HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #85 - Offseason Editon

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nhlfan9191

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Josh Anderson was worth something. Right? And if he has another low-productive season and is a year older and maybe at risk of more injury he will be presumably worth less than that, right?

If all of Hofmann, Armia, Dvorak, and Anderson are worth nothing then the Habs should’ve buried, sold off, or bought out their contracts to clear up room for players who are factors to our team’s future. Simple stuff. Hughes defenders prefer to argue out of both sides: the players are worthless and irrelevant but also need to be retained for fear of losing them for less than their value — meanwhile the Habs cannot acquire actually good players and roster upgrades due to lack of roster spots. Very smart.
I don’t think Anderson is as simple as you think. Hughes likely wants value on top of not retaining anything and the teams that would be interested will likely have a hard time fitting somebody whose best fit is on a third line at $5.5 million with a flat cap. I think we’ll see more interest when teams get more flexibility in a year.
 

ReHabs

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Just because you want to trade players, doesn’t mean Hughes does and that he’s being greedy. The fact you don’t realize Hoffman and Armia are not going to get you anything is scary. If Hughes could’ve traded them for future considerations, he would’ve. Zero doubt about that. It’s not worth paying another team to take them as we have the space and aren’t competing now, so why waste assets to unload them?
Don’t be scared, I’m well aware those two have little trade value. I’ve commented many times they should be bought out — and I’ve taken into account the cap penalty. A pair of buyouts would’ve been an aggressive and necessary move — in particular for floater Joel Armia who was at or below replacement level last season.

It’s penny wise pound foolish to deny rookies roster spots and not sign roster upgrades and instead hoard cap space and ‘assets’ (late round picks? Who cares) whilst retaining irrelevant players like Hofmann and Armia.

But we were talking about Anderson:

Savard, Anderson are two of the only vets in the team and serve a purpose and are productive.
Not productive enough to retain at all costs.
Just because you don’t like them or want to trade them, doesn’t mean your sentiment is shared with the team or management. Habs are already on the smaller side and have virtually no RD depth, so both those players are important to building a roster. Savard and Matheson are also the only vets on D, and Hughes expressed his desire to only implement a couple of rookie D last year until injuries took hold and was forced to play more rookies than they wanted to. Savard is on a good contract and plays his role well. Don’t see the need to trade him at all.
I like Savard and agree with your take, I would prefer to retain him. But in the greater scheme of rebuilding and escaping the gravitational pull of “Loser Team” we need to shed dead weight — not one of the aforementioned players will feature in our future.

So it is plainly obvious that Hughes did have pieces he could move but chose to sit on his hands and talk about culture instead (while the team lost but missed on a top3 draft pick).

Hughes hasn’t been able yet to do the hard part (assemble a winning roster) or even enough of the necessary part (acquire quality players ). He’s instead held onto irrelevant players who will certainly and without any doubt have zero impact on any future competitive window.

I love the Matheson trade and Dach has upside. If they’re the best players Hughes can acquire, we are in big big trouble.

So while you’d like to trade any and everyone for futures, they do need to field an NHL roster and mentor young players. If Hughes could get rid of the deadweight, he would but you need another team to be willing to take them on. It will take time, patience and creativity as it’s not as simple as you’d like to believe it to be. The hockey world isn’t as dumb as you may think they are and aren’t going to pay Montreal anything worth while for our deadwood, despite what you hope for. Sorry, this is real life and not a video game.
Buries and buyouts exist for a reason. Other teams manoeuvre aggressively. Hughes has been cautious so far.

It is real life — good teams do what it takes to maximize their chances of success at all times. Bad teams think they can wait it out while the sand washes away under their feet… and fans eat it up because they think time is not a valuable resource, on video games you can sim through seasons. In real life it doesn’t work that way.

What happened to Anderson talk? Forgot about him?

I don’t think Anderson is as simple as you think. Hughes likely wants value on top of not retaining anything and the teams that would be interested will likely have a hard time fitting somebody whose best fit is on a third line at $5.5 million with a flat cap. I think we’ll see more interest when teams get more flexibility in a year.
Well… Hughes shouldn’t be so greedy. That’s my original comment, and I’m sticking to it.

Anderson is a 0.5ppg player if we’re being generous. Has significant injury history and isn’t as physical as his reputation implies. He is not capable of east-west play and is extremely hot and cold in terms of production. He had 6pts in 22gp in our big playoff run. His reputation across the league is not particularly growing since that point either.

