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Toughness on the Maple Leafs

Right now we dont have the upgrades.

Fraser is a lock,if you say he is useless it because you hate toughness,he is plus 16.We can easily carry Mclaren as we have nobody better just waiting in the wings.Orr plays very little minutes and is hardly the reason we are losing now.Replace Orr with whom ? Ashton? To play 5 minutes a game?
 
I think we're already plenty tough enough as far as throwing first.

Where we still lack toughness though is with forwards not being able to grind teams down by playing along the goal and in their corners by cycling.

We have improved in this category but I expect CMac to be replaced by next season with a forward who plays more of a grind it out type game.

I also expect Grabo to not live out his contract as he plays best in a transition style game but we've got 4 other better options that play best in that type of game with JVR, Lupul, Kessel and Kadri.

After getting a center upgrade on Bozak before next season I expect Nonis to target the following players: Clowe and Horton and if they want to much then he does a short-term deal with Higgins or Morrow.
 
Pi said:
Exactly. Vancouver tried to change their identity after they lost to the Bruins and it hasn't served them well.

Trading Hodgson for Kassian was just one of the many mistakes the Canucks have made after they lost in the SCF.

We aren't getting tough because the Bruins are tough..that's just the way Nonis and especially Carlyle like to play.
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YEah but playing tough and rolling out the goonshow for 4 minutes and 7 shifts a night are two different things. The Bruins are tough with players who can play. No sideshows that Julien rolls out for a couple of shifts per night. Thats where the Burke/Nonis/Carlyle tough blueprint fails miserably. Running out to get guys like Kessel, Bozak, Lupul, Grabovksi, MacA, etc...is not the formula for team toughness. Nothing against those guys but none of them are tough. Not one. JVR is not tough but it doesn't seem like he is easily intimidated...same with Kadri. Thats all you need. Guys who won't run scared. Guys who crash the net and bang in the corners. Guys willing to battle for loose pucks and stand in front of the goalie. Thats the toughness required to win in the NHL. There are no prizes for most fights won. Not unless that prize comes in the form of a high draft pick..We can only hope.
 
Terrence said:
Where is the "Don't play them with Grabovski" option?
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The trouble with the Leafs they don't have any toughness that can play at the NHL level, it's been that way for over seven years, thus when the going gets tough the Leafs holler no-mas no-mass.
 
We need to keep both of these guys in the line-up until we have a couple players with skill that can also throw punches.
 
lol as for the fans who constantly say we dont need these guys, i laugh at you, and im sure every player in the leafs locker room whos last name is not orr and mclaren will laugh at you because those guys know if orr and mclaren go, then they will have to start fighting their own battles and have to worry about guys constantly running them. Look at all the other teams in the east, they all have those guys, and if you havnt noticed ottawa just traded for matt kassian. These guys are still valuable, so seriously stop crying about these guys, if you dont like it watch soccer or the khl.
 
JimLaheyprobert said:
lol as for the fans who constantly say we dont need these guys, i laugh at you, and im sure every player in the leafs locker room whos last name is not orr and mclaren will laugh at you because those guys know if orr and mclaren go, then they will have to start fighting their own battles and have to worry about guys constantly running them. Look at all the other teams in the east, they all have those guys, and if you havnt noticed ottawa just traded for matt kassian. These guys are still valuable, so seriously stop crying about these guys, if you dont like it watch soccer or the khl.
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I see.

Please tell me all about the tough guys on Montreal then.
If you hadn't noticed, Ottawa got their incredibly fantastic and unexpected record so far without this Matt Kassian kid.
 
I'm sure Stamkos is quivering in his skates at the thought of Fraser McLaren and his 4 minutes of ice time. :sarcasm:

Fighting is a minor part of toughness. Toughness is blocking shots, taking a hit, making hits, sticking your system, giving 100% every shift, making the other team work for every inch of ice. Despite all the PIMs, the Leafs aren't doing so well.
 
Carlyle won the cup in Anaheim, while running like 3-4 enforcers. I trust he knows how to use these guys.
 
slozo said:
I see.

Please tell me all about the tough guys on Montreal then.
If you hadn't noticed, Ottawa got their incredibly fantastic and unexpected record so far without this Matt Kassian kid.
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Why do you think he was brought in?
 
Duffman955 said:
Why do you think he was brought in?
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You tell me, chuckles.

He was brought in because . . . they went through their entire farm team so far to make a full line-up and figured he might be able to skate at an NHL level?

Or maybe, because they think Kassian will bring Ottawa to the next level (which must be close to something like division leader)?

You forgot to mention all those Montreal tough guys, btw! :shakehead
 
slozo said:
You tell me, chuckles.

