Proposal: Toronto - Las Vegas

[Michel Beauchamp]

which is isnt. leafs have approx 7 mil free space if Lupul and Horton are already LTIRed (which Daly confirmed is allowed in the summer)

No they don't if LTIR is used in the off-season.

That's what you dont seem to understand.

I'll repeat numbers from my last post in this thread.

The Leafs are presently $2.479M over the cap.

Horton cap hit is $5.3M

Lupul cap hit is $5.25M

If Brown was to be signed at $2.8M, the Leafs would be $5.279M over the cap and would need to use Horton's LTIR to get right at the cap on the first day of the season, but the $21K extra could not be used during the season.

Once the season starts, say they want to send Smith down ($650K cap hit) and bring up their most ready dman prospect with a cap hit superior to Smith.

They would be over the cap.

They would then use Lupul's LTIR to be cap compliant and could use the portion of that LTIR not necessary to be cap compliant as wiggle room for the rest of the season.

If, however, Brown signs a contract with a cap hit of $2.822M, they would need to use both LTIR before the start of the season and they would be left with no wiggle room at all for the season (unless, obviously, if a player goes on LTIR during the season).

 

[Halla]

No they don't if LTIR is used in the off-season.

That's what you dont seem to understand.

I'll repeat numbers from my last post in this thread.

The Leafs are presently $2.479M over the cap.

Horton cap hit is $5.3M

Lupul cap hit is $5.25M

If Brown was to be signed at $2.8M, the Leafs would be $5.279M over the cap and would need to use Horton's LTIR to get right at the cap on the first day of the season, but the $21K extra could not be used during the season.

Once the season starts, say they want to send Smith down ($650K cap hit) and bring up their most ready dman prospect with a cap hit superior to Smith.

They would be over the cap.

They would then use Lupul's LTIR to be cap compliant and could use the portion of that LTIR not necessary to be cap compliant as wiggle room for the rest of the season.

If, however, Brown signs a contract with a cap hit of $2.822M, they would need to use both LTIR before the start of the season and they would be left with no wiggle room at all for the season (unless, obviously, if a player goes on LTIR during the season).

I dont understand why you think Fehr will be anywhere near this team. 1M in savings there. he gets the michalek/laich treatment and there isnt a shred of doubt about that. smith is also going down

so you think they end up with not enough room to even call up a player making more than holl, I think they will have a few million in space.

lets see how it plays out

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I dont understand why you think Fehr will be anywhere near this team. 1M in savings there. he gets the michalek/laich treatment and there isnt a shred of doubt about that. smith is also going down

so you think they end up with not enough room to even call up a player making more than holl, I think they will have a few million in space.

lets see how it plays out

Find me where I wrote that and only that.

I in fact wrote about Fehr being buried.

What I wrote was that if they use both LTIR before the start of the season and only want to send Smith through waivers to balance the number of forwards and dmen, then only Holl could be recalled.

In the same LTIR scenario, they could send down one of Fehr/Moore/Martin and recall the most advanced of their d prospect.

I wonder why it's so hard to understand...

 

[Halla]

Find me where I wrote that and only that.

I in fact wrote about Fehr being buried.

What I wrote was that if they use both LTIR before the start of the season and only want to send Smith through waivers to balance the number of forwards and dmen, then only Holl could be recalled.

In the same LTIR scenario, they could send down one of Fehr/Moore/Martin and recall the most advanced of their d prospect.

I wonder why it's so hard to understand...

