GDT: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Buffalo Sabres Preseason Game #3

[notbias]

Scoring stats don’t necessarily mean that much for a defenseman and scoring pace means even less…

However, Timmins scored at a 46 point pace where the second leading scorer on the blueline was Mark Giordano in the mid 20s. It’s comparable offense to a forward like, say, Calle Jarnkrok. So there’s enough of a unique anomaly factor where you have to consider his offensive contribution might be something to tap into or give some more evaluation time.

Second, the cap management angle is a complete joke. You’re saving what. Less than $400K if you replaced him with a league min. defenseman somewhere down the road? This guy is the definition of a Moneypuck candidate and we’re nitpicking his shortcomings. If he didn’t come with flaws his potential production would put him in a much higher income bracket.

Gustafsson scored at a higher rate than Timmins, may as well have just kept him and not brought in Klingberg.

Could have iced a 23 man roster.

 

[thusk]

Timmins needs to produce to play. He doesn't defend well and doesn't PK. It's good he's playing well, as it makes the Leafs decisions tougher to waive or not, but it doesn't make up for what the team thought of him last season.
Also the debate between him and Liljegren doesn't make sense. Liljegren is on the PK, and main job is provide transitional play, be good defensively and some offense. Points isn't going to be the seperator.
Not that pre season letters matter, but thats now 2 pre season games Liljegren has wore the A, so he's going to be an important member for the team.
If Klingberg is out to start the year, Timmins is playing opening night so it doesn't matter.

Liljegren was nothing more than 5th penalty killer in D last season when everybody was playing... liljegren is better defensive side but still below average around NHL...

Hes great in transitionnal game, im totally agree and its is biggest strenght and why hes in NHL.

In the offensive zone... despite he having great passing ability and great skating, his offensive impact is almost none because his vision is not there... he dont see when a passing lane is open or his teammate is open or in good position for deflection or rebound...


I will make a comparaison i know some lilly fan will hate but i will compare with Cal foote situation.

2 year ago with tampa, was looking good in season and playoff on tampa 3rd pair... tampa traded mcdonaugh and some people was thinking cal Foote would step up in mcdonaugh shoes... that didn't go pretty well for him in higher role, finally being trade at trade dealine in Jeannot trade and Nashville just didn't qualify him with nj sign for free ...

A lot of leafs fan anticipate liljegren being able to take a step up exactly like people who tought the same thing with foote but honestly, i don't see anything in his game to justify it and his lack of hockey IQ really scares me. Perception can really change pretty quickly

 

[Hellcat]

Maybe, but a lot of the issues i see arent pressure related. Theyre just screw ups on basic plays. Its one thing under a heavy forecheck, its another missing a dump while both teams are changing

I kinda think Robertson has one speed hyperdrive and I'm not sure his skills translate at that speed. The good thing is he puts himself in situations where the puck comes to him and/or he generates chances. I think eventually the puck will go in for him but he has options to go to the farm and the fact he has not separated himself yet and he has options, I think he is going down to the farm.

 

[Stephen]

Gustafsson scored at a higher rate than Timmins, may as well have just kept him and not brought in Klingberg.

Could have iced a 23 man roster.

Yeah could have…

 

[notDatsyuk]

McCabe plays a risky game, he plays awesome for stretches then had a succession of brain farts. If he is playing a safe game he is very effective, when he tries to be a hero he puts himself in bad situations.



I was thinking about a fast line, Domi - Lafferty and mystery guy #3 , make them the forechecking possession cycle line, not many teams would have a line that fast.

Not sure how well he'll fit on the second line with Max and Willy, but it looks like he can at least keep up.

I was thinking Jarnkrok on their right, but he may be a causality of cap space.

 

[Sypher04]

I didn’t get to watch so I’m catching up. What was buffalos lineup like?

We definitely have something in Timmins. I’d like to see him get regular minutes so we can find out what exactly

 

[notDatsyuk]

I didn’t get to watch so I’m catching up. What was buffalos lineup like?

We definitely have something in Timmins. I’d like to see him get regular minutes so we can find out what exactly

There may have been five or six NHL calibre players on each team.

 

[Clark4Ever]

The kids looked solid last night.

 

[Warden of the North]

This isn't true at all.

And our defensive game has gotten way worse this year, not sure we should be inserting Timmins unless it is for Klingberg.

If people want to try to win games 6-5, that is fine, but I'd like to have a couple of defensive players in the lineup that can stop the other team from scoring.

Wait. Are you arguing we didn't have objectively terrible defensemen in the Dubas era who weren't good at defense or offense?

