ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Depth? We have 4 very good LD and we just acquired him at the deadline, takes awhile to gel with a new partner. His results were excellent and we’re not trading him for stuff you’d give up.
Proposal: TOR-EDM, TOR-LAK
- Thread starter Americanadian
- Start date
I completely understand what depth is but arbitrarily calling Walman a #3D and calling McMann a 3rd liner is pretty biased. Is McMann a 1st liner if Toronto isn't deep on the wing?
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Considering McMann plays 14 minutes a night, no. Icetime is everything right? Has McMann been a top line winger anywhere else? Because Walman has been a top pairing D.
McMann has third line production and third line minutes. Walman has a history of being a top pairing D, and he was second pairing here, not that tough to figure out and we don’t want your deal. McMann isn’t good enough. You need to table someone better or this isn’t going anywhere.
14 minutes/night is 3rd line minutes though. You stated Walman is better than his ice time dictates, can the same not be true for McMann?
Is he putting up 3rd line production because he's playing 3rd line with Domi or is he putting up 3rd line production because he's only a 3rd liner? He's 56th in 5v5 goals/60, that would point to 2nd line production.
I am completely fine with you personally not liking the deal but I do think the way you rate both players is biased which is why I am pushing back.
Walman was a cap dump less than 365 days ago.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
The Oilers still have Nuge and Hyman to play on McDavid's wing. Nobody is sure if Kane is going to be back or not, but he was certainly good enough on the ice to warrant bringing back to play with Drai next year. Matt Savoie is probably going to get a good, long look as a top six winger this year as well,
They have to figure out how to dump their current underperforming wingers before we can move out defensemen to fill those gaps. The catch is, that we do need to move out salary, but its not on the blueline, because if we move out Walman, we have to find a replacement anyway.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
And he was worth a 1st round pick since then. Detroit making a bad trade last summer doesn't set the market value for him now.
I like McMann. I'd love to find a way to add him. But the issues are 1) that I don't think the value is there - I belive Walman was worth the 1st we paid for him, but comparable players to McMann could be found for less, and 2) I feel like we are being asked to give up the player who is harder to replace in our lineup.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
He was healthy scratched in the finals, but the catch is that he played well enough in rounds 1 - 3 that he will probably get an offer that we wouldn't want to match with our limited cap space even if we do want to bring him back.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 20,052
- 20,842
Kings fan's undervalue Moore. He's better and more impactful than a 34 year old OEL.
Even if we lose Gavrikov, Edmundson is already our 3rd pair LHD. OEL can't fill the 2nd/1st pair LHD we need.
If Trevor Moore has to be traded, it will likely be for cap space.
Even if we lose Gavrikov, Edmundson is already our 3rd pair LHD. OEL can't fill the 2nd/1st pair LHD we need.
If Trevor Moore has to be traded, it will likely be for cap space.
This whole proposal was based off the fact that you can't find players like McMann. Where are you getting a guy who scored 20 goals with players like Domi and Robertson as his most common linemates but are also big and extremely fast and also cost 1.35M?
Puck moving LD are arguably the easiest to find. Is Schmidt going to make more than 3.4M this summer?
i think you mean you dont want him not we. im sure you dont speak for everyone.
Bouboumaster
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2014
- 10,015
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ManofSteel55
Registered User
The value in Walman isn't just in his ability to move the puck. He's a good pk'er, and he blocks a ton of shots as well.
Like I said, I'd trade for McMann any day, but I'd rather not move a defenseman for him. We still need to improve the blueline, not take away from it. Unless we have a replacement for Walman already lined up somehow, I think I'd pass.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Respectfully, 30 point 3rd liners are a dime a dozen. They’re signed in free agency all the time.
If puck moving LD are so easy to come by, why are YOU doing this trade? You want Schmidt, go sign Schmidt. We traded a first for Walman because we liked his fit with the team and he was excellent in the playoffs for us. We don’t want to move him. We JUST traded for him. The organization views him as Ekholm’s replacement longterm.
Name me the LW that's out there for 1.35M or less that scored 20 goals (17 ES), put up 135 hits and skates like the wind.
Again - I am not pushing back because you don't like the trade. I'm pushing back because you continue to explain to me you fundamentally don't understand the value of each player.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
As I explained, Walman has a history of playing top minutes and doing well with them. Can McMann say that?
Playing higher in the lineup means playing against better players too. Per 60 doesn’t mean a whole lot when it’s against other bottom sixes and bottom pairings.
Yzerman made a stupid mistake because he’s a massively overrated GM. I’d rather not follow in his footsteps by trading low on Walman for really no reason. Much like ManOfSteel I actually like McMann I just see absolutely no reason to trade Walman for him. If you’re ever selling McMann for a 2nd and a prospect, sign me up. Walman is a no, however.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
I don’t care about his cap hit, and I like the player. I care about trading a much better player in Walman for a lesser player in McMann. You can’t just slap a third line player in the top six and count your winnings. If you could, the Leafs would have done it. McMann is a third liner and if we were trading for him it would be for the expectation of getting a Foegele type player.
How many top four D come with a cap hit of 3.4 million? How many teams trade away a top four D they’re very happy with and just acquired?
The guy who never cracked 20 minutes/night in Detroit? He absolutely played well with Seider in 2022-23 but was so bad the following season he became a cap dump.
McMann played with Tavares and Nylander for 158 minutes this season and they were the highest scoring line for the Leafs all season. They also had the highest GF% and xGF%. All that is to say he has played elevated minutes and played very well.
For the 3rd time - I am not pushing back because you don't like the trade. I am pushing back on your inability to properly acknowledge what each player is.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
You’re characterizing Walman as a cap dump, im calling a player with third line production in third line minutes a third liner. You’re whining about me talking about McMann’s low minutes but using an arbitrary 20 minute cutoff for Walman when he averaged 19:43 and 19:46 in Detroit??? I see you
We are not the same, your trade is bad for Edmonton, zero Oilers fans want to do it. No Means No.
Here, let me make it simple. You want Walman? Table Knies. McMann isn’t enough.
He was a cap dump. I'm not saying he would be a cap dump today. I'm stating that he factually was a cap dump this time last year.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
The entire hockey world said it was a mistake from the get go. If you drop a $100 bill, I pick it up, and you offer me $50 to get it back, is that a good deal?
Then - factually - Bobby McMann is a third liner, because he played third line minutes and produced like a third liner.
Walman played 3rd pair minutes for the Oilers, therefore, factually he is a 3rd pairing defender.
I don't believe that Walman is only a 3rd pair defenseman but this appears to be the logic you want to go with.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
20+ minutes a night is not third pairing deployment.
Regular season, Walman in Edmonton (21:26) averaged more ice time than Rielly did in Toronto (21:23) Is Rielly A third pairing defenceman? Would you trade him for McMann?
14 minutes a night is third line deployment. McMann - who I said from the get go is a GOOD third liner - is not remotely worth trading Walman for. Nobody agrees with you, no matter how hard you argue, so just drop it and admit your proposal vastly favours Toronto.
In the playoffs, which is where the Stanley Cup is won, Walman was 5th among Oilers D in TOI/GP. He did play over 20:10 per night but your 5th defenseman will do that when OT isn't capped at 5 minutes.
