Proposal: TOR - FLA - ANA

Big Muddy

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1. That's what the Duck fans have been saying (they will just keep Gibson), but that doesn't seem to matter. Glad you finally realized that.
2. As much as I'd love to give up Knies for a guy with a .904 sv% for the last 3 years, it's a bad fit. He should retire a Duck anyways. I have a feeling Mrazek will be spending a lot time on the LTIR, we will see how that contract works out.
2. Duck fans, or fans of any other team don't care what issues the Leaf fans have. That problem is unique to the Leafs and their fans.

And yes, Mrazek is a problem and will be regarded as a cap dump if the Leafs attempt to trade (dump) him to another team. So, if you package him in any trade proposal, expect to pay more.
3. What's #1 based on, anyways?
Its what one of your fellow Leaf nation members said. See #139. BTW, this poster is not alone in those sentiments. The main board is littered with Leaf fans who seem to want to find a better goalie.
 
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Tufted Titmouse

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Gibson had 1 bad season in 2019-2020

In 2021-2022

He played with his #1 d out for 68% of the season and his second best defensive during 59%... withdraw 2 best d of every team and you will see a lot of goalie in trouble.

This season at january 31 he was at 0 922%. The probably he was all alone until the end of season. In his last 26 game, his team was outshot by at least 11 shot and more 13... 50% of game he played. Just gave you an exemple, last 111 of kuemper in Arizona( an other awful tea.) His tran was outshoot by 11+ 19 time of 111 games played... what can he really do?!?!?!

He had the 4th worst (24th overall) low & medium danger sv% of all goalies who played 43 games or more. He's been letting in more softies than he ever has. Yes, his D was bad, but I would argue a lot of the guys ahead of him had worse or equally as bad D but performed quite a bit better.

This isn't a huge problem in itself, but we're talking about the 4th highest paid goalie here, and we're being asked for our best assets. The risk is just too big.

Its what one of your fellow Leaf nation members said. See #139. BTW, this poster is not alone in those sentiments. The main board is littered with Leaf fans who seem to want to find a better goalie.
So wait, did Dubas say it? You said Dubas prefers Gibson, but then you quote a post (that isn't quoting Dubas) saying "if Dubas...".

So basically, you just made that up.
 

Big Muddy

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1. He had the 4th worst (24th overall) low & medium danger sv% of all goalies who played 43 games or more. He's been letting in more softies than he ever has. Yes, his D was bad, but I would argue a lot of the guys ahead of him had worse or equally as bad D but performed quite a bit better.

This isn't a huge problem in itself, but we're talking about the 4th highest paid goalie here, and we're being asked for our best assets. The risk is just too big.


2. So wait, did Dubas say it? You said Dubas prefers Gibson, but then you quote a post (that isn't quoting Dubas) saying "if Dubas...".

So basically, you just made that up.
OK, I'll go point by point one more time (then I'm off to better things).

1. Who cares? If the Leaf fans (or Dubas) thinks Gibson is not that good, or won't be an improvement, then there's no need for a trade proposal or a discussion about a trade proposal. Then, let's just close this thread. Its what I said initially and all along. Close the thread.

2. I didn't say anything because I don't care about any of this. I just repeated what another nation member fan said because they evidently do care.

The whole point is that its really the Leaf fans that want this trade and/or the trade proposal discussions, whereas most everyone else doesn't care except for maybe wanting to see the Leafs squirm a little more.

If the Leafs want to keep Campbell and lose other assets, I don't care.

And, if they want to find another solution for another goalie, then that's going to cost assets, but once again, I don't care. This thread along with many others could be moved to Leaf sub-forum where they talk about "value" until they are blue in the face. Everybody wins then.
 
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thusk

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He had the 4th worst (24th overall) low & medium danger sv% of all goalies who played 43 games or more. He's been letting in more softies than he ever has. Yes, his D was bad, but I would argue a lot of the guys ahead of him had worse or equally as bad D but performed quite a bit better.

This isn't a huge problem in itself, but we're talking about the 4th highest paid goalie here, and we're being asked for our best assets. The risk is just too big.

Low or medium danger shot is just where the shot is taken... a direct shot of outside with no screen will be the same a one timer shot from a cross crease pass...

A screen shot where you get 5 player to screen the goalie and than its impossible for the goalie to see the puck will be the same than a weak shot from blueline without any player in front.
 

lwvs84

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He had the 4th worst (24th overall) low & medium danger sv% of all goalies who played 43 games or more. He's been letting in more softies than he ever has. Yes, his D was bad, but I would argue a lot of the guys ahead of him had worse or equally as bad D but performed quite a bit better.

