Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Roman Polak (1 year, $2.25M)

[The Winter Soldier]

Well, considering Polak didn't play 32 minutes a night, i'm not sure how him being traded opened up 16+ minutes for both marincin and Carrick as you keep saying.

Now answer me this question if you will....in Babcock's entire red Wings career, how many times did he roll 3 green defenseman out? That isn't how he coaches/develops players.

Now, maybe you can answer this...if the Leafs don't sign Polak, as you so clearly state they shouldn't have....who exactly do we play if Carrick/Zaitsev/Marincin/Corrado don't play well?? Or should we just assume that all rookies are sure things and a depth defenseman is just a waste?

My statements have not changed. No coach in their right mind plays 3 rookie defensemen 16-20 minutes a night to start the season if they are trying to win, they would be given limited minutes in a bottom pair situation (6ish minutes) unless they are Ekblad type players...which clearly, these 2 are not . As i have stated MANY times, the reason Carrick/Marincin got the playing time they did was because it was late in the season and the coaches/management were evaluating players.

And don't you think trading our #1D and captain had a little more to do with playing time than the Polak trade did?

You are wrong, unless a D man was traded, sent down or injured. Marinchin and Carrick would not have been called up for an extended look with meaningful mins. There is this thing called a 24 man roster. Teams cannot go over it.

Polak took up a roster spot prior to be being traded did he not? When he and another vet were traded it opened up opportunities for Carrick and Marinchin to play and develop at the NHL level. Chances neither would have gotten had those 2 players been on the roster. I don't know why you keep missing the point or maybe you are just deliberately missing it.

So again, Leafs lost 2 vets last year after the trade deadline. Credit Carrick and Marinchin for playing well enough to change some minds on their futures with the Leafs. I don't know how you can look at the Polak signing as not a move that reduces opportunities for young players to learn and develop at the NHL, given how Polak's departure had a positive net effect on these 2 young Defenceman.

 

[New Leaf]

and the whole "he wont get a 2nd, he will get a 4th at best" needs to stop as well.

leafs fans put up with this almost every year. Kaberle, Franson, Polak etc
Polak was paired with a spare part forward for two 2nds but you dont think he will get a 2nd again? He had a good year aside from the cup finals where pretty much all the shars were terrible.

try not to make yourself look as foolish as those guaranteeing guys like polak and franson were gonna get a 3rd at best.

Well first, I'm a Leafs fan. Second, I just can't see him getting this ridiculous value again. His awful play was not well known because Toronto stank out loud this year, but the Sharks made the finals and showed exactly why Polak is bad. I understand people saying that it's not a big deal, but throwing away better, younger players like Corrado is a mistake, no matter how minor.

 

[MikeK]

Another perfect contract for TOR to move at the deadline.

 

[Liferleafer]

You are wrong, unless a D man was traded, sent down or injured. Marinchin and Carrick would not have been called up for an extended look with meaningful mins. There is this thing called a 24 man roster. Teams cannot go over it.

Polak took up a roster spot prior to be being traded did he not? When he and another vet were traded it opened up opportunities for Carrick and Marinchin to play and develop at the NHL level. Chances neither would have gotten had those 2 players been on the roster. I don't know why you keep missing the point or maybe you are just deliberately missing it.

So again, Leafs lost 2 vets last year after the trade deadline. Credit Carrick and Marinchin for playing well enough to change some minds on their futures with the Leafs. I don't know how you can look at the Polak signing as not a move that reduces opportunities for young players to learn and develop at the NHL, given how Polak's departure had a positive net effect on these 2 young Defenceman.

You didn't answer my question, who plays if the rookies can't handle the NHL minutes? And i never said Pokak being traded didn't open up minutes for rookies, i did however state countless time that that happened LATE IN THE SEASON when the Leafs were in the basement. I will state again for the umpteenth time that Babcock will not start the season with 3 rookies on defense....never has...never will.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You didn't answer my question, who plays if the rookies can't handle the NHL minutes? And i never said Pokak being traded didn't open up minutes for rookies, i did however state countless time that that happened LATE IN THE SEASON when the Leafs were in the basement. I will state again for the umpteenth time that Babcock will not start the season with 3 rookies on defense....never has...never will.

