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HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #89: 2024-2025 season part II

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Deebs said:
I'm all for a veteran Center if it's the right fit. I'm saying I don't know if Horvat is that piece. I'm not an avid Islanders watcher.
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Islanders are probably looking for a retool more than a full rebuild. Not even sure if they would move Horvat. I created a Horvat value thread on the main board... lets see how that shit show goes.
 
ReHabs said:
It's foolish borderline negligent to "wait for" sub-elite prospects to fill roster gaps. It's a perfect way to rush prospects, have them fail and wilt, and usher in a losing culture.

Prospects should push players out of chairs, they shouldn't be given a reserved chair right off the bat. Doing the latter means the roster is terrible and we're well past that point in our rebuild.
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I'm with you on that. I like our youth and rebuild and pieces coming but we can't stay put for much longer without addressing holes by using some of our futures.

We might not have a situation where we have two good 1st rounders to use in a trade... in the future. All of us remember the years we wasted of Price's prime and value contract. In those years, we didn't have the futures we have today in trades.

I am more open to having a LD play RD and going after that critical 2C need. Get Evans signed and jet let Dach and Newhook expire or trade them when they are near the end of their bridge. Suzuki, 2C 2way stud, Evans is center depth that lasts for years! Figure it out!

If we keep our 1st rounders, lets try to hit on more Hage hits. Having a few grade A prospects will help if there is a future trade that comes out of nowhere (things we don't see today).
 
Habs Halifax said:
Guhle / Matheson
Hutson / Reinbacher
Xhekaj / Carrier

I like Carrier with Xhekaj but we would need to see more sample size. Guhle and Matheson worked fine before. Can Reinbacher be the right guy for Hutson? This would be a pairing that needs some sheltering and lots of offensive zone draws.

Then we wonder about both Engstrom and Mailloux. I believe Enstrom can play both sides as well but way too early to consider that. I still like Mailloux very much but he needs to mature in the D zone.

What about BK from Russia? When does his KHL contract expire? I think our options in our D core is there but it's more of a maturity problem than an ability problem. With 2C, we have Hage and Dach and that is basically it. Hage is years away from being able to take a 2C load.
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For MTL to be successful, they will need to move from Matheson. Two thing play against him: he's a LD and not solid enough defensively by being too prone to mistake/turnover. This put him in a situation where he cant find a good chair for him. If MTL want to keep Guhle, Hutson and Xhekaj, and Carrier... he'll never be in a position to succeed and will be a weak link on that D group.
 
Kosseca said:
For MTL to be successful, they will need to move from Matheson. Two thing play against him: he's a LD and not solid enough defensively by being too prone to mistake/turnover. This put him in a situation where he cant find a good chair for him. If MTL want to keep Guhle, Hutson and Xhekaj, and Carrier... he'll never be in a position to succeed and will be a weak link on that D group.
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I think the other way around. We need a solid 2C and to extend Evans. Lets get the f***ing puck in the offensive zone and keep it there more. Not the other way around. Imagine blaming Matheson because Dach can't win a faceoff and we are under attack in our zone more than we should be? This is what our fan base is doing to Matheson. Matheson and Suzuki are wore out. We are leaning on them a lot! Matheson makes less mistakes and turnovers than a lot of guys in the NHL that you would value. Dobson is one or them. Theodore is another. Our fan base is very guilty of obsessively watching mistakes and ignoring usage.

Ability is not the problem. Usage is the problem with Matheson. Matheson is 3rd in the NHL in ice time over the last two seasons. Think about that bud! MSL does not have as many options as we think he does. Getting rid of Matheson means what? Hutson is more exposed and the others just can't handle that load.

If you respect Suzuki and his leadership... we should listen and receive the message Suzuki said. We are leaning on Matheson a lot and it's a usage problem. We are wearing him out bud. We are wearing out both Suzuki and Matheson.
 
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Habs Halifax said:
I think the other way around. We need a solid 2C and to extend Evans. Lets get the f***ing puck in the offensive zone and keep it there more. Not the other way around. Imagine blaming Matheson because Dach can't win a faceoff and we are under attack in our zone more than we should be? This is what our fan base is doing to Matheson. Matheson and Suzuki are wore out. We are leaning on them a lot! Matheson makes less mistakes and turnovers than a lot of guys in the NHL that you would value. Dobson is one or them. Theodore is another. Our fan base is very guilty of obsessively watching mistakes and ignoring usage.

