Proposal: Trade Bouchard...

[bucks_oil]

You should probably stick to this. Blaming him solely for people losing their jobs, is pretty daft.

This team needs to be about contract efficiencies rather than contract inefficiencies.

I don't necessarily hate the details of your proposal on the surface, but this isn't a better team post trade.

This essentially make Barrie a top 4 dman again, something we couldn't accept last year this time with Desharnais behind him instead of Bouchard, that's a disaster in waiting.

This also makes our third line Centre Derek Ryan with Foegele and Gagner as his wingers. Woof woof. Now just imagine what that fourth line looks like (Hello Brad Malone).

I don't know how you can say upgrading in goal to a guy voted 6, 3, and 4th in Vezina over the last three years, with a perfectly reasonable contract for this year and next isn't an IMMEDIATE on ice upgrade.

After that we swap out an immature one-dimensional offensive defenseman for a veteran one, who at least makes efforts to back check after his poor decisions... have you ever seen Bouchard dive to make a defensive play after a poor o-zone pinch? At least Barrie had the willingness to try and atone for his judgement errors. This part of the trade is as net neutral on-ice as it gets. And go check the stats, Barrie's on-ice 5v5 GA is a full goal better than Bouchard this year and Bouchard has NEVER been on ice for fewer 5v5 GA/60 than Barrie... not ever.

So for all that we used to pile on Barrie for his defensive play, he was better by any objective measure that I can see (and playing on the same team, in generally a higher utilization) than Bouchard.

It breaks down like this:

Barrie = Bouchard... I'm sorry but it's true at least in the here and now.

Saros >>>>>>>>>> McLeod + Holloway

The 1st compensates for the significant retention.

As for Desharnais... this must be (can only be) addressed at the deadline. There isn't a lot of cap space to go around but reversing Holland's error in judgement in goal is a top priority. Neither of Bouchard or Barrie are top-4 defenders, so what's the difference?

 

[BlackDogg]

Trade Darryl Katz

 

[bone]

I don't know how you can say upgrading in goal to a guy voted 6, 3, and 4th in Vezina over the last three years, with a perfectly reasonable contract for this year and next isn't an IMMEDIATE on ice upgrade.

After that we swap out an immature one-dimensional offensive defenseman for a veteran one, who at least makes efforts to back check after his poor decisions... have you ever seen Bouchard dive to make a defensive play after a poor o-zone pinch? At least Barrie had the willingness to try and atone for his judgement errors. This part of the trade is as net neutral on-ice as it gets. And go check the stats, Barrie's on-ice 5v5 GA is a full goal better than Bouchard this year and Bouchard has NEVER been on ice for fewer 5v5 GA/60 than Barrie... not ever.

So for all that we used to pile on Barrie for his defensive play, he was better by any objective measure that I can see (and playing on the same team, in generally a higher utilization) than Bouchard.

It breaks down like this:

Barrie = Bouchard... I'm sorry but it's true at least in the here and now.

Saros >>>>>>>>>> McLeod + Holloway

The 1st compensates for the significant retention.

As for Desharnais... this must be (can only be) addressed at the deadline. There isn't a lot of cap space to go around but reversing Holland's error in judgement in goal is a top priority. Neither of Bouchard or Barrie are top-4 defenders, so what's the difference?

I guess yeah perhaps Barrie vs. Bouchard today isn't that much different, but if you think Saros alone with a downgraded third line and literally no one for the fourth line, plus further depleting of the prospect pool limiting trade capital for further additions at the deadline makes us a cup contender, maybe, but I'm not convinced Saros wouldn't turn into a pumpkin in our system and then we're done. Every goalie that has gone through Nashville for prolonged periods of time becomes top 10 in the league. Every goalie that comes through here becomes bottom ten.

 

[McDNicks17]

This team is rotten from the top of the roster on down.

If you try to pin their lack of success on one guy, you're going to be giving away a good player that'll basically be guaranteed to improve elsewhere.

 

[bucks_oil]

Exactly. Trading him is the last option. You try to rehab him first and foremost, and if part of that process is showing him you're not going to put up with his play by removing shifts or games, or minutes, then you do that.

My perspective: we don't have time for teaching. If we resign ourselves that he's not going to be a two-way player during our window, then we monetize him now before his value degrades. Other GMs will still believe he can be taught, that he's just been caught in a bad Edmonton situation and his talent justifies the risk (given their timeline, not ours).

This is one of those scenarios where you really can wait too long. Our window is now, if we waste time teaching him, it will become obvious to all he was part of the problem in Edmonton. I'm ready to make that assertion now (and this is on the basis that coaching staff have been pointing out the obvious 1 goal against per game errors that have been entirely his doing... god help us if they haven't)

 

[bucks_oil]

I guess yeah perhaps Barrie vs. Bouchard today isn't that much different, but if you think Saros alone with a downgraded third line and literally no one for the fourth line, plus further depleting of the prospect pool limiting trade capital for further additions at the deadline makes us a cup contender, maybe, but I'm not convinced Saros wouldn't turn into a pumpkin in our system and then we're done. Every goalie that has gone through Nashville for prolonged periods of time becomes top 10 in the league. Every goalie that comes through here becomes bottom ten.