Where are the 3 NHL rookies is Babcock playing?

Zaitsev is a 24 year old player with 7 KHL pro seasons under his belt.
Marinchin 24, has played 150 NHL games
Gardiner 26, has played 325 NHL games
Rielly 22, has played 236 NHL games
Hunwick 31, 407 NHL games

Leafs have been in the basement for years now. It wasn't just late in the season last year, they are a team that is rebuilding. Late in the season Polak and Phaneuf were traded. This proved to be a positive because it provided opportunities for younger players to develop that would not have been available if they were on the roster. Out of those players, 2 stood out. Marinchin earned a spot on the roster, Carrick is now considered an 'A' prospect according the GM.

So again, the Polak signing you agree with, I do not. And I have illustrated why I believe so, point by point on your positions of 1 rookie not 3 rookies, the negligible effects of experience arguments, 16+ mins as opposed to 6 mins, ect.. Or whatever you have brought up accurate or not.

 

[Liferleafer]

Where are the 3 NHL rookies is Babcock playing?

Zaitsev is a 24 year old player with 7 KHL pro seasons under his belt.
Marinchin 24, has played 150 NHL games
Gardiner 26, has played 325 NHL games
Rielly 22, has played 236 NHL games
Hunwick 31, 407 NHL games

Leafs have been in the basement for years now. It wasn't just late in the season last year, they are a team that is rebuilding. Late in the season Polak and Phaneuf were traded. This proved to be a positive because it provided opportunities for younger players to develop that would not have been available if they were on the roster. Out of those players, 2 stood out. Marinchin earned a spot on the roster, Carrick is now considered an 'A' prospect according the GM.

So again, the Polak signing you agree with, I do not. And I have illustrated why I believe so, point by point on your positions of 1 rookie not 3 rookies, the negligible effects of experience arguments, 16+ mins as opposed to 6 mins, ect.. Or whatever you have brought up accurate or not.

A: NHL rookie=player who has never played in the NHL....see one 24 year old Panarin who just won NHL rookie of the year. As such....Zaitsev is a rookie.

B: You only listed 5 defensemen above....i am pretty sure we will at least be dressing 6, and possibly 7.

C: If we are to dress 6 or 7 defensemen (as listed above) then in your no Polak scenario...we would be dressing at least 2 (Zaitsev/Carrick?)...and if we dress 7...then another rookie=3?

D: I will ask this question for a 3rd time....if the rookies don't pan out, or we have injuries....who plays? More rookies?? Bottom line, signing Polak is a good depth move.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

A: NHL rookie=player who has never played in the NHL....see one 24 year old Panarin who just won NHL rookie of the year. As such....Zaitsev is a rookie.

B: You only listed 5 defensemen above....i am pretty sure we will at least be dressing 6, and possibly 7.

C: If we are to dress 6 or 7 defensemen (as listed above) then in your no Polak scenario...we would be dressing at least 2 (Zaitsev/Carrick?)...and if we dress 7...then another rookie=3?

D: I will ask this question for a 3rd time....if the rookies don't pan out, or we have injuries....who plays? More rookies?? Bottom line, signing Polak is a good depth move.

Zaitsev is a 24 year old with 7 pro seasons under his belt. He is only a NHL rookie in name, but is he inexperienced?

He would technically be the only rookie in the line up. Atleast recognize this. Who are the 3 rookies you are referring to on the roster? Corrado is not a rookie either.

Leafs have finished 27th in GA the last 2 years also with vets including Polak on D the last 2 years. Has it panned out under these circumstances? This is a false narrative you are pushing. Where how do you not know it would not work out for the better? It did for Carrick and Marinchin.

 

[Liferleafer]

Zaitsev is a 24 year old with 7 pro seasons under his belt. He is only a NHL rookie in name, but is he inexperienced?

