Proposal: Toronto & Arizona (Chychrun)

[Junohockeyfan]

Ladd wasn't on LTIR? And Mrazek is very injury prone so if the expectation is injuries end with the contract ending on LTIR then mrazek could fit the bill

He misses so many games

Coyotes got 2 x 2nds and 3rd for taking Ladd. That is roughly the cost for Mrazek

 

[WingsMJN2965]

There’s only two years left. Like Andrew Ladd’s deal. Which only cost a 2nd to move.

Ladd cost two 2nds. One in 2021 and one in 2022. They also have a condition on a 3rd round pick if he plays no pro games this upcoming season under this contract.

Plus, unless COVID scheduling changed things, and I can’t imagine how it would on a previously signed contract, $3M of the $4M he was owed this year was already paid via signing bonus.

 

[rt]

Ladd cost two 2nds. One in 2021 and one in 2022. They also have a condition on a 3rd round pick if he plays no pro games this upcoming season under this contract.

Plus, unless COVID scheduling changed things, and I can’t imagine how it would on a previously signed contract, $3M of the $4M he was owed this year was already paid via signing bonus.

I forgot about the 2021 2nd on Ladd. And it’s true that Stralman cost a 2nd for one year. And while Gostisbehere cost a 2nd for two years, he’s a better player. I’ll concede Mrazek has negative value in excess of a single 2nd.

Coyotes got 2 x 2nds and 3rd for taking Ladd. That is roughly the cost for Mrazek

My mistake. I agree with you.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I forgot about the 2021 2nd on Ladd. And it’s true that Stralman cost a 2nd for one year. And while Gostisbehere cost a 2nd for two years, he’s a better player. I’ll concede Mrazek has negative value in excess of a single 2nd.

Ya. I don’t think it’d cost a 1st, but Toronto kinda doesn’t have much to work with here.

They’ve given away most of their future picks outside the 1st and need to keep guys like Knies and Robertson on their ELCs to mitigate the disaster they created by paying their stars Cup money before they actually won a Cup.

 

[rt]

Ladd was a ltir injury prospect. Mrazek is healthy. Mrazek should cost a fair bit to dump.

Comments from Arizona management at the time was that Ladd was working hard, they’d done their research, and they fully expected him to play for the team and contribute as a leader in the room, a valued veteran presence with championship experience.

 

[rt]

Ya. I don’t think it’d cost a 1st, but Toronto kinda doesn’t have much to work with here.

They’ve given away most of their future picks outside the 1st and need to keep guys like Knies and Robertson on their ELCs to mitigate the disaster they created by paying their stars Cup money before they actually won a Cup.

Can we assume Sandin, Knies and a 1st is fair value for Chychrun? It certainly meets Armstrong’s price, but is his price too high?

If we say that the package is roughly equal, but AZ needs to accept some cap to offset the aav and make the deal work, is Holl enough?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Can we assume Sandin, Knies and a 1st is fair value for Chychrun? It certainly meets Armstrong’s price, but is his price too high?

If we say that the package is roughly equal, but AZ needs to accept some cap to offset the aav and make the deal work, is Holl enough?

I wouldn’t. Sandin has always been more offensive minded and yet he barely paced 25 points this year while getting 2nd PP unit time and having a higher shooting percentage than all but one of the top 10 goal scoring D. (Makar)

Knies is a good, but not great prospect, and Toronto’s pick, I believe, is locked in at 24 now.

None of that really wows you for a top pairing defenseman on arguably the best contract in the league.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Comments from Arizona management at the time was that Ladd was working hard, they’d done their research, and they fully expected him to play for the team and contribute as a leader in the room, a valued veteran presence with championship experience.

True - the 3rd round pick they got was conditional on Ladd playing game(s) so I expect they wanted him healthy.

 

[rt]

True - the 3rd round pick they got was conditional on Ladd playing game(s) so I expect they wanted him healthy.

Still, you guys are right. I wasn’t adding enough value for Mrazek. And Toronto doesn’t really have the pieces to include him. I just wonder if the deal works without him

Chychrun for Holl, Sandin, Knies, and the 22 1st.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Still, you guys are right. I wasn’t adding enough value for Mrazek. And Toronto doesn’t really have the pieces to include him. I just wonder if the deal works without him

Chychrun for Holl, Sandin, Knies, and the 22 1st.

Closer with Mrazek removed but at some point the Coyotes need to make a push to compete and a trade like this pushes that timeline back. I don’t think they would entertain trading Chychrin - especially on that sweet contract.

It would take an overpayment and what you offered isn’t that.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Closer with Mrazek removed but at some point the Coyotes need to make a push to compete and a trade like this pushes that timeline back. I don’t think they would entertain trading Chychrin - especially on that sweet contract.

It would take an overpayment and what you offered isn’t that.

The Coyotes have been entertaining and advertising Chychrun all year.

… I just don’t see this package moving the needle.