Is he worth keeping just to keep? Is he worth selling just to sell? I don’t have an answer but my position on it is that Hughes need to make up his mind. Some here say that Hughes has taken a direction but I don’t see it, I see him hedging and sitting on his hands. Rushing Slafkovsky and starting the season with four rookie dmen on one hand and refusing to sell or get rid of Hoffman and Anderson, extending Jake Allen to an unmovable contract on the other.
 

ReHabs

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Missed your reply, sorry.
Neither did Bergevin, but he didn't ever have the cap space to make major additions. Having 8 mil in cap space means you can make Armia trades or sign guys like Chiarot or Edmundson. Having 20+ mil means you can make the Trouba trade and sign guys like Panarin.
So it is your assertion a team needs 20m in cap space before it can acquire good players? This clearly isn't right. And what if good players don't want to join a team that doesn't use cap space in a competitive way?
He also didn't acquire any 1sts, and Montreal was rarely in a position where the 1sts ever had significant value. He traded Sergachev which was a high pick, but didn't trade Kotkaniemi and then lost him due to mismanagement after not developing him properly. His loss is Carolina's gain, as KK is finally starting to look like the two-way top-6 center he was drafted to be. He also didn't develop prospects to the point they had actual trade value.
He was a bad GM, yes.
He also added key peices like Petry, Danault, etc. by not giving up too much.
They weren't key enough -- the Habs were constantly under-powered and never had a good enough centreman.
Pacioretty also became Suzuki AND Tatar, who was pretty effective in Montreal (during the regular season at least).
Tatar was not a relevant player when it mattered -- Bergevin and his handpicked coach preferred to play a very injured Toffoli and Gallagher rather than a fully healthy Tatar. You can't have it both ways -- Tatar was clearly not added to the core.
Montreal had core pieces missing and Bergevin was never in a position to actually acquire those guys. Like, people bring up ROR, but even if Montreal had traded the 3rd OA for him, they still wouldn't be a serious contender. Because they didn't have other pieces to seriously contend.
If after 5+ years Bergevin was not in a position to acquire good players to add to the core, then he was a very bad GM. I'm surprised you're making excuses for a guy who had 10 years to build a team and failed to do the minimum.
 

Sterling Archer

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Don’t be scared, I’m well aware those two have little trade value. I’ve commented many times they should be bought out — and I’ve taken into account the cap penalty. A pair of buyouts would’ve been an aggressive and necessary move — in particular for floater Joel Armia who was at or below replacement level last season.

It’s penny wise pound foolish to deny rookies roster spots and not sign roster upgrades and instead hoard cap space and ‘assets’ (late round picks? Who cares) whilst retaining irrelevant players like Hofmann and Armia.

But we were talking about Anderson:


Not productive enough to retain at all costs.

I like Savard and agree with your take, I would prefer to retain him. But in the greater scheme of rebuilding and escaping the gravitational pull of “Loser Team” we need to shed dead weight — not one of the aforementioned players will feature in our future.

So it is plainly obvious that Hughes did have pieces he could move but chose to sit on his hands and talk about culture instead (while the team lost but missed on a top3 draft pick).

Hughes hasn’t been able yet to do the hard part (assemble a winning roster) or even enough of the necessary part (acquire quality players ). He’s instead held onto irrelevant players who will certainly and without any doubt have zero impact on any future competitive window.

I love the Matheson trade and Dach has upside. If they’re the best players Hughes can acquire, we are in big big trouble.


Buries and buyouts exist for a reason. Other teams manoeuvre aggressively. Hughes has been cautious so far.

It is real life — good teams do what it takes to maximize their chances of success at all times. Bad teams think they can wait it out while the sand washes away under their feet… and fans eat it up because they think time is not a valuable resource, on video games you can sim through seasons. In real life it doesn’t work that way.

What happened to Anderson talk? Forgot about him?


Well… Hughes shouldn’t be so greedy. That’s my original comment, and I’m sticking to it.

Anderson is a 0.5ppg player if we’re being generous. Has significant injury history and isn’t as physical as his reputation implies. He is not capable of east-west play and is extremely hot and cold in terms of production. He had 6pts in 22gp in our big playoff run. His reputation across the league is not particularly growing since that point either.