"If they sent Ben Smith through waivers to make room for one extra dman, the only one that could be called up, because of that no wiggle room, would be Justin Holl."

you said fehr/martin/moore.
Martin and Moore arent getting sent down and its foolish to even suggest that. Fehr is down 100%. Smith is also down. they easily have enough money to call up anyone they want. is that hard to understand? maybe worry about your own team then?

leafs will not have any cap difficulties as much as you wish it to be so.
21k cap space? yeah right bud. move along

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

"If they sent Ben Smith through waivers to make room for one extra dman, the only one that could be called up, because of that no wiggle room, would be Justin Holl."

you said fehr/martin/moore.
Martin and Moore arent getting sent down and its foolish to even suggest that. Fehr is down 100%. Smith is also down. they easily have enough money to call up anyone they want. is that hard to understand? maybe worry about your own team then?

leafs will not have any cap difficulties as much as you wish it to be so.
21k cap space? yeah right bud. move along

And again with the

The 21K? I did not say it was their cap space in that scenario where it came from the Horton LTIR used before the season.

On the contrary, I said it could not be used because of its provenance.

But that was the best case scenario because the Lupul LTIR would only be used on/after the day the season starts.

In that case the excedent would be available during the season.

"maybe worry about your own team" ?

I was under the mistaken impression that we were discussing one particular team in a thread on the main board.

Is that thread only open to Leafs fans ?

There should be a clear indication/warning at the start of the thread or along the way after some Leafs fans try to monopolize it to avoid Boeotians like me threading on its holy ground.

Or, even simpler, it should be on the Leafs board.

Yep, I must be one of these intellectuals that the partisans of a certain elected buffoon detest. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

The farm system is strong enough that a 3rd can be sacrificed if needed

But it's not needed. We have the space.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

No they don't if LTIR is used in the off-season.

That's what you dont seem to understand.

I'll repeat numbers from my last post in this thread.

The Leafs are presently $2.479M over the cap.

Horton cap hit is $5.3M

Lupul cap hit is $5.25M

If Brown was to be signed at $2.8M, the Leafs would be $5.279M over the cap and would need to use Horton's LTIR to get right at the cap on the first day of the season, but the $21K extra could not be used during the season.

Once the season starts, say they want to send Smith down ($650K cap hit) and bring up their most ready dman prospect with a cap hit superior to Smith.

They would be over the cap.

They would then use Lupul's LTIR to be cap compliant and could use the portion of that LTIR not necessary to be cap compliant as wiggle room for the rest of the season.

If, however, Brown signs a contract with a cap hit of $2.822M, they would need to use both LTIR before the start of the season and they would be left with no wiggle room at all for the season (unless, obviously, if a player goes on LTIR during the season).

Just to make sure I understand this right. If both Horton and Lupul are on the LTIR to start the season, we start with no wiggle room, however if one of them goes on just after the season starts, then we get wiggle room for that?

I'm a little surprised that we have so much detail on this scenario given everyone still seems a little perplexed that LTIR could even be used at all before the season starts. Unless of course there is a difference between something like "off season LTIR" and "training camp LTIR" coming into play here that I'm not familiar with.

 

[TML Dynasty]

Agree with above....very surprised this is not a simple discussion. I must be missing something pretty big.

We are 2.479M over cap right now
Lupul and Horton on LTIR right now free's up over 10 mil
Leaving more than enough to sign Brown.

Why does it matter when they get placed on LTIR?

 

[Jumptheshark]

Leafs send Fehr to Vegas for Stoner@2M

Fehr has a better chance of making Vegas than TO, and Stoner has a better chance of making TO than Vegas. money is a wash, both guys are pending UFA

low risk move for both teams and if it pans out, TO gets a #6-7 dman thats allows Dermott/Nielsen to not be rushed, and Vegas gets a 4th liner that could potentially captain the team.

If it doesn't work out, both guys go to the AHL, and the teams are in the exact same place they started (1M dead cap for leafs, 2.2 for vegas)

not sure why Vagas is keeping money unless leafs add a pick. Vegas is in no desperate need for a center.

Like you said Stoner in a 6/7 guy and i would not be shocked to see 3 trades by vegas prior to the start of the regular season on their back end. they may have use for him in the end

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Agree with above....very surprised this is not a simple discussion. I must be missing something pretty big.

We are 2.479M over cap right now
Lupul and Horton on LTIR right now free's up over 10 mil
Leaving more than enough to sign Brown.

Why does it matter when they get placed on LTIR?