He would technically be the only rookie in the line up. Atleast recognize this. Who are the 3 rookies you are referring to on the roster? Corrado is not a rookie either.

Leafs have finished 27th in GA the last 2 years also with vets including Polak on D the last 2 years. Has it panned out under these circumstances? This is a false narrative you are pushing. Where how do you not know it would not work out for the better? It did for Carrick and Marinchin.

False narritive? Like blaming only vet Dmen for a bad GA? Perhaps you didn't witness Mr "i can't stop a beachball" Bernier last season? Perhaps we had a poor GA because we were icing essentially an AHL team for most of the season?

As far as Zaitsev...which is a longer list....KHL players that excell in the NHL...or ones that flop? I have over 15 years "experience" in my beer league, doesn't mean Jack squat in the NHL.

It baffles me how you feel signing a bottom pair/7 D for 1 year is worth all of this discussion. Are you even a Leaf fan?

 

[wgknestrick]

This could be the signing that pushes SJS over the edge. He was brutal at moving the puck.

 

[varano]

This could be the signing that pushes SJS over the edge. He was brutal at moving the puck.

Hes not that guy. He's more of a stay at home physical d man

 

[The Winter Soldier]

False narritive? Like blaming only vet Dmen for a bad GA? Perhaps you didn't witness Mr "i can't stop a beachball" Bernier last season? Perhaps we had a poor GA because we were icing essentially an AHL team for most of the season?

As far as Zaitsev...which is a longer list....KHL players that excell in the NHL...or ones that flop? I have over 15 years "experience" in my beer league, doesn't mean Jack squat in the NHL.

It baffles me how you feel signing a bottom pair/7 D for 1 year is worth all of this discussion. Are you even a Leaf fan?

Yep. A 24 year old player that has 7 pro KHL years of experience. Is not a normal NHL rookie. The KHL is arguably the 2nd best league in the world. You brought up Babcock is not starting 3 rookie D men. I addressed this by asking you where are they on the current roster?

I am sorry but your arguments are bad. You pointed out young players playing 6 mins on the bottom pairing, but if you knew Babcock and his usage of Carrick and Marinchin last year of 16:30+ TOI you would know Babcock is not afraid to play young players in many situations.

The 3 rookie narrative was also proven to be false. The experience component proven to have negligible positive effects.

All this points to my position of signing Polak for 50 games, for probably a 3rd rd pick is not worth it when you weigh the pros and cons of where the Leafs are in their rebuild, and how it positively impacted younger players last year when positions were opened up for them. Let's not forget Rielly and Gardiner also, they both took steps fwd last year with added responsibility when the trades happened did they not?

 

[Liferleafer]

Yep. A 24 year old player that has 7 pro KHL years of experience. Is not a normal NHL rookie. The KHL is arguably the 2nd best league in the world. You brought up Babcock is not starting 3 rookie D men. I addressed this by asking you where are they on the current roster?

I am sorry but your arguments are bad. You pointed out young players playing 6 mins on the bottom pairing, but if you knew Babcock and his usage of Carrick and Marinchin last year of 16:30+ TOI you would know Babcock is not afraid to play young players in many situations.

The 3 rookie narrative was also proven to be false. The experience component proven to have negligible positive effects.

All this points to my position of signing Polak for 50 games, for probably a 3rd rd pick is not worth it when you weigh the pros and cons of where the Leafs are in their rebuild, and how it positively impacted younger players last year when positions were opened up for them. Let's not forget Rielly and Gardiner also, they both took steps fwd last year with added responsibility when the trades happened did they not?

Lo ****ing l.

Ok...so your ideal defense to start the season is:

Rielly/Marincin
Gardiner/Zaitsev
Hunwick/Carrick/Corrado???

As if that isn't projectile vomit worthy enough....i will ASK AGAIN...in the event of an injury...who plays? In the event of Carrick/Corrado not panning out...who plays?

You can call me wrong all you want, but you are completely out to lunch if you think that D group is NHL worthy. Signing Polak is insurance. Did you homestly think they weren't going to sign more D? They were talking to Russell and Wisnewski as well.....they will not be going with your idea of a starting D group....get over it.