Is he worth keeping just to keep? Is he worth selling just to sell? I don’t have an answer but my position on it is that Hughes need to make up his mind. Some here say that Hughes has taken a direction but I don’t see it, I see him hedging and sitting on his hands. Rushing Slafkovsky and starting the season with four rookie dmen on one hand and refusing to sell or get rid of Hoffman and Anderson, extending Jake Allen to an unmovable contract on the other.
You don’t seem to realize the spot Montreal is in despite Hughes outlining his plan. They’re not competing. They don’t need to buyout anyone and if the kid an are good enough, they’ll sit the vets like they did last year. It’s an actual meritocracy, which I’m fine with.

Hoffman may have some value at the deadline. Armia, likely not until next year. Monahan, hopefully he’ll be healthy. Gally, never happening, Savard is here for awhile so he’s not going anywhere and most of the rest of the roster are kids. So I’m not sure what you’re hoping for here. It takes time and patience which will pay off next offseason when Habs have millions in cap space, can cut out deadwood and begin to compete. This is not the year for that, whether you like it or not.

So Hughes isn’t “greedy” as much as he’s patient and aware of the position his in as well as the assets he has and what they’re value are. He’s the one taking calls and possible offers from other GMs and frankly, he’s not in a position where he needs to sell assets for pennies on the dollar for the sake of making a change to make posters like you happy. He’s shown he has a set value and will execute once that value is met. It’s called asset management and being a good GM.
 

DAChampion

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Just because you want to trade players, doesn’t mean Hughes does and that he’s being greedy. The fact you don’t realize Hoffman and Armia are not going to get you anything is scary. If Hughes could’ve traded them for future considerations, he would’ve. Zero doubt about that. It’s not worth paying another team to take them as we have the space and aren’t competing now, so why waste assets to unload them?

To free up roster spots.

But the price of trading Armia and Hoffman might be too high, and roster spots might be freed up by injuries.

But there might be some good players on waivers in a few weeks. That alone may be reason enough to drop Hoffman and Armia.
 
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Sterling Archer

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To free up roster spots.

But the price of trading Armia and Hoffman might be too high, and roster spots might be freed up by injuries.

But there might be some good players on waivers in a few weeks. That alone may be reason enough to drop Hoffman and Armia.

I have no problem with a rookie taking their spots. I just don’t see the need of giving assets up to free a roster spot a kid hasn’t earned. If a kid takes a spot and holds it, then sit the vet and worry about it in season. As injures always happen spots will open anyways and in the meantime, you can ease kids in. I just don’t see the urgency at the moment.
 

ReHabs

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You don’t seem to realize the spot Montreal is in despite Hughes outlining his plan. They’re not competing. They don’t need to buyout anyone and if the kid an are good enough, they’ll sit the vets like they did last year. It’s an actual meritocracy, which I’m fine with.

Hoffman may have some value at the deadline. Armia, likely not until next year. Monahan, hopefully he’ll be healthy. Gally, never happening, Savard is here for awhile so he’s not going anywhere and most of the rest of the roster are kids. So I’m not sure what you’re hoping for here. It takes time and patience which will pay off next offseason when Habs have millions in cap space, can cut out deadwood and begin to compete. This is not the year for that, whether you like it or not.

So Hughes isn’t “greedy” as much as he’s patient and aware of the position his in as well as the assets he has and what they’re value are. He’s the one taking calls and possible offers from other GMs and frankly, he’s not in a position where he needs to sell assets for pennies on the dollar for the sake of making a change to make posters like you happy. He’s shown he has a set value and will execute once that value is met. It’s called asset management and being a good GM.
You must've said the exact same things in defence of the previous GM too. He's not passive, he's patient. He's not reactive, he's firm. Be patient. He has a plan, and it isn't to make "posters like you" happy. He will only make a move once he feels he's gotten the right value. He wins all his trades. This isn't a video game. etc.

It's funny how some of you immediately insist he is a good GM even though you also insist we need to be patient before we can see the results of his decisions. It's not funny as much as it's typical and kind of strange, imo. It didn't use to be this way. You can be pleased to wait all you want but it's obvious some of us think differently.

Moving on...

The start of this conversation was about the previous trade deadline. If you can excuse the inability to acquire a single future asset, that's fine and good for you -- I think I've made it clear that there were assets he could've sold for futures. Agree to disagree.

But it's very likely going to be the case next trade deadline as well -- only Hoffman, Pitlick, Monahan are up to expire and it's very likely two will remain worthless and the other will be injured like he has been every year of the past however many years. THIS is why I wanted to acquire one year contracts THIS SUMMER so to flip them at the trade deadline an aggressive yet common enough move for rebuilding teams.