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

 

[TML Dynasty]

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

Thanks for the link. Says the basic formula can be used both during season and the off season:

Amount team can exceed the cap = Cap hit of LTIR player - Amount of cap space available

LTIR guys are over 10 mil - we have negative 2.~ cap space = we should be able to use that approx 8 mil?

I get you're pretty frustrated so no worries on keep trying to explain but ya Im still not sure why we don't have this cap room.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

This doesn't really say anything about how using LTIR during training camp / off season affects how much room you have when the season starts.

 

[rent free]

Would fehr fit on the Rangers? They lost Lindberg in the ed and fehr could probably play center.

 

[Tall Morty]

Why does it matter when they get placed on LTIR?

Oh good, I thought it was just me.

 

[pezcore]

if I understand things correctly, this is why it makes a difference why its important when they place the players on LTIR.

Im just going to round every number to make things easier.

Leafs cap hit at the moment is 77M. They need to be under the salary cap before the season starts.

If they place Lupul or Horton during Training camp, they will only be able to spend the amount exceeding the salary cap. so in this case 2M

if they place their players once the season has started, it would the the salary of the players minus the cap space they have. So lets say they go down to 75M, they would be allow to exceed approx. 10M.

So if Brown signs before the season starts at lets say 3M, Leafs salary would be 80M. If they cant trade players to shed salary, they would need to place Lupul on LTIR during training camp. So the formula would be

Team cap hit (80M) - League salary cap (75) = 5M. They would be allow to spend 5M over cap, hence, they have no wiggle room since their team salary would be already at 80M.

So now the season starts, place Horton on LTIR, and the formula would be

player's salary (5M) - cap space (0 in this scenario) so basically, their new cap would be 85M. so Leafs would have 5M salary cap space at the start of the season.

If they manage to get under cap without using both their LTIR they could possibly have 10M cap space.

Its not the simple math of adding the salaries of Lupul & Horton minus whatever amount they exceed the cap. Timing is important

 

[tony d]

Fehr would be a good veteran add for Vegas, Stoner would be a good depth d man for Toronto. Value wise the deal makes sense to me.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Leafs send Fehr to Vegas for Stoner@2M

Fehr has a better chance of making Vegas than TO, and Stoner has a better chance of making TO than Vegas. money is a wash, both guys are pending UFA

low risk move for both teams and if it pans out, TO gets a #6-7 dman thats allows Dermott/Nielsen to not be rushed, and Vegas gets a 4th liner that could potentially captain the team.

If it doesn't work out, both guys go to the AHL, and the teams are in the exact same place they started (1M dead cap for leafs, 2.2 for vegas)

Innovative but a better deal for the Leafs as I doubt Fehr is anything more than a call up for a few games to replace an injured player. Salary advantage to the Leafs as well. We always get the better of these deals though so no surprise there ...... LOL.

 

[TML Dynasty]

if I understand things correctly, this is why it makes a difference why its important when they place the players on LTIR.

Im just going to round every number to make things easier.

Leafs cap hit at the moment is 77M. They need to be under the salary cap before the season starts.

If they place Lupul or Horton during Training camp, they will only be able to spend the amount exceeding the salary cap. so in this case 2M

if they place their players once the season has started, it would the the salary of the players minus the cap space they have. So lets say they go down to 75M, they would be allow to exceed approx. 10M.

So if Brown signs before the season starts at lets say 3M, Leafs salary would be 80M. If they cant trade players to shed salary, they would need to place Lupul on LTIR during training camp. So the formula would be

Team cap hit (80M) - League salary cap (75) = 5M. They would be allow to spend 5M over cap, hence, they have no wiggle room since their team salary would be already at 80M.

So now the season starts, place Horton on LTIR, and the formula would be

player's salary (5M) - cap space (0 in this scenario) so basically, their new cap would be 85M. so Leafs would have 5M salary cap space at the start of the season.

If they manage to get under cap without using both their LTIR they could possibly have 10M cap space.