Ability is not the problem. Usage is the problem with Matheson. Matheson is 3rd in the NHL in ice time over the last two seasons. Think about that bud! MSL does not have as many options as we think he does. Getting rid of Matheson means what? Hutson is more exposed and the others just can't handle that load.

If you respect Suzuki and his leadership... we should listen and receive the message Suzuki said. We are leaning on Matheson a lot and it's a usage problem. We are wearing him out bud. We are wearing out both Suzuki and Matheson.
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We can keep the puck in the O zone if we can't move it out of our Dzone first quickly. In recent game, the D group hasn't been able to stop incoming attack and retrive the puck quickly to back the other way. the number of time they "eat" the puck on the wall, creating 1 on 1 battle in insane. Most of these are due to mismanaging the puck when they have it. Matheson is getting real good at that.... bad pass, puck jump over a stick. no open option and bad flip center ice. Can't generate offense if you dont exit cleanly on a regular basis.

Now, dont get me wrong, I agree that we need a 2c, and even if you get a top 4 RD, you are still in trouble with Dach/Laine duo.

To be honest, if I was in KH position, I would try to trade Matheson+ for a 2c. and Mailloux+ for a top 4RD. Resign Evans, trade Savard, Dvorak and armia

CC-Suzuki-Slaf
Dach - trade - Demidov
Laine - Newhook - Heineman
Kapanen - Evans - Anderson.

Guhle - trade
Hutson - Reinbacker
Xhakaj - Carrier
 
Kosseca said:
We can keep the puck in the O zone if we can't move it out of our Dzone first quickly. In recent game, the D group hasn't been able to stop incoming attack and retrive the puck quickly to back the other way. the number of time they "eat" the puck on the wall, creating 1 on 1 battle in insane. Most of these are due to mismanaging the puck when they have it. Matheson is getting real good at that.... bad pass, puck jump over a stick. no open option and bad flip center ice. Can't generate offense if you dont exit cleanly on a regular basis.

Now, dont get me wrong, I agree that we need a 2c, and even if you get a top 4 RD, you are still in trouble with Dach/Laine duo.

To be honest, if I was in KH position, I would try to trade Matheson+ for a 2c. and Mailloux+ for a top 4RD. Resign Evans, trade Savard, Dvorak and armia

CC-Suzuki-Slaf
Dach - trade - Demidov
Laine - Newhook - Heineman
Kapanen - Evans - Anderson.

Guhle - trade
Hutson - Reinbacker
Xhakaj - Carrier
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I just don't see us being able to find both a top 4RD and a 2C in trades or UFA. I feel we will be forced to move one of our LD's to the RD side and we can trade or sign a 2C. Those top 4RD's are almost impossible to get. The good ones anyways.

For now, we have to live with Matheson. First step is Reinbacher taking one of the RD spots and pushing Carrier to Xhekaj.

Too bad Reinbacher got injured. We would have a lot more information on him today
 
Habs Halifax said:
We have to stop turning down 30-36 contracts like Horvat. If we want to contend, we need to consider our roster will have a stud from 30-36 and older than Suzuki. Are we going to let Suzuki walk when he is 30 and needs a new contract? I think not

If Horvat's skating report is solid and the Islanders like a Dach, 1st, and Roy offer, make it happen. A $8.5M contract is the old $6.5M contract moving forward. It fits more than it don't fit.

I'm a Dubois fan. Lets set him aside in terms of "he sucks" or "he is still a good player" arguments. The point here is we need a work horse at 2C. Someone with sound skating, can win battles, win faceoffs, and chip in 50-70 pts.
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Horvat has a full NTC so no chance he waives it to go to a non contender.
 
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salbutera said:
I’m keeping an eye out on Ryan Lindgren or K’Andre Miller - one of them is getting dealt by NYR….. I would think Gorton would be all over that.

Lindgren exclusively plays the right side despite being a Lefty
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Lindgren plays on the left side with Fox. LHD is our only position of strength so neither make any sense.
 
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Leon Lucius Black said:
Lindgren plays on the left side with Fox. LHD is our only position of strength so neither make any sense.
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Rangers team D took a massive hit after trading Trouba. 20th in goals against per game this year and 7th last season.

Trouba might be a good fit for Hutson (believe it or not). Would he come here and fit in our team culture well? Not sure. It would be a contract year for Trouba next season.
 