To do so we needed cap space and roster spots. Hoffman and Armia are prime candidates to jettison to make space for such players. Pacioretty, Sprong, Wheeler, Duchene, Zucker, Domi, etc. Not all of them are right fits but these are the sorts of of players we could've overbid and acquired with the ample cap space developed from the buyouts to worthless, in-the-way Armia and Hoffman. And the cap penalty down the line would be miniscule (less than 2m at worst iirc) in the context of the gained assets from flipping the UFAs + the rising cap.

Of course you'll likely respond with "this isn't Playstation" but you wouldn't be the first to say so in defence of the Habs sitting on their hands as other teams did things to improve. As we rebuild other teams are building too -- they're more aggressive and more driven. Hughes seems more interested in betting everything on player development and the reclamation projects, as if that's the big secret the rest of the NHL didn't figure out. Meanwhile we still don't have assets to trade to acquire premium players on the market and we don't have forward prospects who are on track or expected to become premium players in the NHL. What a conundrum.

But there might be some good players on waivers in a few weeks. That alone may be reason enough to drop Hoffman and Armia.
It's too late now to buyout their contracts and it is unlikely either player will be waived and sent down. I think to pick up a waiver claim we can still send down Slafkovsky though, that'll be funny.
 

Andrei79

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Don’t be scared, I’m well aware those two have little trade value. I’ve commented many times they should be bought out — and I’ve taken into account the cap penalty. A pair of buyouts would’ve been an aggressive and necessary move — in particular for floater Joel Armia who was at or below replacement level last season.

It’s penny wise pound foolish to deny rookies roster spots and not sign roster upgrades and instead hoard cap space and ‘assets’ (late round picks? Who cares) whilst retaining irrelevant players like Hofmann and Armia.

But we were talking about Anderson:


Not productive enough to retain at all costs.

I like Savard and agree with your take, I would prefer to retain him. But in the greater scheme of rebuilding and escaping the gravitational pull of “Loser Team” we need to shed dead weight — not one of the aforementioned players will feature in our future.

So it is plainly obvious that Hughes did have pieces he could move but chose to sit on his hands and talk about culture instead (while the team lost but missed on a top3 draft pick).

Hughes hasn’t been able yet to do the hard part (assemble a winning roster) or even enough of the necessary part (acquire quality players ). He’s instead held onto irrelevant players who will certainly and without any doubt have zero impact on any future competitive window.

I love the Matheson trade and Dach has upside. If they’re the best players Hughes can acquire, we are in big big trouble.


Buries and buyouts exist for a reason. Other teams manoeuvre aggressively. Hughes has been cautious so far.

It is real life — good teams do what it takes to maximize their chances of success at all times. Bad teams think they can wait it out while the sand washes away under their feet… and fans eat it up because they think time is not a valuable resource, on video games you can sim through seasons. In real life it doesn’t work that way.

What happened to Anderson talk? Forgot about him?


Well… Hughes shouldn’t be so greedy. That’s my original comment, and I’m sticking to it.

Anderson is a 0.5ppg player if we’re being generous. Has significant injury history and isn’t as physical as his reputation implies. He is not capable of east-west play and is extremely hot and cold in terms of production. He had 6pts in 22gp in our big playoff run. His reputation across the league is not particularly growing since that point either.

Is he worth keeping just to keep? Is he worth selling just to sell? I don’t have an answer but my position on it is that Hughes need to make up his mind. Some here say that Hughes has taken a direction but I don’t see it, I see him hedging and sitting on his hands. Rushing Slafkovsky and starting the season with four rookie dmen on one hand and refusing to sell or get rid of Hoffman and Anderson, extending Jake Allen to an unmovable contract on the other.

A buyout of Arnis right now would incur cap hits of 1.4M in years three and four, when the team wants to start being competitive. Sounds like a foolish and unnecessary move.
 
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ReHabs

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A buyout of Arnis right now would incur cap hits of 1.4M in years three and four, when the team wants to start being competitive. Sounds like a foolish and unnecessary move.
1.4m in cap hit when the cap ceiling is 90m+ seems like a small thing to concern oneself. Other teams are using buyouts left and right, why the excessive caution?

By shedding Armie the Habs can utilize Ylonen or another grinder player with more upside and more trade value. Acquiring an asset or several AND developing players in exchange for 1.4m cap hit seems not foolish or unnecessary.
 
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Andrei79

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1.4m in cap hit when the cap ceiling is 90m+ seems like a small thing to concern oneself. Other teams are using buyouts left and right, why the excessive caution?