This isn't a huge problem in itself, but we're talking about the 4th highest paid goalie here, and we're being asked for our best assets. The risk is just too big.


So wait, did Dubas say it? You said Dubas prefers Gibson, but then you quote a post (that isn't quoting Dubas) saying "if Dubas...".

So basically, you just made that up.
Does that account for screening players (Ducks usually had no one clearing the front of the net) and bounces (there was probably at least a half dozen bounces off Shattenkirk and in alone)? Most teams were able to set up, wait for screens, or the perfect shot every time.
 
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seanlinden

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Still doesn't answer the question. Dubas has a good goalie in Campbell and Ducks & their fans don't seem particularly interested or motivated to move Gibson. There must be some reason (or reasons) why Leaf fans want to trade for Gibson. What is it?

The fact that we've been beaten by some of the biggest names in goaltending in the past 2 years (Price & Vasi); and the perception that we need an "elite #1" in order to break through; and that this core, with an elite #1 goalie, could be unstoppable.

There's a very high likelyhood that Gibson, with his play over the last 3 years, is similar or worse than Campbell was this year. Jack Campbell beat out Freddy Andersen for a job last year, and Andersen was playing much better than Gibson has been.

However, with the exception of Fleury, he's probably the only available goalie that could be an elite #1. Everyone else is more of a known commodity.
 

Big Muddy

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The fact that we've been beaten by some of the biggest names in goaltending in the past 2 years (Price & Vasi); and the perception that we need an "elite #1" in order to break through; and that this core, with an elite #1 goalie, could be unstoppable.

There's a very high likelyhood that Gibson, with his play over the last 3 years, is similar or worse than Campbell was this year. Jack Campbell beat out Freddy Andersen for a job last year, and Andersen was playing much better than Gibson has been.

However, with the exception of Fleury, he's probably the only available goalie that could be an elite #1. Everyone else is more of a known commodity.

Wouldn't a good GM already have a top notch goal tender? The most likely and best method would be to draft one (like the 2 examples you mentioned).

I'm sure the GMs of teams that have these tenders will happily give theirs up though at low cost.
 

duckpuck

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The point is if Dubas believes that Gibson will be better than Campbell (at least to the tune of ~$1.4m)... and if the Ducks determine that they're better off to try and get some value out of Gibson, to return assets that are likely to increase in value, whereas Gibson will probably decrease.

Oh, I see. Now we are getting some answers and are getting somewhere.

I'll summarize:
  1. Dubas might think Gibson is a better goalie than Campbell.
  2. Leafs have cap issues, so even signing Campbell will create some issues and necessitate other moves.
  3. Leaf fans want to dump Mrazek. Mrazek is a cap dump, so that's understandable. But other teams don't really want cap dumps unless there is compensation.
  4. And, to top it all off, the Ducks don't really need or want to move Gibson.

That sure adds up to the Leafs needing to do something whereas the Ducks don't. That explains everything and is pretty logical.

Glad we worked that out.

Regarding the two posts above, I think there is one issue being overlooked. The ducks are one of the few teams that can take Mrazek's contract, provide a (potentially) elite goalie in return, and might be willing to trade their (potentially) elite goalie for the right price. Toronto could attempt to address the goalie position in separate moves (sign a UFA and then pay something to dump Mrazek). So the question is whether better goalies than Gibson are available as UFAs (or via trade) at a lower cost.

More on the "potentially" below.

The fact that we've been beaten by some of the biggest names in goaltending in the past 2 years (Price & Vasi); and the perception that we need an "elite #1" in order to break through; and that this core, with an elite #1 goalie, could be unstoppable.

There's a very high likelyhood that Gibson, with his play over the last 3 years, is similar or worse than Campbell was this year. Jack Campbell beat out Freddy Andersen for a job last year, and Andersen was playing much better than Gibson has been.

However, with the exception of Fleury, he's probably the only available goalie that could be an elite #1. Everyone else is more of a known commodity.
I think this is a very good post. The only thing I would add is that the floor with gibson is pretty high and for anyone who has watched him the last three years, the elite ability is CLEARLY there. He has carried the team during long stretches and was widely considered the top goal tender for the USA team earlier this year.