Habs Halifax said:
We have to stop turning down 30-36 contracts like Horvat. If we want to contend, we need to consider our roster will have a stud from 30-36 and older than Suzuki. Are we going to let Suzuki walk when he is 30 and needs a new contract? I think not

If Horvat's skating report is solid and the Islanders like a Dach, 1st, and Roy offer, make it happen. A $8.5M contract is the old $6.5M contract moving forward. It fits more than it don't fit.

I'm a Dubois fan. Lets set him aside in terms of "he sucks" or "he is still a good player" arguments. The point here is we need a work horse at 2C. Someone with sound skating, can win battles, win faceoffs, and chip in 50-70 pts.
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I disagree. If you look at the most important players of the last cup winners they were mostly guys in their 20ies.

Florida : Reinhart 27, Tkachuk 25, Barkov 27, Forsling 27, Montour 29, Ekblad 27
Colorado : Rantanen 24, MacKinnon 26, Kadri 30, Makar 22, Toews 27,
TB (2021) : Point 24, Hedman 29, Stamkos 30, Kucherov 27, Sergachev 22, McDo 31
TB (2020) : Kucherov 26, Stamkos 29, Hedman 28, Point 23, Sergachev 21, McDo 30
Stl : ROR 27, Tarasenko 26, Schenn 27, Pietrangelo 28, Parayko 25
Caps : Ovy 31, Kuznetsov 25, Backstrom 29, Carlson 27, Orlov 26, Niskanen 30
Pens (2017) : Crosby 29, Malkin 30, Kessel 28, Letang 29, Guentzel 21, Schultz 26
Pens (2016) : Crosby 28, Malkin 29, Kessel 27, Letang 28, Hornqvist 28
Hawks : Toews 26, Kane 25, Hossa 35, Keith 31, Seabrook 29, Hjalmarsson 27, Sharp 32
Vegas : Eichel 25, Stephenson 25, Marchesseault 31, Karlsson 29, Pientrangelo 32, Theodore 27,

The vast majority of those players are at the end of their 20ies. For one our core is not ready since our core is not around 25-27. For two like i said the vast majoriry of important players of cup winners are between 25-30. Acquiring a guy 30 now means he would be well over 30 once Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Hutson and Demidov are ready to win.

One notable thing about those teams is they stopped to be legit cup contenders once their players turned 32-33. What we need to do is be patient. Not spend assets for guys over 30. Yes we gonna fill holes with vets but we can get cheap vets for now. In 2-3 years it will be the time to strike. For now if we can land a top players around 26-27 yes sure do it but older than that no we should not pay unless the price is Justin Barron, Jordan Harris or Jayden Struble.
 
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LaP said:
I disagree. If you look at the most important players of the last cup winners they were mostly guys in their 20ies.

Florida : Reinhart 27, Tkachuk 25, Barkov 27, Forsling 27, Montour 29, Ekblad 27
Colorado : Rantanen 24, MacKinnon 26, Kadri 30, Makar 22, Toews 27,
TB (2021) : Point 24, Hedman 29, Stamkos 30, Kucherov 27, Sergachev 22, McDo 31
TB (2020) : Kucherov 26, Stamkos 29, Hedman 28, Point 23, Sergachev 21, McDo 30
Stl : ROR 27, Tarasenko 26, Schenn 27, Pietrangelo 28, Parayko 25
Caps : Ovy 31, Kuznetsov 25, Backstrom 29, Carlson 27, Orlov 26, Niskanen 30
Pens (2017) : Crosby 29, Malkin 30, Kessel 28, Letang 29, Guentzel 21, Schultz 26
Pens (2016) : Crosby 28, Malkin 29, Kessel 27, Letang 28, Hornqvist 28
Hawks : Toews 26, Kane 25, Hossa 35, Keith 31, Seabrook 29, Hjalmarsson 27, Sharp 32
Vegas : Eichel 25, Stephenson 25, Marchesseault 31, Karlsson 29, Pientrangelo 32, Theodore 27,

The vast majority of those players are at the end of their 20ies. For one our core is not ready since our core is not around 25-27. For two like i said the vast majoriry of important players of cup winners are between 25-30. Acquiring a guy 30 now means he would be well over 30 once Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Hutson and Demidov are ready to win.