Like, how many games did Marty Marincin play for this team? Please don't quote stats. No amount of numbers will convince me he was good at anything other then firing the puck over the glass.

 

[Mess]

Timmins looks like he wants and is attempting to lock down one of the starting 6 spots of defense.

 

[Sypher04]

This isn't true at all.

And our defensive game has gotten way worse this year, not sure we should be inserting Timmins unless it is for Klingberg.

If people want to try to win games 6-5, that is fine, but I'd like to have a couple of defensive players in the lineup that can stop the other team from scoring.

I’m far from convinced the defensive ability of this d group this year is a notable step back from where we were last year after losing Muzzin and before the deadline.

Klingberg
McCabe

Vs

Holl
Sandin

Add to that Brodie and Rielly hopefully being healthier this year and ideally some load management of Gio.

 

[notbias]

I’m far from convinced the defensive ability of this d group this year is a notable step back from where we were last year after losing Muzzin and before the deadline.

Klingberg
McCabe

Vs

Holl
Sandin

Add to that Brodie and Rielly hopefully being healthier this year and ideally some load management of Gio.

Is McCabe good defensively?

For as bad as Sandin is, he is likely better than Klingberg.

Domi/Bertuzzi/Reaves are likely all worse than the people they replaced, so that doesn't help either.

Wait. Are you arguing we didn't have objectively terrible defensemen in the Dubas era who weren't good at defense or offense?

Like, how many games did Marty Marincin play for this team? Please don't quote stats. No amount of numbers will convince me he was good at anything other then firing the puck over the glass.

Marincin is not bad defensively.

Every Leafs D had a role, no one was bad at both things.

Maybe you thought Marincin was so bad offensively that his defensive side didn't make up for it, but it was not bad.

I don't know if we've ever had a D who was bad at both.

 

[Hellcat]

I didn’t get to watch so I’m catching up. What was buffalos lineup like?

We definitely have something in Timmins. I’d like to see him get regular minutes so we can find out what exactly

Watered down like most preseason rosters. I remember they had Power(s?) in the line up,, he's supposed to be the next coming of Hockey Christ...was not that impressive.

Marincin is not bad defensively.

Every Leafs D had a role, no one was bad at both things.

Maybe you thought Marincin was so bad offensively that his defensive side didn't make up for it, but it was not bad.

I don't know if we've ever had a D who was bad at both.

Aki Berg?

I’m far from convinced the defensive ability of this d group this year is a notable step back from where we were last year after losing Muzzin and before the deadline.

Klingberg
McCabe

Vs

Holl
Sandin

Add to that Brodie and Rielly hopefully being healthier this year and ideally some load management of Gio.

Yep piss poor defence, the big boys like McDavid are gonna feast on our buttery soft defence. Going to be a lot of 7-5, 6-4 games... it will be a race to the final buzzer.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Lilijgren's advanced stats looked admirable last time I checked. Does the most important things well.
Why are folks so down on him -- does he not pass the eye test?

There are a lot of hockey fans that equate putting up points to being good. Even if you are defensively weak and poor in transition.

 

[thusk]

This isn't true at all.

And our defensive game has gotten way worse this year, not sure we should be inserting Timmins unless it is for Klingberg.

If people want to try to win games 6-5, that is fine, but I'd like to have a couple of defensive players in the lineup that can stop the other team from scoring.

Is McCabe good defensively?

For as bad as Sandin is, he is likely better than Klingberg.

Domi/Bertuzzi/Reaves are likely all worse than the people they replaced, so that doesn't help either.



Marincin is not bad defensively.

Every Leafs D had a role, no one was bad at both things.

Maybe you thought Marincin was so bad offensively that his defensive side didn't make up for it, but it was not bad.

I don't know if we've ever had a D who was bad at both.

They are 2 way to defend... playing solid defensive game or making play in offensive zone, moving pucknquickly out of your defensive zone and keep puck away of your own territory... you need both in a team to have suxces

When you only having d to defend, you will get last season result and struggling to move out of your own zone... thats why it was probably the worst hockey leafs played in playoff in the last 3 playoff despite the fact they finally won a serie.


McCabe was great defensivly all time he was with the leafs last year except vs florida... because mccabe and brodie was unable to move the puck out of leafs zone. So they just defend again and again and again to finally looking bad at the end vs rielly who made offensive play, help leafs to move out of his own zone or making play at the blue line to keep to help his team to keep control of the puck...


sandin problem its he just too slow and not enough strong.. so against physical line , will be destroy come playoff time and against fast line will be the same thing... Klindberg is faster and stronger and was on dallas big 3 who helped Dallas to reach stanley cup in 2020. Do he have defensive issue, yes for fure but if it would not be the case, never leafs would get him at this price, he would cost between 7 to 9M/ year...