He was brought in because . . . they went through their entire farm team so far to make a full line-up and figured he might be able to skate at an NHL level?

Or maybe, because they think Kassian will bring Ottawa to the next level (which must be close to something like division leader)?

You forgot to mention all those Montreal tough guys, btw! :shakehead
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Both Montreal and Ottawa have character, after being mugged by the Leaf enforcers they came back and beat them with skill and intellegence.
 
McLaren can use his fists and can play a little bit of hockey. Orr is all fists and very little hockey.
 
Duffman955 said:
Carlyle won the cup in Anaheim, while running like 3-4 enforcers. I trust he knows how to use these guys.
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He also had three future Hall of Famers in Niedermayer, Pronger and Selanne to balance them out. And Perry and Getzlaf.
 
I'm not convinced that when teams look at the Leafs and glance beyond Orr and McLaren, that they necessarily see a "tough" Toronto team or a team that is any more or less tough than they were in previous years.

However, I do think that the team themselves feel that they are now a bigger, tougher team to play against, and sometimes that confidence can do wonders to the guys in the room.
All of a sudden you see some guys playing like they are a few inches taller, a little bit bigger and stronger, etc. Now you have guys who don't normally throw their weight around, not afraid to do it. You have guys playing a bit more fearless, when it comes to pushing other players around, or blocking shots. They now feel a little more insulated, and when you have a coach that constantly hammers home the point of "we won't be bullied", then I think it does something for the team's confidence and their own self-perceived sense of toughness.
 
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Stephen said:
He also had three future Hall of Famers in Niedermayer, Pronger and Selanne to balance them out. And Perry and Getzlaf.
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He had toughness in Anaheim, and made it work largely because he had skill.

He has toughness in Toronto, and is trying to make it work - is the problem then not necessarily that the McLaren's and Orrs are taking up the roster spots, but because we don't have that level of skill?

I find it weird that people dump on Orr/McLaren after Leaf losses - the 2 are consistently doing what's asked of them; fight, play physical, get the puck in deep, forecheck, play physical and fight some more. They are doing exactly what they are in the lineup to do. Much like the enforcers that Randy had in Anaheim.

The issues lie with the rest of the roster, not with the Toronto Blue Bombers.
 
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slozo said:
I see.

Please tell me all about the tough guys on Montreal then.
If you hadn't noticed, Ottawa got their incredibly fantastic and unexpected record so far without this Matt Kassian kid.
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Well they went out and got brandon prust, and travis moen, they got ryan white. Not heavyweights but all guys who are willing to fight. Now im sure your going to respond and say oh well those guys can play the game, orr and mclaren cant, and your right those guys can play and contribute, but finding those guys are extremely hard. Its not every day guys that can contribute and also fight come around so when you got one you keep him. But if you dont have those type of guys in the eastern conference then you better have a heavyweight so those guys don't take cheap shots at your stars, (like the night prust went after Grabo, then orr and mclaren took over and let everyone on mtl know, if you mess with our stars be redy to fight us). I bet MTL really wanted a heavyweight that night. As for kassian, he had a goal the other night, but ottawa realized they needed a heavyweight so when they play toronto and boston they need a bit more beef so that neil and zack smith dont have to answer to orr and mclaren every time they play.
 
The 4th line plays 5-8 mins a night. I doubt any player can make a bigger impact than Orr/Mclaren in those 5 mins.

They do what is asked. Prevents guys from taking runs at our team. Hard on forecheck and intimidates teams.
 
Tak7 said:
He had toughness in Anaheim, and made it work largely because he had skill.

He has toughness in Toronto, and is trying to make it work - is the problem then not necessarily that the McLaren's and Orrs are taking up the roster spots, but because we don't have that level of skill?

I find it weird that people dump on Orr/McLaren after Leaf losses - the 2 are consistently doing what's asked of them; fight, play physical, get the puck in deep, forecheck, play physical and fight some more. They are doing exactly what they are in the lineup to do. Much like the enforcers that Randy had in Anaheim.

The issues lie with the rest of the roster, not with the Toronto Blue Bombers.
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To top t off,Orr and McLaren are both plus players.
 
Duffman955 said:
Carlyle won the cup in Anaheim, while running like 3-4 enforcers. I trust he knows how to use these guys.
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So guys like Pronger, Neidermayer, Perry, Getzlaf, Selanne, McDonald, Beauchemin, Phalsson, Marchand, Moen, Giguere were just passengers then? :facepalm:
 
cynicism said:
So guys like Pronger, Neidermayer, Perry, Getzlaf, Selanne, McDonald, Beauchemin, Phalsson, Marchand, Moen, Giguere were just passengers then? :facepalm:
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yup anaheim clearly won because of Brad May and George Parros.
 
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