Ultimately, he's worn down in the later part of the year (I think more mentally than physically) and lost concentration when the team was out of contention and playing laughably bad in front of him. And, of course, the ducks have been awful with the best players hurt and not many very good players. Not excusing Gibson's play - and some ducks fans often comment on Gibson's attitude/mental approach - but the dynamic is pretty clear.

So what is a team potentially trading for? Gibson is literally in his prime age-wise and has shown no signs that his physical skills are in decline. There are no guarantees, but I think it is VERY likely he returns to top form, is a top 5 goalie, and at worse a top 15 goalie. And in the playoffs, he'll be a guy who can steal games for the next 5+ years.

The ducks are in an interesting spot. They can field offers but be patient. I think he's still held in very high regard among gms and scouts.
 

seanlinden

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Regarding the two posts above, I think there is one issue being overlooked. The ducks are one of the few teams that can take Mrazek's contract, provide a (potentially) elite goalie in return, and might be willing to trade their (potentially) elite goalie for the right price. Toronto could attempt to address the goalie position in separate moves (sign a UFA and then pay something to dump Mrazek). So the question is whether better goalies than Gibson are available as UFAs (or via trade) at a lower cost.

More on the "potentially" below.


I think this is a very good post. The only thing I would add is that the floor with gibson is pretty high and for anyone who has watched him the last three years, the elite ability is CLEARLY there. He has carried the team during long stretches and was widely considered the top goal tender for the USA team earlier this year.

Ultimately, he's worn down in the later part of the year (I think more mentally than physically) and lost concentration when the team was out of contention and playing laughably bad in front of him. And, of course, the ducks have been awful with the best players hurt and not many very good players. Not excusing Gibson's play - and some ducks fans often comment on Gibson's attitude/mental approach - but the dynamic is pretty clear.

So what is a team potentially trading for? Gibson is literally in his prime age-wise and has shown no signs that his physical skills are in decline. There are no guarantees, but I think it is VERY likely he returns to top form, is a top 5 goalie, and at worse a top 15 goalie. And in the playoffs, he'll be a guy who can steal games for the next 5+ years.

The ducks are in an interesting spot. They can field offers but be patient. I think he's still held in very high regard among gms and scouts.

Getting rid of Mrazek is nowhere near the "big deal" posters are making it out to be. He has no trade protection... there are lots of teams looking for a tandem-capable goalie to help stabilize the position a little bit. If one of those teams can pick up a small asset along the way, all the better.

As for what Gibson is -- he seems to have higher upside than any UFA goalie outside of Ville Husso (as you could get a Shesterkin/Vasi challenger at $6.4m, roughly $2m less than those guys are paid/going to be paid).

But, he also has by far the biggest downside because I don't believe anyone in the UFA crop is going to get $6m+ this year. He certainly seems to be held in high regard amongst the pro hockey people, but that regard will certainly change if he goes to new scenery, and continues to be a 3.00 / .904 goalie, or really, anywhere near that.

For a team like Toronto, a lot has focused on what futures the Leafs would give up to get him. A much bigger component of any Gibson-to-Toronto deal needs to be "how are they going to clear the cap space to accommodate him?"

The Leafs spent just under $5.5m on their goaltending tandem last year. Acquiring Gibson means you're likely to spend around $7.5m when you factor in a backup. Rielly got a $2m raise, which basically comes from the cap increase and Kessel off the books. You can probably pay for Gibson + Backup by moving Kerfoot & Mrazek, while replacing Kerfoot with a $1.5m forward. The problem is -- you've now taken an already top-heavy team, and made them even top-heavier.

When you do that, and subtract material amounts of futures, that becomes a real problem. Futures can deliver performances well in excess of their contracts as they're on ELCs, or can be used to trade for guys that are underpaid. It's very difficult for a good team with cap challenges to trade futures for guys that aren't clearly underpaid.
 

DingDongCharlie

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Call me crazy... but I don't think it's THAT far off...

Toronto needs to send more, or remove Stolarz. Maybe instead of Knies (who I suspect the Leafs grossly overvalue), it's Robertson + somebody other than Niemla or Knies. Maybe the Toronto portion is Gibson & Stolarz for Mrazek, Kerfoot, and Robertson.

On the Florida side, I also think it's a bit lobsided, but the Panthers could theoretically change that with a bit of retention. Mrazek at $5m IMO is better than Bob at $8.8m.