 

[Warden of the North]

Is McCabe good defensively?

For as bad as Sandin is, he is likely better than Klingberg.

Domi/Bertuzzi/Reaves are likely all worse than the people they replaced, so that doesn't help either.



Marincin is not bad defensively.

Every Leafs D had a role, no one was bad at both things.

Maybe you thought Marincin was so bad offensively that his defensive side didn't make up for it, but it was not bad.

I don't know if we've ever had a D who was bad at both.

Are you Jonas Siegel?

 

[Fogelhund]

The best defense is puck possession. If you have the puck, there isn't much chance of getting scored against. Second is transitioning the puck... our guys had some issues with that last year.

Chances are high, that the newer players should allow us to have the puck more, and transition better. Chances are also that as individuals, they won't be as good defensively. How that nets out once the games are actually played... stay tuned....

 

[notbias]

Are you Jonas Siegel?

No. A solid contribution to the discussion.

They are 2 way to defend... playing solid defensive game or making play in offensive zone, moving pucknquickly out of your defensive zone and keep puck away of your own territory... you need both in a team to have suxces

When you only having d to defend, you will get last season result and struggling to move out of your own zone... thats why it was probably the worst hockey leafs played in playoff in the last 3 playoff despite the fact they finally won a serie.


McCabe was great defensivly all time he was with the leafs last year except vs florida... because mccabe and brodie was unable to move the puck out of leafs zone. So they just defend again and again and again to finally looking bad at the end vs rielly who made offensive play, help leafs to move out of his own zone or making play at the blue line to keep to help his team to keep control of the puck...


sandin problem its he just too slow and not enough strong.. so against physical line , will be destroy come playoff time and against fast line will be the same thing... Klindberg is faster and stronger and was on dallas big 3 who helped Dallas to reach stanley cup in 2020. Do he have defensive issue, yes for fure but if it would not be the case, never leafs would get him at this price, he would cost between 7 to 9M/ year...

I don't disagree, I like most of the moves we've made, but it'll also be nice to be able to play solid defensively too.

Klingberg hasn't been good in a while, but the potential to turn it around is there, so I am okay with it. In this thread, most of my issue is people wanting to drop Gio and play Timmins, not sure it is the best move.

Appreciate the well thought out reply and really don't have too much to add as it is mostly spot on.

My concern is when the other team gets possession and we struggle to break it up.

 

[Apex Predator]

Are you Jonas Siegel?

I’ve had a theory that Jonas and James are on this board under certain user names.

 

[therealkoho]

He may not want to retire.

neither did Spetz

Think he means how Spezzas agent told teams he would retire if claimed off waivers last season

BINGO, EXACTLY

it really wasn't that hard was it, sheesh!

 

[ACC1224]

neither did Spetz




BINGO, EXACTLY

it really wasn't that hard was it, sheesh!

Sounds like he was prepared to.

 

[therealkoho]

Problem is I don't love any of them with Rielly. He needs a Schenn / Hainsey type.

Maybe a deadline addition.

not really in love with the Brodie Reilly either

Liljegren and Reilly had some good moments together last year, I trust Liljegren doing the stay at home role just like he does on the kill

 

[Maple Leaf]

 

[therealkoho]

Sounds like he was prepared to.

and that doesn't mean that Spezza wanted to, he just wanted to be at home with his family just like Gio,

no one would claim him if his agent made that possibility clear as the claiming team could waste a selection

 

[kb]

He's also a mess without the puck and doesn't offer much else. Probably why he only played 25 games and didn't step foot on the ice for over a month until the last couple games of the season and didn't play a single playoff game

That happens when you only play sparingly due to injuries. Development is delayed. He was regarded as an excellent 2 way defender coming into the draft.

Maybe this is a crazy thought but perhaps him getting more game action maybe, just maybe will get him back to that?

Timmins needs to produce to play. He doesn't defend well and doesn't PK. It's good he's playing well, as it makes the Leafs decisions tougher to waive or not, but it doesn't make up for what the team thought of him last season.
Also the debate between him and Liljegren doesn't make sense. Liljegren is on the PK, and main job is provide transitional play, be good defensively and some offense. Points isn't going to be the seperator.
Not that pre season letters matter, but thats now 2 pre season games Liljegren has wore the A, so he's going to be an important member for the team.
If Klingberg is out to start the year, Timmins is playing opening night so it doesn't matter.

Are we seriously judging him like he's a finished product and can't improve? Especially after missing all that time?