staal go down. You can also say that he's been "awful" this year but I think you're pretty alone in that opinion and all advanced statistics I've seen lead me to believe he's been okay. I really don't see "we might have to use our 3rd pairing d-man as a 2nd pairing d-man" as a coherent argument because we're using him on the 3rd pair. The hypothetical injury situation could be solved with a hypothetical trade.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

No, it wouldn't. A decline involves a concern that a player will regress from where he is now. I'm concerned about whether Staal can still be the player he's been for this team. It's about rebounding from injury--not about being worried that a 27 year old player will regress.





Staal was the worst defenseman on this team during the month of October. It wasn't close. I watched every game. I'm saying this as someone who WANTS Staal to be back at the level he's been in the past. I'm saying this as someone who is on record as saying that a Staal in his prime is just as good as McDonagh and much better than Del Zotto. But I'm sure you're right and I'm just playing favorites.

And if you want to talk about Dubinsky, you can always go back to that other thread. You know, the one you ran away from when I pointed out that you were making up statistics because your argument was crap.

Haha, ok. A decline means playing below his peak level, so if he doesn't return to peak level you can consider it a decline in play due to injury. Tomato / tomatoe. I don't care if you want Staal to return to his previous level or not you are romanticizing MDZ. It's as simple as that.

Ran away? Please I have a life outside of bickering with you there is probably a good chance I didn't see it, so don't go patting yourself on the back too hard.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

So they shouldnt trade Del Zotto because Staal might leave in the summer of 2015?

Yea, thats how you manage assets.

If Del Zotto filled Staals skill set then yes that is exactly how you would manage your assets.

He doesn't. Staal is physical, stay at home, defensive defenseman. Del Zotto isn't physical, he's not stay at home, and while he's neither a defensive defenseman or an offensive defenseman he's certainly not a defensive defenseman.

If management thought Del Zotto was going to fill Staal's shoes in the event that he left - i.e if Del Zotto was at the place he was now (not really being effective but potential to break out was still there) and he was projected to take Staal's spot, he would not be traded.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

what about Del Zotto, Brian Boyle, 1st in 2014 1st in 2016 to Jets for E Kane, Jacob Trouba

if Kane goes to Habs for Pacorietty im gonna be one pissed off fan.

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/nhl-morning-rumor-mill-november-15-2013/

if Kane is available, Sather better try to snag him..

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

what about Del Zotto, Brian Boyle, 1st in 2014 1st in 2016 to Jets for E Kane, Jacob Trouba

if Kane goes to Habs for Pacorietty im gonna be one pissed off fan.

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/nhl-morning-rumor-mill-november-15-2013/

if Kane is available, Sather better try to snag him..

Kane isn't the type of player we need. Selfish, me first. He's not high efficiency. He's got attitude problems. Need a true sniper, not another floater who shoots 8 times a game right into the goalies chest logo.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

I think there's a solid proposal on the table and leaking this information is managements way of setting the deadline. Just a ploy to extract more value, either from the team that has the best offer or the other team(s) in the running.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Kane isn't the type of player we need. Selfish, me first. He's not high efficiency. He's got attitude problems. Need a true sniper, not another floater who shoots 8 times a game right into the goalies chest logo.

Except he averages 4 shots a game...

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Kane isn't the type of player we need. Selfish, me first. He's not high efficiency. He's got attitude problems. Need a true sniper, not another floater who shoots 8 times a game right into the goalies chest logo.

6 goals 5 assist 11 pts 25 pim in 18 games..


he would be 3rd tied with McDonagh in pts, yea who needs that scoring with some grit. lets get another soft player that passes too much and is not too selfish on the ice..

 

[E-Train]

what about Del Zotto, Brian Boyle, 1st in 2014 1st in 2016 to Jets for E Kane, Jacob Trouba

if Kane goes to Habs for Pacorietty im gonna be one pissed off fan.

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/nhl-morning-rumor-mill-november-15-2013/

if Kane is available, Sather better try to snag him..

You're not getting Kane AND Trouba for that package let alone Kane. If I'm the Jets GM, I take a package around Patches way before your offer.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

I think there's a solid proposal on the table and leaking this information is managements way of setting the deadline. Just a ploy to extract more value, either from the team that has the best offer or the other team(s) in the running.

so you think a trade is in the works... i wonder when the deadline is...

 

[Thirty One]

Please I have a life outside of bickering with you

What's that like?

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Except he averages 4 shots a game...

It was an exaggeration... called "hyperbole"... look it up

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

im gonna take a guess that its Del Zotto to Tampa Bay. just a feeling i have been having the past few days.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

What's that like?

Idk because I made it up.

It was an exaggeration... called "hyperbole"... look it up

Haha this guy.

You're using hyperbole to try and persuade someone that acquiring a player is a bad idea? I guess this is HF. If you're just going to exaggerate why even reply? Shows you haven't seen much of Kane because the argument could be made he isn't shooting enough. But he's selfish and all that because he took a picture of himself with stacks of cash?

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

so you think a trade is in the works... i wonder when the deadline is...

Soon.
E4