By shedding Armie the Habs can utilize Ylonen or another grinder player with more upside and more trade value. Acquiring an asset or several AND developing players in exchange for 1.4m cap hit seems not foolish or unnecessary.

So, while observing just how much contenders are penny pinching and trying to find any sort of cap space for TDL acquisitions, your strategy would be to add on four years of dead cap, the two highest being when the window starts. To give more time to the worst of the bottom 6 winger. So that he has trade value, as the worst of the bottom 6. Because that's who would get benched, the worst guy in the bottom 6. That's definitely a strategy.
 

ReHabs

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So, while observing just how much contenders are penny pinching and trying to find any sort of cap space for TDL acquisitions, your strategy would be to add on four years of dead cap, the two highest being when the window starts. To give more time to the worst of the bottom 6 winger. So that he has trade value, as the worst of the bottom 6. Because that's who would get benched, the worst guy in the bottom 6. That's definitely a strategy.
The penny pinching is happening due to the flat cap, which finishes as of the coming season. Otherwise, contenders tend to splash the cash around too and aren't shy to spend assets to acquire players they want. Surely you'd agree.

The buyout window has passed so this is a moot point but... Years 1 and 2 would've been big cap savings which could have been used to acquire a better player than Armia for those years and have trade value. It isn't hard to find better players than Armia. Years 3 and 4 is a slight 1.4m hit which is easily absorbed or justified as stated above.

In summary the Habs could have opened a spot to play Ylonen (1m cap hit) IN ADDITION TO signing a UFA player with a cap hit of up to 2.3m and so be ahead in asset-value and on-ice performance because Armia is a dreadful performer at this point.
1689419838297.png


I don't understand the rest of your comment, sorry.
 

Sterling Archer

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The penny pinching is happening due to the flat cap, which finishes as of the coming season. Otherwise, contenders tend to splash the cash around too and aren't shy to spend assets to acquire players they want. Surely you'd agree.

The buyout window has passed so this is a moot point but... Years 1 and 2 would've been big cap savings which could have been used to acquire a better player than Armia for those years and have trade value. It isn't hard to find better players than Armia. Years 3 and 4 is a slight 1.4m hit which is easily absorbed or justified as stated above.

In summary the Habs could have opened a spot to play Ylonen (1m cap hit) IN ADDITION TO signing a UFA player with a cap hit of up to 2.3m and so be ahead in asset-value and on-ice performance because Armia is a dreadful performer at this point.
View attachment 729043

I don't understand the rest of your comment, sorry.
BUT WHY? Theirs is no reason to buy him out. You can sit him or send him down. Buying him out will cost you future dollars you may need and accomplishes absolutely nothing.
 

ReHabs

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BUT WHY? Theirs is no reason to buy him out. You can sit him or send him down. Buying him out will cost you future dollars you may need and accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Mate, I wrote my argument above. You can disagree and argue back but don't act like you didn't see it. Very strange behaviour.


Did you read this?
In summary the Habs could have opened a spot to play Ylonen (1m cap hit) IN ADDITION TO signing a UFA player with a cap hit of up to 2.3m and so be ahead in asset-value and on-ice performance because Armia is a dreadful performer at this point.

See the bolded part below as well:
But it's very likely going to be the case next trade deadline as well -- only Hoffman, Pitlick, Monahan are up to expire and it's very likely two will remain worthless and the other will be injured like he has been every year of the past however many years. THIS is why I wanted to acquire one year contracts THIS SUMMER so to flip them at the trade deadline an aggressive yet common enough move for rebuilding teams.

To do so we needed cap space and roster spots. Hoffman and Armia are prime candidates to jettison to make space for such players. Pacioretty, Sprong, Wheeler, Duchene, Zucker, Domi, etc. Not all of them are right fits but these are the sorts of of players we could've overbid and acquired with the ample cap space developed from the buyouts to worthless, in-the-way Armia and Hoffman. And the cap penalty down the line would be miniscule (less than 2m at worst iirc) in the context of the gained assets from flipping the UFAs + the rising cap.

Feel free to disagree but I stated my argument for maximizing assets as clearly as possible.

--

Wild to me that Tatar isn't signed

Quote from another poster:
He will 100% improve a team this year. 5 on 5 he was apart of one of the best lines in hockey. His advanced analytics are elite and he is a 50 point player, led the NHL in +/- and can be on the 2nd PP Unit.

Contenders will be scared off due to back to back poor playoff showings for them, but he is a good NHL player and Top 6 / Top 9 forward who I assume c an be gotten on the cheap.