 

[seanlinden]

The whole "6 minutes a night" narrative is really out of touch with reality.

The Leafs top defenceman last year (in terms of TOI/G), was Morgan Rielly at 23:13, followed by Hunwick at 22:33 and Phaneuf at 22:01. Go with the ridiculous assumption that the Leafs top 4 next year (whomever it is) averages 23 minutes a night, and all games end in regulation, and your 3rd pair is still playing 14 minutes a night.

That being said, here's the reality of the Polak signing.

He was brought in not just for a veteran presence, or trade bait, but to bring an element to our defensive group (size, strength, physical play) that the other 7 sorely lacked as a whole.

Does he make it harder for a guy like Connor Carrick, Nikita Zaitsev, and/or Frankie Corrado to be on the 18-man lineup sheet? absolutely, but the reality is, trotting out a collection of 6 of Rielly, Gardiner, Hunwick, Marincin, Carrick, Zaitsev and/or Corrado was not going to lead to an environment where we can expect Carrick/Zaitsev to develop well, or many of the young forwards we were going to have in the lineup.

This deal is not about the Leafs cashing out again at the deadline. This deal is about the fact that the Leafs needed a big-bodied physical defenceman who can play in a top 4, and while Polak is a little miscast in that role, he & Gardiner didn't look all that bad in it, and Polak came with a contract that will have absolutely no adverse effects on their ability to get a guy who is well cast in that role.

As for blocking development, Zaitsev can start in the AHL, or Carrick/Zaitsev can battle for that final spot until somebody gets hurt. Based on last year, the organization doesn't seem to care if a guy like Corrado spends ample time in the pressbox.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lo ****ing l.

Ok...so your ideal defense to start the season is:

Rielly/Marincin
Gardiner/Zaitsev
Hunwick/Carrick/Corrado???

As if that isn't projectile vomit worthy enough....i will ASK AGAIN...in the event of an injury...who plays? In the event of Carrick/Corrado not panning out...who plays?

You can call me wrong all you want, but you are completely out to lunch if you think that D group is NHL worthy. Signing Polak is insurance. Did you homestly think they weren't going to sign more D? They were talking to Russell and Wisnewski as well.....they will not be going with your idea of a starting D group....get over it.

How do you know it will not pan out? How do you know how the final line up will look like? Babcock has done well with the young D on the team thus far. And frankly 27th in GA the past 2 years, I am not sure what you are fearing? Rielly and Gardiner seemed to have weathered that experience well. So again, what are you fearing? You think Polak is the answer to what? To take a spot from a younger, and probably piece the Leafs have moving fwd?

 

[Coaches Coroner]

People freaking out over a 1yr deal less than 2.5 especially considering he could be a great trade chip at deadline. I forgot though, injuries don't happen and no playoff team will want to take a risk. The rosters are set and Polak has ruined the Leafs as a franchise.

Yeah he was terrible in the Final, but played well the previous three rounds. Some teams actually look at the whole picture rather than a sample size.

At this point it's mostly one guy arguing that, that guy always seems to post positive things about players and prospects...unless it's the Leafs, then for some reason there take on Leaf dealings comes in a highly critical light, regardless of what the move is(ie. a pretty benign move such as this one is apparently putting the organization back a few steps into the Burke era model). It always get's them a lot of posters responding, so part of me has come to think it's more of an attention play than anything. It's worked, this thread is 2-4 pages shorter without the continuous arguing.

 

[Liferleafer]

The whole "6 minutes a night" narrative is really out of touch with reality.

The Leafs top defenceman last year (in terms of TOI/G), was Morgan Rielly at 23:13, followed by Hunwick at 22:33 and Phaneuf at 22:01. Go with the ridiculous assumption that the Leafs top 4 next year (whomever it is) averages 23 minutes a night, and all games end in regulation, and your 3rd pair is still playing 14 minutes a night.

That being said, here's the reality of the Polak signing.