 

[kerrabria]

[EDIT x2]

BAFO:

To Tor:
Chychrun

To Ari:
Holl
Sandin
Knies
‘22 1st


[EDIT]

Updated Proposal:

To Toronto:
Chychrun

To Arizona
Mrazek
Holl
Sandin
Knies
Tor ‘22 1st
Tor ‘24 2nd


————————

Initial Proposal:

To Toronto:
-Chychrun (-50%, 2.3aav x3)
-Capobianco (Restricted FA)
-Fischer (Restricted FA)

To Arizona:
-Mrazek (3.8aav x2)
-Holl (2.00aav x1yr)
-Sandin (Restricted FA)
-Knies (Unsigned)
-2022 TOR 1st Rounder

What was it, like four months ago that you were insisting that a package for Chychrun should start with a 1st+Knight?

 

[Pepper]

It’s beyond absurd to pretend there’s a chance that Knies remains THREE more years at university. And I suspect you know that, and are simply arguing in bad faith. It’s ridiculous.

Sounds like you have no actual criticism of Sandin outside of what you read in the “bio” summary information on hockeydb. So that checks out.

If you think Fischer and Capobianco have value worth considering in the overall equation of this proposal, it further highlights your lack of understanding on this.


That’s absurd. Dumping Mrazek would cost them their ‘24 2nd.

Hey, it's a factor. Knies signed to an ELC is worth more, period. How much - up to debate.

I've seen Sandin play enough, both NHL and international games. He's "ok" NHL player with nothing special, if he was bigger and/or rhd he would be worth more as there is plenty of average smallish lhd d-men. I don't need to go check his bio but it seems you had to do it after I pointed out the facts to you.

Fischer and Capobianco have some value but most importantly they don't have negative value unlike Mzarek and Holl.

You sound like you're simply trying to stir the pot, attacking those who don't agree with you.

EDIT the fact that you had to do edit your proposal what 3 times after you got blasted here should tell you how close your original proposal was value-wise.

 

[Heldig]

Can we assume Sandin, Knies and a 1st is fair value for Chychrun? It certainly meets Armstrong’s price, but is his price too high?

If we say that the package is roughly equal, but AZ needs to accept some cap to offset the aav and make the deal work, is Holl enough?

I am underwhelmed by the return so it probably means it is closer to fair than a fan's lofty expectations.

Really like Knies and the local story is cool. That Sandin was the 8th D for the Leafs in the playoffs is concerning (did he even dress for a game?). Adding another 1st round pick is good.

Adding 2 cap dumps should probably cost the Leafs more.

 

[BondraTime]

Seems incredibly bad for Arizona

 

[kerrabria]

I would rather have Knies than Knight. I would rather have Knies than Knight+2nd.

What? Knight alone is worth more than Knies and a 1st.
Is it literally because Knies was born in Phoenix?

 

[rt]

What? Knight alone is worth more than Knies and a 1st.

I MIGHT take Knies over Knight and a 1st. It’s close.

I am underwhelmed by the return so it probably means it is closer to fair than a fan's lofty expectations.

Really like Knies and the local story is cool. That Sandin was the 8th D for the Leafs in the playoffs is concerning (did he even dress for a game?). Adding another 1st round pick is good.

Adding 2 cap dumps should probably cost the Leafs more.

My BAFO removed the retention on Chychrun and Mrazek.

Just Chychrun for Holl, Sandin, Knies, 1st.

 

[BondraTime]

Knies over Knight and a 1st. Holy

Knies is a few tiers below Knight as a prospect

 

[north49er]

Chychrun would definitely get them to a game seven....

 

[rt]

Knies over Knight and a 1st. Holy

Knies is a few tiers below Knight as a prospect

I’d certainly prefer Knies to Knight at say 45th overall.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I MIGHT take Knies over Knight and a 1st. It’s close.

Wat?

 

[BondraTime]

I’d certainly prefer Knies to Knight at say 45th overall.

Which is still completely bonkers, but opinions are never going to be the same everywhere so more power to you.

 

[WF19]

*Looks at “User Status” and…”yep, that checks out”.

We are talking the Leafs here. They want him they would have to pay a premium. They have 9 players signed for a cap hit of 63 million and that's with only Mrazek. Bunting has one year left and he will get a significant raise in the following year but as it is for next year they have what 18ish million to sign 10 players and a goalie? Any team that is willing to help out the leafs is gonna get a haul from them.

 

[wetcoast]

The more I read this thread the more I believe that it would be in the Yotes interest to retain Chychrun 100% to oversee the development of their future Dmen they will draft and already have in the system.

He seems to be simply worth more to the Yotes than the return being offered, although the offer presented by a fellow Canuck fan with Rathbone, Hogs and our first this year might interest them but Rathbone can't play defense at the NHL level and that's a problem..

I also think that the whole situation in Arizona is going to get very messy and worse before it gets better.

They have so many FA's and the roster turnover for 22 is going to be tricky as to many players not wanting to play in a gloried junior arena and guys that don't care aren't' exactly the type one builds a team around is it?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

We are talking the Leafs here. They want him they would have to pay a premium. They have 9 players signed for a cap hit of 63 million and that's with only Mrazek. Bunting has one year left and he will get a significant raise in the following year but as it is for next year they have what 18ish million to sign 10 players and a goalie? Any team that is willing to help out the leafs is gonna get a haul from them.

RIP to the team that pays Bunting.

And unfortunately, we always bank in nobody helping, but there’s often an idiot like Stan Bowman, who will give you an asset for Tyler Johnson.