One notable thing about those teams is they stopped to be legit cup contenders once their players turned 32-33. What we need to do is be patient. Not spend assets for guys over 30. Yes we gonna fill holes with vets but we can get cheap vets for now. In 2-3 years it will be the time to strike. For now if we can land a top players around 26-27 yes sure do it but older than that no we should not pay unless the price is Justin Barron.
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You looking at it to direct. You do realize the Panthers won a cup with Bob who was 35 last year. How can you forget that part? Knights won with Pietrangelo who was 33.

Just because we might add someone in the 30-36 range, it don't mean the core will be all in that range. We already have a solid core from Suzuki to Demidov that will grow together. There are holes to fill and sitting back wasting prime years of Suzuki on a value contract is just dumb. Adding one contract (Horvat for example) is not going to make our core old overnight. It makes one player in that range.

Draisaitl is 30 next year. Oilers are in trouble right? They will never win a cup now. Tampa should just give up... all of their talent is mostly 30+. See how dumb this sounds?
 
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"[Arpon] Basu has floated the idea of trading Armia and Evans as a 'package.' The other team would add the league's best penalty kill duo and a ready-made fourth line with established chemistry. That could fetch a huge haul in return. Not a bad idea."
 
Habs Halifax said:
You looking at it to direct. You do realize the Panthers won a cup with Bob who was 35 last year. How can you forget that part? Knights won with Pietrangelo who was 33.

Just because we might add someone in the 30-36 range, it don't mean the core will be all in that range. We already have a solid core from Suzuki to Demidov that will grow together. There are holes to fill and sitting back wasting prime years of Suzuki on a value contract is just dumb. Adding one contract (Horvat for example) is not going to make our core old overnight. It makes one player in that range.
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Bob has a good chance to be in the HOF at one point. One cup, two vezinas, 914 saves % in career. 418 wins (11th all time). Those are HOF numbers. There's exception like everything. Pientrangelo is a surefire HOF guy too. I mean if you can land Crosby yeah i'm all for it will be good for the kids. But Horvat? He is the type of guy who is more often than not done at 33.
 
LaP said:
Bob has a good chance to be in the HOF at one point. ONe cup, two vezina, 915 saves % in career. Those are HOF numbers. There's exception like everything.
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Bob also had a very rough ride in his first few years with the Panthers. At one point, he was considered to have one of the worse contracts in the NHL.

I get your point but adding one piece from age 30-36 to join our Suzuki to Demidov core does not make our team old.

Oilers:
* Ekholm (34)
* Hyman (32)
* RNH (31)

McDavid is 28 and Drai is 29. I'm pretty sure they will be fine with Ekholm, Hyman, and RNH in their 30's and McDavid/Drai soon to be 30
 
Habs Halifax said:
Bob also had a very rough ride in his first few years with the Panthers. At one point, he was considered to have one of the worse contracts in the NHL.

I get your point but adding one piece from age 30-36 to join our Suzuki to Demidov core does not make our team old.
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I'm not against it if we are talking about HOF quality guys. But come on Bo Horvat give me a break. The guy is not that good in his prime ... if he's cheap sure but i would not pay for this kind of 30+ guys.
 
LaP said:
I'm not against it if we are talking about HOF quality guys. But come on Bo Horvat give me a break. The guy is not that good in his prime ... if he's cheap sure but i would not pay for this kind of 30+ guys.
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OK, sit back and waste prime years of Suzuki on a value contract then. Just like we did with Price. See where that goes.

Horvat is not much different than the Oilers having Ekholm, RNH, and Hyman. Horvat is probably not available but we all get the point here. We need to add a warrior at 2C. Sooner rather than later

Imagine if the Kings called us and offered Dubois for Matheson straight up and we said no? I have no doubt that the Habs engaged offers for Dubois and I would love to know what they were.
 
Habs Halifax said:
Oilers:
* Ekholm (34)
* Hyman (32)
* RNH (31)

McDavid is 28 and Drai is 29. I'm pretty sure they will be fine with Ekholm, Hyman, and RNH in their 30's and McDavid/Drai soon to be 30
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Yes because they are 28 and 29. If they would be 22-23 no they would not be. Anf if they were 22-23 by the time they would be 28-29 those guys would be way too old. That's my point don'T spend assets on guys who will be too old when Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Hutson and Demidov will be ready and make no mistake they wont be before at least 2-3 more years. For now go find cheap vets to help them. If you can land a top player do it if not stand pat.
 
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