So if you are allowed to assert that Saros is a product of Nashville environment, why am I not allowed to assert that Bouchard is a coach and goalie killer?

You know what happens when Saros gets here? No more F'n excuses, that's what.

I honestly believe our team have been "enabled" to play poor defense because they've believe they've had crappy goaltending all along... it's never been the fault of the players.

We bring in a top-5 goalie in the league, and nobody would dispute that of Saros (are you really disputing that?), and all of a sudden people have to look in the mirror.

Our team needs to learn the difference between managing corsi and limiting HDSC and ACTUALLY playing good team defense... which as Ekholm properly critiqued last night, sometimes means "no more offense is required tonight, skate through all 5 of us to get your goals".

It only takes 3 HDSC against to lose a game 3-0.... the goalie having a 0% save percent on HDSC that night doesn't mean you are absolved if they looked like the McLeod's "back check" on Tampa's go ahead goal on Saturday (Glendenning). The only person who had a chance on that play was McLeod and he was too lazy or clueless to care.

Make no mistake... putting him in my OP as trade bait had everything to do with me seeing that "effort" and firing him into the sun. The fact we need to include him for cap reasons was an added bonus. Gagner would be a better 3 C than him, he gives a shit and understands what "goal-side" means.

 

[bone]

So if you are allowed to assert that Saros is a product of Nashville environment, why am I not allowed to assert that Bouchard is a coach and goalie killer?

You know what happens when Saros gets here? No more F'n excuses, that's what.

I honestly believe our team have been "enabled" to play poor defense because they've believe they've had crappy goaltending all along... it's never been the fault of the players.

We bring in a top-5 goalie in the league, and nobody would dispute that of Saros (are you really disputing that?), and all of a sudden people have to look in the mirror.

Our team needs to learn the difference between managing corsi and limiting HDSC and ACTUALLY playing good team defense... which as Ekholm properly critiqued last night, sometimes means "no more offense is required tonight, skate through all 5 of us to get your goals".

It only takes 3 HDSC against to lose a game 3-0.... the goalie having a 0% save percent on HDSC that night doesn't mean you are absolved if they looked like the McLeod's "back check" on Tampa's go ahead goal on Saturday (Glendenning). The only person who had a chance on that play was McLeod and he was too lazy or clueless to care.

Make no mistake... putting him in my OP as trade bait had everything to do with me seeing that "effort" and firing him into the sun. The fact we need to include him for cap reasons was an added bonus. Gagner would be a better 3 C than him, he gives a shit and understands what "goal-side" means.

My issue with the comment is saying it's all Bouchard when he's very much a product of the Oilers environment/system and calling him a coach and goalie killer outright is an over simplification as to what's actually happening out there.

The rest of your post is fair, but I really don't think Saros is top 5 in the league, so that may very well be why the idea you posted looks bad to me. Naturally I could very much be wrong as I'm likely influenced by how he's been lit up by Edmonton several times in recent years. Usually when lighting him up, they've been able to get him moving to break him down. Teams do this at will vs. Edmonton.

 

[EnufAlready]

Fix him! Coach him! Hes got skills we need on the PP. That doesnt exclude him or any other player from playing a good 200 foot game. He's atrocious in his own end and what happens….he gets more ice time. Get a real coach in here and fix him and the others. That includes our stars that aren't stars in my eyes when they only bust their balls in one direction

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

My issue with the comment is saying it's all Bouchard when he's very much a product of the Oilers environment/system and calling him a coach and goalie killer outright is an over simplification as to what's actually happening out there.

The rest of your post is fair, but I really don't think Saros is top 5 in the league, so that may very well be why the idea you posted looks bad to me. Naturally I could very much be wrong as I'm likely influenced by how he's been lit up by Edmonton several times in recent years. Usually when lighting him up, they've been able to get him moving to break him down. Teams do this at will vs. Edmonton.

You know who else the Oilers used to light up every game? Carey Price. If we used Oilers viewings to judge other teams goalies then the All-Star games would be rife with backup goalies.

 

[bone]

You know who else the Oilers used to light up every game? Carey Price. If we used Oilers viewings to judge other teams goalies then the All-Star games would be rife with backup goalies.