He was brought in not just for a veteran presence, or trade bait, but to bring an element to our defensive group (size, strength, physical play) that the other 7 sorely lacked as a whole.

Does he make it harder for a guy like Connor Carrick, Nikita Zaitsev, and/or Frankie Corrado to be on the 18-man lineup sheet? absolutely, but the reality is, trotting out a collection of 6 of Rielly, Gardiner, Hunwick, Marincin, Carrick, Zaitsev and/or Corrado was not going to lead to an environment where we can expect Carrick/Zaitsev to develop well, or many of the young forwards we were going to have in the lineup.

This deal is not about the Leafs cashing out again at the deadline. This deal is about the fact that the Leafs needed a big-bodied physical defenceman who can play in a top 4, and while Polak is a little miscast in that role, he & Gardiner didn't look all that bad in it, and Polak came with a contract that will have absolutely no adverse effects on their ability to get a guy who is well cast in that role.

As for blocking development, Zaitsev can start in the AHL, or Carrick/Zaitsev can battle for that final spot until somebody gets hurt. Based on last year, the organization doesn't seem to care if a guy like Corrado spends ample time in the pressbox.

Ok, you guys need to let this go. My whole point with that comment was that coaches don't normally throw rookie Dmen out for 16+ minutes a night. They break them in slowly with limited minutes.....i didn't say anything specifically about certain players or coaches.....Jesus Christ.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Ok, you guys need to let this go. My whole point with that comment was that coaches don't normally throw rookie Dmen out for 16+ minutes a night. They break them in slowly with limited minutes.....i didn't say anything specifically about certain players or coaches.....Jesus Christ.

But Babcock played all the players called up. Nylander, Hyman, Soshnikov, Carrick, and Marinchin. When one makes a comment like playing 6 mins a game. Expect there to be a correction along the way.

Based on this, do you believe Babcock would actually play call ups 6 mins a game? Obcourse not. And this is why it pertained to the Polak discussion where You said it would.

 

[Liferleafer]

How do you know it will not pan out? How do you know how the final line up will look like? Babcock has done well with the young D on the team thus far. And frankly 27th in GA the past 2 years, I am not sure what you are fearing? Rielly and Gardiner seemed to have weathered that experience well. So again, what are you fearing? You think Polak is the answer to what? To take a spot from a younger, and probably piece the Leafs have moving fwd?

How do you know it will? That's the point....Polak is insurance against Injury/Poor play. And when did Rielly/Gardiner play here as rookies with no vet presence?

As far as what i am fearing....an Oiler type "throw the kids to the wolves and lets see what happens" plan, which is exactly what you are promoting. As to what i think Polak is the answer to...i have answered that a bunch of times...he is insurance. He is a vet presence with experience. He is a physical stay at home Dman.

 

[Liferleafer]

But Babcock played all the players called up. Nylander, Hyman, Soshnikov, Carrick, and Marinchin. When one makes a comment like playing 6 mins a game. Expect there to be a correction along the way.

Based on this, do you believe Babcock would actually play call ups 6 mins a game? Obcourse not. And this is why it pertained to the Polak discussion where You said it would.

Grass is green....care to argue about the exact shade of green for a while?

As to the bolded....JVR/Lupul/Komarov all suffered injuries...callups happen. I am still waiting to hear you say what happens when one or 2 of our Dmen get injured and Polak isn't here....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

How do you know it will? That's the point....Polak is insurance against Injury/Poor play. And when did Rielly/Gardiner play here as rookies with no vet presence?

As far as what i am fearing....an Oiler type "throw the kids to the wolves and lets see what happens" plan, which is exactly what you are promoting. As to what i think Polak is the answer to...i have answered that a bunch of times...he is insurance. He is a vet presence with experience. He is a physical stay at home Dman.

You don't know, none of us know. All we know is it is hard to be worse than 27th in GA for a 3rd straight year. Thus, in either situation vets or no vets. Your fears are unwarranted. But we do know all the young D developed fine after the trade of Polak. So the position of needing him as some sort of security blanket is very much overplayed here. Plus, his 2.25M puts the Leafs cap right to the top and over with no movement.