Hell, I could see the Devils bring him back for 1 year if his price comes down enough.

View attachment 728000
 
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Sterling Archer

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Mate, I wrote my argument above. You can disagree and argue back but don't act like you didn't see it. Very strange behaviour.


Did you read this?


See the bolded part below as well:


Feel free to disagree but I stated my argument for maximizing assets as clearly as possible.

--

Wild to me that Tatar isn't signed

Quote from another poster:
I disagree.
 

BLONG7

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No matter what............to start the season at the very least one of Armia or Hoff has to be traded or bought out...........we need the spot moreso than the cap space....

The kids are coming.....

Would you guys add a 2nd to get rid of either Hoff or Armia? I would...
 
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Sterling Archer

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No matter what............to start the season at the very least one of Armia or Hoff has to be traded or bought out...........we need the spot moreso than the cap space....

The kids are coming.....

Would you guys add a 2nd to get rid of either Hoff or Armia? I would...
I say let the kids take the spot away and earn it. Shouldn’t be too difficult considering. If they can’t, well then they can keep learning and get a chance though injury or playing well in Laval. I’m in no hurry to rush kids who may not be ready but happy to make room if they are.
 

BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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I say let the kids take the spot away and earn it. Shouldn’t be too difficult considering. If they can’t, well then they can keep learning and get a chance though injury or playing well in Laval. I’m in no hurry to rush kids who may not be ready but happy to make room if they are.
I agree and the least expensive option for future cap years is to simply waive any vets this year who are not strong enough to play for the team.

A trade is fine, buyouts unnecesssary. We can use a retention slot on Hoffman if we need to.
 

Andrei79

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The penny pinching is happening due to the flat cap, which finishes as of the coming season. Otherwise, contenders tend to splash the cash around too and aren't shy to spend assets to acquire players they want. Surely you'd agree.

The buyout window has passed so this is a moot point but... Years 1 and 2 would've been big cap savings which could have been used to acquire a better player than Armia for those years and have trade value. It isn't hard to find better players than Armia. Years 3 and 4 is a slight 1.4m hit which is easily absorbed or justified as stated above.

In summary the Habs could have opened a spot to play Ylonen (1m cap hit) IN ADDITION TO signing a UFA player with a cap hit of up to 2.3m and so be ahead in asset-value and on-ice performance because Armia is a dreadful performer at this point.
View attachment 729043

I don't understand the rest of your comment, sorry.

The team has 8M of cap space, they can get a player if they want to. They don't need better on ice performance from a UFA in the bottom 6 either, it's moot at this point of the teams competitive cycle. And your point about Ylonen makes no sense. If there's a spot for him if they sign a player, there's a spot for him if they don't and keep Armia. The point about the 1.4M remains as well. Cap space is a valuable commodity that's not thrown away to sign someone they don't need during their rebuilding years.
 
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ReHabs

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The team has 8M of cap space, they can get a player if they want to. They don't need better on ice performance from a UFA in the bottom 6 either, it's moot at this point of the teams competitive cycle. And your point about Ylonen makes no sense. If there's a spot for him if they sign a player, there's a spot for him if they don't and keep Armia. The point about the 1.4M remains as well. Cap space is a valuable commodity that's not thrown away to sign someone they don't need during their rebuilding years.
Check again, the team does not have any cap space, and is barely squeaking under if it does some paper transactions even. Using Price’s LTIR status before the season starts would be a very bad move given all the ELC bonuses we might be liable to pay in the following year (check the cap space thread for more details). So much for cap space is valuable huh.

There is no roster space to sign a middle6 player right now. We’re overladen with mediocre forwards, everyone knows it. So Hughes is allowing mediocre players to get in the way of building and improving the roster. Bad move imo, but you folks can support his every move I’m sure you do.

Anyway the point is moot as the buyout period came and went and Hughes sat on his hands. Hopefully he has a move or two up his sleeves.
 

Andrei79

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Check again, the team does not have any cap space, and is barely squeaking under if it does some paper transactions even. Using Price’s LTIR status before the season starts would be a very bad move given all the ELC bonuses we might be liable to pay in the following year (check the cap space thread for more details). So much for cap space is valuable huh.

There is no roster space to sign a middle6 player right now. We’re overladen with mediocre forwards, everyone knows it. So Hughes is allowing mediocre players to get in the way of building and improving the roster. Bad move imo, but you folks can support his every move I’m sure you do.