Yeah, that could very much be part of the problem with how I view Saros. Also haven't seen him carry his team to a series win in the playoffs yet either though. Price won those at will but granted he hasn't had a lot of opportunities.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Trading him would be a mistake IMO
at the very worst he's a PP specialist playing on the bottom pair

I doubt he ever find the intensity to be a top pairing guy...he simply does not care about the defensive side of the puck, or the awareness that comes along with that

 

[TheNumber4]

I've hated Bouch's defensive game more than most and for longer than most and I still wouldn't trade him.

 

[bellagiobob]

My perspective: we don't have time for teaching. If we resign ourselves that he's not going to be a two-way player during our window, then we monetize him now before his value degrades. Other GMs will still believe he can be taught, that he's just been caught in a bad Edmonton situation and his talent justifies the risk (given their timeline, not ours).

This is one of those scenarios where you really can wait too long. Our window is now, if we waste time teaching him, it will become obvious to all he was part of the problem in Edmonton. I'm ready to make that assertion now (and this is on the basis that coaching staff have been pointing out the obvious 1 goal against per game errors that have been entirely his doing... god help us if they haven't)

I would at least try some icetime restrictions and different coaching methods. Say if that hasn't worked in about a month or so, then you start looking at trade options. That a player would continually be allowed to give this kind of no care effort speaks volumes to me about the leadership, or lack thereof, that we have in the room. A strong leadership group would A) Lead by example in our own zone and B) "Discuss" with the player that that kind of effort is unacceptable. Unfortunately our culture here is that defense is optional, and accountability is a foreign word.

 

[oXo Cube]

I'll save this thread the debate on whether Bouchard is good or not as I've already beaten it to death elsewhere, but even if you think he's a bad Barrie, still close to the last guy the team should trade.

Team controlled and highly productive right shot defensemen are unicorns. You can always cover his warts if you can't fix them.

 

[bucks_oil]

I would at least try some icetime restrictions and different coaching methods. Say if that hasn't worked in about a month or so, then you start looking at trade options. That a player would be continually be allowed to give this kind of no care effort speaks volumes to me about the leadership, or lack thereof, that we have in the room. A strong leadership group would A) Lead by example in our own zone and B) "Discuss" with the player that that kind of effort is unacceptable. Unfortunately our culture here is that defense is optional, and accountability is a foreign word.

I suspect there is a lot of truth in here… very frustrating.

I think the best coach we’ve had in years was Mike Smith,… Keith a close second.

 

[Stealth1616]

I really wonder the conversations with him behind the scenes. Sit him down and watch how lazy he is and just ask if he thinks it’s an acceptable way to play.

If he would just bare down a little more much of his play is preventable

 

[Messrules11]

He has a good slapshot and nothing more, easily replaceable. Throw in McLeod and get rid of the soft players.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

Sounds like a great idea to trade a 24 year old PPG puck moving/scoring D who's struggling along with the whole damn team. Do you think a GM is going to give back fair value for a player like that right now? No.

The fact some people want to package him with Campbell to get rid of both players is criminal.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

I'll save this thread the debate on whether Bouchard is good or not as I've already beaten it to death elsewhere, but even if you think he's a bad Barrie, still close to the last guy the team should trade.

Team controlled and highly productive right shot defensemen are unicorns. You can always cover his warts if you can't fix them.

You also can't get anything of value without trading anything of value. Those attributes you listed is the perfect recipe to afford the the type of player we need via trade.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

We have much bigger issues than the 24 year old PPG RHD with a booming shot and elite puck moving skills.

 

[Leonardlizard]

We have bigger issues but Bouchard is an issue every single game...sometimes positively sometimes negatively... Sometimes both. I'm curious about what he could bring to the table in terms of value and if that addition would be worth more to the Oilers and what they need than what Bouchard currently adds...

 

[oobga]

We have much bigger issues than the 24 year old PPG RHD with a booming shot and elite puck moving skills.

Seriously. Not even Holland is dumb enough to trade our only D that can consistent make passes longer than 30 ft. And leave us with RHD depth of Ceci, Desharnais and whatever other garbage we have left. Plus, imagine trusting Holland to even get close to fair value for a PPG 24 year old RHD.

Bouch has been flustered a lot defensively, but he is far from the only one. All our D have had a constant barrage of embarrassing moments this season, and almost none of them are able to come close to make up for it by doing something in the other end of the ice.

 

[OfCorsiDid]

- Drafts RHD with offensive upside.
- Has obvious defensive warts but can be improved.
- Team does f*** all to develop him defensively
- Gets exposed at the NHL level defensively.
- Fans run him out of town despite good fancy stats and offence.
- Fans then complain about how we have no offensive defensemen and can't develop RHD.

 

[phrenssoa]

I’m in favour of keeping Bouchard if his next contract doesn’t command too high a salary. Of course he has value as an offensive defenseman, but he is clearly being misused. The Oilers’ lack of depth hurts, but I would even trust Ceci over him 10 times out of 10 in the defensive zone right now. Every mistake he makes is completely catastrophic.

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

Should have kept Barrie.