Do something like this:

To Toronto:
John Gibson
Anthony Stolarz

To Florida:
Petr Mrazek

To Anaheim:
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.2m retained)
Nick Robertson
Alex Kerfoot
Evan Nause (56th Overall in 2021) - via FLA

Ok, crazy.
 

seanlinden

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Wouldn't a good GM already have a top notch goal tender? The most likely and best method would be to draft one (like the 2 examples you mentioned).

I'm sure the GMs of teams that have these tenders will happily give theirs up though at low cost.

Drafting goalies is like throwing darts blindly. They are notoriously unpredictable.

- Andrei Vasilevsky had 18 players drafted before him -- including Tampa selecting Slater Koekkoek.
- Igor Shesterkin had 117 players drafted before him.
- Juuse Saros had 98 players drafted before him.
- Ilya Sorokin had 77 players drafted before him.
- Jacob Markstrom had 30 players drafted before him, and took 6 years before he became a reasonably good goalie.
- Frederik Andersen was drafted in the 7th round by Carolina, and subsequently the end of the 3rd round by Anaheim.
- Heck, even John Gibson had 38 players drafted before him.
 

DingDongCharlie

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The big picture is being missed by many. Let’s tag this idea as follows .

If Toronto was going to trade Mzarek for Bob what would they want vg in return for eating that Bob contract? A poop ton you say.

Now you want to dump the Bob contract to Anaheim while pulling in Gibson. What would that cost? A poop ton.

None of this makes sense except for Florida
 

duckpuck

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Getting rid of Mrazek is nowhere near the "big deal" posters are making it out to be. He has no trade protection... there are lots of teams looking for a tandem-capable goalie to help stabilize the position a little bit. If one of those teams can pick up a small asset along the way, all the better.

As for what Gibson is -- he seems to have higher upside than any UFA goalie outside of Ville Husso (as you could get a Shesterkin/Vasi challenger at $6.4m, roughly $2m less than those guys are paid/going to be paid).

But, he also has by far the biggest downside because I don't believe anyone in the UFA crop is going to get $6m+ this year. He certainly seems to be held in high regard amongst the pro hockey people, but that regard will certainly change if he goes to new scenery, and continues to be a 3.00 / .904 goalie, or really, anywhere near that.

For a team like Toronto, a lot has focused on what futures the Leafs would give up to get him. A much bigger component of any Gibson-to-Toronto deal needs to be "how are they going to clear the cap space to accommodate him?"

The Leafs spent just under $5.5m on their goaltending tandem last year. Acquiring Gibson means you're likely to spend around $7.5m when you factor in a backup. Rielly got a $2m raise, which basically comes from the cap increase and Kessel off the books. You can probably pay for Gibson + Backup by moving Kerfoot & Mrazek, while replacing Kerfoot with a $1.5m forward. The problem is -- you've now taken an already top-heavy team, and made them even top-heavier.

When you do that, and subtract material amounts of futures, that becomes a real problem. Futures can deliver performances well in excess of their contracts as they're on ELCs, or can be used to trade for guys that are underpaid. It's very difficult for a good team with cap challenges to trade futures for guys that aren't clearly underpaid.

What do you think the cost will be to dump Mrazek? He's got 2 years with AAV of $3.8M, but the real dollars are $8.6M ($4.3M per year). How many teams are there to take him? I don't think its as easy to dump him as you do. Muzzin might actually be easier to trade since the real dollars on his contract are actually lower.

The going rate for a decent quality UFA goalie is $5-6M. So Gibson is a small premium to that amount. Maybe Toronto can find a bargain (Fleury??).
 

Big Muddy

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Drafting goalies is like throwing darts blindly.
Having generational talent (e.g., Matthews) available the year you draft 1st overall is probably even luckier. And, you sidestepped the most important point which is how difficult it will be to get a top notch tender from teams that have them.

The window is narrowing for Toronto though. Matthews has 2 years left, but after next year the NMC kicks in. I'd wonder if other teams GMs might be aware of that and might effect their thinking? I'm sure that divisional and conference rival GMs will be particularly sympathetic LOL.

Good luck to boy blunder in his quest to get that top notch goalie for peanuts though while dumping Mrazek at low cost. Leaf fans should remember what it cost to get rid of Marleau with just one year of term left on his contract.
 
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Gliff

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All this John Gibson talk is reminding me of when the Blues sent an insane package to the Sabers for Ryan Miller cause they believed he was still a great goaltender stuck on a bad team and look how that turned out. A first-round exit.

Also, why are people thinking it would be a good idea for Colorado to let go of Byram and Newhook just to get a goaltender that is hopefully good?