Anyway the point is moot as the buyout period came and went and Hughes sat on his hands. Hopefully he has a move or two up his sleeves.

Don't argue in bad faith. It's been clearly pointed out the cap space is necessary when the team is trying to be competitive, i.e. years three and four. You're simultaneous making an argument that buying out Armia will give a spot to Ylonen in addition to a UFA, which makes no sense at all. The team doesn't need a 2.3M player for where it is in its competitive cycle, especially not at the cost of 1.4M of dead cap space.
 

Scriptor

Registered User
Jan 1, 2014
7,850
4,816
Don’t be scared, I’m well aware those two have little trade value. I’ve commented many times they should be bought out — and I’ve taken into account the cap penalty. A pair of buyouts would’ve been an aggressive and necessary move — in particular for floater Joel Armia who was at or below replacement level last season.

It’s penny wise pound foolish to deny rookies roster spots and not sign roster upgrades and instead hoard cap space and ‘assets’ (late round picks? Who cares) whilst retaining irrelevant players like Hofmann and Armia.

But we were talking about Anderson:


Not productive enough to retain at all costs.

I like Savard and agree with your take, I would prefer to retain him. But in the greater scheme of rebuilding and escaping the gravitational pull of “Loser Team” we need to shed dead weight — not one of the aforementioned players will feature in our future.

So it is plainly obvious that Hughes did have pieces he could move but chose to sit on his hands and talk about culture instead (while the team lost but missed on a top3 draft pick).

Hughes hasn’t been able yet to do the hard part (assemble a winning roster) or even enough of the necessary part (acquire quality players ). He’s instead held onto irrelevant players who will certainly and without any doubt have zero impact on any future competitive window.

I love the Matheson trade and Dach has upside. If they’re the best players Hughes can acquire, we are in big big trouble.


Buries and buyouts exist for a reason. Other teams manoeuvre aggressively. Hughes has been cautious so far.

It is real life — good teams do what it takes to maximize their chances of success at all times. Bad teams think they can wait it out while the sand washes away under their feet… and fans eat it up because they think time is not a valuable resource, on video games you can sim through seasons. In real life it doesn’t work that way.

What happened to Anderson talk? Forgot about him?


Well… Hughes shouldn’t be so greedy. That’s my original comment, and I’m sticking to it.

Anderson is a 0.5ppg player if we’re being generous. Has significant injury history and isn’t as physical as his reputation implies. He is not capable of east-west play and is extremely hot and cold in terms of production. He had 6pts in 22gp in our big playoff run. His reputation across the league is not particularly growing since that point either.

Is he worth keeping just to keep? Is he worth selling just to sell? I don’t have an answer but my position on it is that Hughes need to make up his mind. Some here say that Hughes has taken a direction but I don’t see it, I see him hedging and sitting on his hands. Rushing Slafkovsky and starting the season with four rookie dmen on one hand and refusing to sell or get rid of Hoffman and Anderson, extending Jake Allen to an unmovable contract on the other.
I really don't get the sense of the narrative you are trying to spin about Hughes being like Bergevin to date in his mandate.

The scarecrow about repeating what was said about being patient with management when Bergervin was around and it leading to the same results ten years later is, IMO, at best, far-fetched.

Hughes' mandate as GM of this team has been no longer than a year and a half to date but, IMHO, he has displayed cohonnes that marc Bergevin lacked early on in his tenure.

Hughes also inherited, from Bergevin, a lot more dead wood than Bergevin had from the past regime. Bergevin also had to Get out of jail cards with buyouts that wouldn't count against the Cap.

First off, Hughes wasn't afraid to take a chance on St-Louis as head coach in a bid to stray from the D-first, ultra-conservative coaching philosophy that had plagued the Habs forever.

Sure, he had good will as a GM to pull off such a move and adding a hall-of-fame, francophone voice behind the bench bought him the benefit of the doubt, assuredly, at least long enough to see if the coach would be any good.

The results with Caufield and Suzuki to end the season were already convincing fans that things were changing.

Hughes used the first half of his tenure to analyse the strengths and weaknesses of his team, then aggressively moved on swapping his better assets that weren't part of the future for interesting returns, a mix of draft picks and prospects perhaps closer to the NHL than late first round or 2nd round draft picks.

Par for the course expected from any new GM, but I'd argue he showed good poise in trading the assets he did for good returns; Toffoli for a 1st round pick and Heinemann, Chiarot for a first round pick and Smilanic, Kulak for a 2nd round pick, Lehkonen for Justin Barron.