Its not the simple math of adding the salaries of Lupul & Horton minus whatever amount they exceed the cap. Timing is important

Really appreciate you taking the time with this. I still cant wrap my head around it though. Ive reread a bunch of times......I really must be missing something super simple. But do appreciate the response!!

 

[pezcore]

Really appreciate you taking the time with this. I still cant wrap my head around it though. Ive reread a bunch of times......I really must be missing something super simple. But do appreciate the response!!

no problem.....it took me a few reads to understand as well but let me try this again...lets forget Brown and again, all numbers will be rounded down to make things easier.

NHL salary cap is set at 75M, Leafs are at 77M....2M over it. On day 1 on the regular season, they need to be at the cap or under.

Lets say there's no option whatsoever but to put Lupul on LTIR to get under the cap before day 1. When you do that during training camps, the math is the following:

Team's salary (77M) - NHL Salary cap (75M) = Amount of excess cap allowed (2M).
Now even though Lupul's salary is 5M, they would only get an extra of 2M to spend over the cap...which means that they have no cap space whatsoever. That 3M difference on Lupul's salary is lost.

If they manage to get down their salary to 75M before the season starts and then place Lupul and Horton on LTIR after day 1 of the season, the math is different and it goes like this...

Players salary (5M each) - cap space available (which is zero if they are at 75M) = amount of excess cap allowed. In this case, Leafs would be allowed to go 10M over the cap (85M) and they can spend that money however they want.

Right now, the best options for the Leafs would be to either A) Bring down their salary to 75M or lower or B) bring up their salary to 80M and then put Lupul on LTIR so they get to use the full amount of his salary (5M).

So if Leafs sign Brown before the season starts, it looks like option B) will be the way to go. Using the real numbers this time , Brown's max AAV would have to be 2.770M because over that, it means that Lupul's LTIR wouldnt suffice. They would maybe have to use Horton's as well and remember, if players are put on LTIR before the season starts then that extra money is lost. so Leafs would start the season with 0 space available.

So the math is:

Before season starts:

Team Salary - NHL cap = amount of excess cap allowed

After the season starts:

Player's salary - cap space available = amount excess cap allowed

Hope this makes it clearer.

 

[TML Dynasty]

no problem.....it took me a few reads to understand as well but let me try this again...lets forget Brown and again, all numbers will be rounded down to make things easier.

NHL salary cap is set at 75M, Leafs are at 77M....2M over it. On day 1 on the regular season, they need to be at the cap or under.

Lets say there's no option whatsoever but to put Lupul on LTIR to get under the cap before day 1. When you do that during training camps, the math is the following:

Team's salary (77M) - NHL Salary cap (75M) = Amount of excess cap allowed (2M).
Now even though Lupul's salary is 5M, they would only get an extra of 2M to spend over the cap...which means that they have no cap space whatsoever. That 3M difference on Lupul's salary is lost.

If they manage to get down their salary to 75M before the season starts and then place Lupul and Horton on LTIR after day 1 of the season, the math is different and it goes like this...

Players salary (5M each) - cap space available (which is zero if they are at 75M) = amount of excess cap allowed. In this case, Leafs would be allowed to go 10M over the cap (85M) and they can spend that money however they want.

Right now, the best options for the Leafs would be to either A) Bring down their salary to 75M or lower or B) bring up their salary to 80M and then put Lupul on LTIR so they get to use the full amount of his salary (5M).

So if Leafs sign Brown before the season starts, it looks like option B) will be the way to go. Using the real numbers this time , Brown's max AAV would have to be 2.770M because over that, it means that Lupul's LTIR wouldnt suffice. They would maybe have to use Horton's as well and remember, if players are put on LTIR before the season starts then that extra money is lost. so Leafs would start the season with 0 space available.

So the math is:

Before season starts:

Team Salary - NHL cap = amount of excess cap allowed

After the season starts:

Player's salary - cap space available = amount excess cap allowed

Hope this makes it clearer.

Awesome brother, thanks!!