Grass is green....care to argue about the exact shade of green for a while?

As to the bolded....JVR/Lupul/Komarov all suffered injuries...callups happen. I am still waiting to hear you say what happens when one or 2 of our Dmen get injured and Polak isn't here....

Where did any of those players called up were used for 6 mins a game? This was your claim.

Further, who do the Leafs use. They have a farm system. One that is very good. You call up players as they did last season. To very good success. That's what you do. This is not revolutionary. Again what are you afraid of? This is the 27th GA team in the NHL 2 years running. Can't get much worse than that.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

You don't know, none of us know. All we know is it is hard to be worse than 27th in GA for a 3rd straight year. Thus, in either situation vets or no vets. Your fears are unwarranted. But we do know all the young D developed fine after the trade of Polak. So the position of needing him as some sort of security blanket is very much overplayed here. Plus, his 2.25M puts the Leafs cap right to the top and over with no movement.

Your fears that signing Polak to a 1 year deal is going to significantly hinder prospect development sounds equally unwarranted at absolute best, and that's the basis of this ongoing argument you have going on.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Your fears that signing Polak to a 1 year deal is going to significantly hinder prospect development sounds equally unwarranted at absolute best, and that's the basis of this ongoing argument you have going on.

You can ignore my comments if you like. The main board is open for discussion on NHL players. I am responding to a poster that is replying to me. It is a 2 way street here. If you want to join in, you are welcome. Choice is yours post on the topic not me.

 

[seanlinden]

You don't know, none of us know. All we know is it is hard to be worse than 27th in GA for a 3rd straight year. Thus, in either situation vets or no vets. Your fears are unwarranted. But we do know all the young D developed fine after the trade of Polak. So the position of needing him as some sort of security blanket is very much overplayed here. Plus, his 2.25M puts the Leafs cap right to the top and over with no movement.



Where did any of those players called up were used for 6 mins a game? This was your claim.

Further, who do the Leafs use. They have a farm system. One that is very good. You call up players as they did last season. To very good success. That's what you do. This is not revolutionary. Again what are you afraid of? This is the 27th GA team in the NHL 2 years running. Can't get much worse than that.

It's not just about goals against, it's about the roles that they play, and the people they play alongside of. Throwing Nikita Zaitsev or Connor Carrick out there to play tough matchups with Jake Gardiner is not setting either of them up for success. Letting them play on a 3rd pair with a Martin Marincin, or Matt Hunwick, to the tune of 15 minutes a night, is.

The simple reality is, Polak or not, we just don't have room to develop all of these puckmovers with Gardiner & Rielly firmly at the top of our defence. Zaitsev, Carrick, Corrado, will have to compete for what is essentially lineup spot until somebody gets hurt.

At the end of the day, it's not a bad thing, it means that instead of relying on all of the young players to pan out, you're only going to take the best.

 

[Liferleafer]

You don't know, none of us know. All we know is it is hard to be worse than 27th in GA for a 3rd straight year. Thus, in either situation vets or no vets. Your fears are unwarranted. But we do know all the young D developed fine after the trade of Polak. So the position of needing him as some sort of security blanket is very much overplayed here. Plus, his 2.25M puts the Leafs cap right to the top and over with no movement.

Robidas/Horton LTIR of 7.55 million....poof....cap problem gone. (pretty sure MLSE has a group of people dedicated to the cap....but i'm sure you know better)

And i truly love this repeated 27th in GA....like playing rookie D and forwards had nothing to do with it. Like we weren't knowingly going to finish in the basement to acquire a top pick. Like our goaltending wasn't hot ****ing garbage for 90% of the season.

And contrary to your twisted beleaf, NHL teams actually do have players as "security blankets". It's called depth....most people understand this.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

So one poster in this thread is advocating for the Edmonton Oilers "throw the young kids to the wolves with no veteran support" model.

Is he kidding????? Seriously, I want to know.

Having a cheap veteran to step in with injuries and poor play from young rookies is the smartest thing a team can have.