During his first offseason, he didn't shy away from trading a solid D and fan favourite in Romanov to acquire the 13th OA pick required to make the Dach deal happen, adding a 3rd rounder in that deal.

Sure, it was a project and a measured gamble, but, also a means of acquiring a c with both size, skill and remaining upside.

Bergevin had just found it very, very difficult to trade for a Center in today's NHL...

Bergevin also made a decent move in accommodating Petry when he traded him to PIT for Matheson. Some already were arguing he was repatriating an old client and that this was a bad sign for things to come.

Despite Matheson panning out quite well for the Habs, those same people are arguing the same thing about Newhook.

Hughes may have disappointed some fans by selecting Slafkovsky at 1st OA in a weak draft year, or Reinbacher over Michkov at 5th OA in this draft year, an allegedly strong draft year for forwards.

But, one thing Hughes hasn't done yet is try to immediately put the Habs back into middling territory where his team would hover around the playoff spot, making it, or not making it, depending on the year.

He added youngsters that can grow with the current young core, not over-the-hill or near over-the-hill veterans on their last legs just to make the playoffs.

I believe he does have a plan and is sticking to it with expectations that we might not make the playoffs again, this year, but that the team is looking to see improvement and progression from the troops.

I believe that the plan is aimed at the long game of being in contention for years to come, not some quick fix to make the playoffs and see what happens then.

Building a strong D, as it seems to be shaping up, is part of that blueprint. Building a solid C-line, as he seems to hope to be doing with Suzuki, Dach and Beck for the top-9 also appears to be part of the blueprint. A top-scoring winger, inherited from the past regime in Caufield seems to be fitting nicely into that vision, along, maybe, with the newly acquired speedster with an NHL shot, Newhook.

Drafting the talented mammoth, Slafkovsky seems to aim at surrounding those smaller, talented scorers with size and skill at the same time. Of course, the young Slafkovsky still needs to grow into his role with the Habs.

There's still some strength to add up front, but it's been barely a year and a half and that can still come through future drafts, trades (using the rising strength and depth of talent on D, perhaps) and the UFA front over the coming few years.

Also, there's stil some dead wood to toss overboard and all of it should be gone within two years, outside of the Gallagher contract and assuming that Proce doesn't have a miracle recovery that sees him return to the ice.

I don' see an inactive GM and I see one more methodological than Bergevin who, despite some good moves, was unable to make the follow-up move to maximize the previous move.

Right or wrong, I have the impression that Hughes is cut throat enough to pull off subsequent moves to bolster previous ones.

I also think that Hughes is persuasive enough to attract certain players Bergevin would not have been able to attract.

The recent signing of Caufield and new hook, along with the signing of each, last year, also convince me that Hughes has a grasp of what it takes to build a team within Cap constraints.

Things, IMO, look better than during the past regime.

For starters, Hughes is banking on youth and the draft, something Bergevin claimed he wanted to do, but never did.

That's a big enough difference for me to give Hughes bait more leeway before biting his head off.
 

FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
20,359
13,090
Toronto, Ontario
No matter what............to start the season at the very least one of Armia or Hoff has to be traded or bought out...........we need the spot moreso than the cap space....

The kids are coming.....

Would you guys add a 2nd to get rid of either Hoff or Armia? I would...

No I would certainly not.

Surely you realize that the Canadiens can open up a spot by simply scratching either of those guys and sending them to the press box, right?

Why are you pretending that "no matter what" they have to be traded or bought out? That's absurd.
 

ReHabs

Registered User
Jan 18, 2022
6,712
10,372
Don't argue in bad faith. It's been clearly pointed out the cap space is necessary when the team is trying to be competitive, i.e. years three and four. You're simultaneous making an argument that buying out Armia will give a spot to Ylonen in addition to a UFA, which makes no sense at all. The team doesn't need a 2.3M player for where it is in its competitive cycle, especially not at the cost of 1.4M of dead cap space.
It’s been pointed out that cap space is necessary when trying to be competitive? Wow, no shit? You sure?

Good players and assets to trade are necessary as well. The Habs have too few of both. It’s bad faith to wiggle around a simple proposition.

Competitive cycle lol
 

ReHabs

Registered User
Jan 18, 2022
6,712
10,372
Surely you realize that the Canadiens can open up a spot by simply scratching either of those guys and sending them to the press box, right?
Is there a difference between “scratching of” and sending a player to the press box? Inquiring minds want to know
 
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