Miller was 34 and a rental.

Not even close to comparable.
 

Number1RedWingsFan52

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Yeah i;m sure that Sergei Bobrovsky is just dying to go from a State where he pays no taxes, To the state where he'd pay the highest taxes in the nation. Pretty sure most athletes would love to keep their own money.
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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I am sure any team is trading 2 goalies in the same trade, and then the same team yet! This is such a video game proposal it isn't even funny!

Also, Toronto gives up a 57th overall prospect and that not only is enough to get rid of Mrazek's 2 years, but also gets them a great starter and quality backup goalie. Talk about thinking only about one team here.
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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People that can't comprehend that playing net on a bad team for the past 3-4 years equals a not great performance are fooling themselves. If you are a bottom 5 team getting .904 from your starter, that is actually pretty good. He faces a lot more high end chances than any of the guys with Vezina level numbers on good teams, plus he has shitty players pretending to play defence in front of him. How many times do starters on the bottom end teams actually have really good numbers? It isn't very often unless the team plays a super defensive game and even then, most teams don't get amazing goaltending for the whole season when they are bad.

Also, lots of goalies on bad teams, lose big parts of their teams at the deadline as those teams sell off assets and their numbers not surprisingly get worse as the team is even worse then they started out as. Seen it happen in Detroit for about 3-4 seasons in a row. First half of the season we get good or reasonable goaltending, the team starts getting hurt, players get traded, and the numbers fall way off.
 

BlueBaron

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Angry, nah. I'm just enjoying all of these rationalizations about why various teams should give up their goalies for a bunch of Leafs junk when the potential trading partner has little or no interest in moving their player. You have a nice day too.


If you don't like Gibson and think he's lousy, then why waste time trying to convince people to trade him? Why would you want a crappy goalie like him then?
Factors that could come into play are not factors that have to come onto play. Clearly you want a narrow discussion with no context. You are pretending I say this has to happen when all I implied was that they may want to trade him sooner than later.

You have mastered the art of overreaction.
 

Big Muddy

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Factors that could come into play are not factors that have to come onto play.
Clearly, I and many others across multiple threads all dealing with this same subject (Leafs and their cap & goaltender woes) are enjoying these "value" discussions and why other teams should be interested in trading their goalies for peanuts or crap returns when everybody knows exactly why Toronto needs to do this.

If you look at this thread, the whole premise was ridiculous. Yet, here are the nation trying to defend and argue value and whatever else even when those fans are saying that their team isn't even really wanting or considering moving that player(s).

I didn't bother reading the rest of your post, but it is getting boring. Bye bye.
 

thusk

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Having generational talent (e.g., Matthews) available the year you draft 1st overall is probably even luckier. And, you sidestepped the most important point which is how difficult it will be to get a top notch tender from teams that have them.

The window is narrowing for Toronto though. Matthews has 2 years left, but after next year the NMC kicks in. I'd wonder if other teams GMs might be aware of that and might effect their thinking? I'm sure that divisional and conference rival GMs will be particularly sympathetic LOL.

Good luck to boy blunder in his quest to get that top notch goalie for peanuts though while dumping Mrazek at low cost. Leaf fans should remember what it cost to get rid of Marleau with just one year of term left on his contract.

1-Marleau was trade for a 1st because he didnt want to play anywhere else than toronto of san Jose...so the team who acquired him already know they will have to buy out his contract... thats completly different story.

2-yes most of leafs fan underrating goalie value right now and most of them think they can resign campbell around 3.5M. Personnaly i think his salary with actual market will be around 5M.

3-like a lot of people just underrating than mrazek still have a kind of value, okay hes overpaid... but with actual market around 2.8M should be his real value. So we dont talk about a player overpaid of 5 M like Bobrovsky but about 1M (1.5 real money). Leafs will need to give an asset but will not be that high than 2x 2nd round, a 1st or 1 of their 3 best prospect
 

BlueBaron

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Clearly, I and many others across multiple threads all dealing with this same subject (Leafs and their cap & goaltender woes) are enjoying these "value" discussions and why other teams should be interested in trading their goalies for peanuts or crap returns when everybody knows exactly why Toronto needs to do this.

If you look at this thread, the whole premise was ridiculous. Yet, here are the nation trying to defend and argue value and whatever else even when those fans are saying that their team isn't even really wanting or considering moving that player(s).

I didn't bother reading the rest of your post, but it is getting boring. Bye bye.
Lol. What shame. You were so fascinating to me.
 

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