Top NHL player in the 21st Century so far? #7(Inspired by ESPN ranking)

[bobholly39]

It's a crime that Luongo didn't win the Vezina. 03-04 he should have won clearly but the voters went with Brodeur probably because he had more wins, purely a team stat I might add.

I kind of get it. It's anti climactic to vote for a goalie in such a losing season. 25-33 record

Also - he didn't finish the season strong, nor did his team, which doesn't help.

On February 25th - Florida was 8 points behind Montreal with 2 games in hand for last playoff spot. Uphill battle for sure, but not technically out yet.

Rest of the way - Luongo went:

5 wins, 8 losses, 2 ties
3.06 GAA, 912 sv%

The first 57 games - he was 2.21 GAA, 935 SV%.

I know he wasn't on a very good team obviously, so I'm not blaming him for missing playoffs or losses, but I just think it doesn't help him at all to have such a bad record, while also finishing the season not that strong.

 

[bobholly39]

How is Kane's best season not as good as Kucherov's 2nd season?

If it's all about raw point totals then where do you rank Huberdeau, Gaudreau and Pasternak's best seasons vs. Kane?

Kucherov 2019 is defintely better than Kane 2016. Maybe not by a huge margin - but still better, yes. Which means he has the best 2 seasons.

Kane 2016 looks better than it is because of weak top end competition. Benn isn't anywhere as good as McDavid in 2019 - and Crosby in 2016 had an unatural career worst slow start through 20 games, so his point total is also not up to parby season's end. Kucherov 2019 is a better season and Kucherov lapped a stronger field for points.

But - even outside of that - Kucherov also has the best 2 playoff runs - and possibly 4 of the best 5 amongst both players.

He's simply a better player.

 

[thadd]

Why isn't Chara getting more votes? He played all his years with Ottawa and Boston in this century. He played 200 playoffs games. (Kane 143 and Kucherov 147)

 

[blundluntman]

The "lower scoring era" argument can only go so far when the gap between the two players' greatest seasons are nearly 40 points apart. What Kane did in 2016 was phenomenal and one of the better art ross finishes of this century, but Kucherov's 2019 and 2024 seasons are still better to me even with that context. I'd give Kucherov the slight edge peak/prime wise and everything else is basically a wash when it comes to playoff performances, scoring finishes, etc. Kane's still playing so I guess longevity plays a role but I'd still say Kucherov is a bit ahead career-wise and simply as a better player.

I'm also still annoyed Brodeur was voted over Kucherov but sour grapes do nobody any good so whatever lol

 

[Video Nasty]

Adjusted stats have gotten out of control. In what realm does 106 get close to 144?

 

[Regal]

Kane had weak competition in 2016, but he also outscored Crosby’s Art Ross season the year before and McDavid’s Art Ross the year after (McDavid in ‘19 might have been slightly better, but he didn't really jump in scoring relative to the league until ‘21). Kane’s leads over the other top 10/top 20 scorers was larger and by enough that even accounting for better competition it should be close. He was also the better goal scorer, had worse linemates and was far less reliant on secondary assists on the PP. Kucherov didn’t even lead the league in primary points over McDavid, while Kane’s lead was better. They are very comparable years by any measurable statistic but everyone freaked out when scoring went up and Kucherov’s year got held up higher than it should have

Adjusted stats have gotten out of control. In what realm does 106 get close to 144?

Nobody has said that it’s as good as last season.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Please add Joe Thornton as an option for the next round.

 

[Crow]

Also Kane himself was at times the weak link holding back others.

Never saw that. Which year(s) or situations are you talking about?

 

[Albatros]

Never saw that. Which year(s) or situations are you talking about?

For example in 2011–2012 Kane scored 23+43=66 points in 82 games. Coincidentally the same as Valtteri Filppula in Detroit, although he missed a game.

 

[Crow]

For example in 2011–2012 Kane scored 23+43=66 points in 82 games. Coincidentally the same as Valtteri Filppula in Detroit, although he missed a game.

That was a pretty bad team offensively in a low scoring environment decimated by cap implications and yet he still managed to finish 3rd in scoring with 43 assists. Who was it you think he was holding back as the weak link that year?

 

[daver]

Kucherov 2019 is defintely better than Kane 2016. Maybe not by a huge margin - but still better, yes. Which means he has the best 2 seasons.

Kane 2016 looks better than it is because of weak top end competition. Benn isn't anywhere as good as McDavid in 2019 - and Crosby in 2016 had an unatural career worst slow start through 20 games, so his point total is also not up to parby season's end. Kucherov 2019 is a better season and Kucherov lapped a stronger field for points.

But - even outside of that - Kucherov also has the best 2 playoff runs - and possibly 4 of the best 5 amongst both players.

He's simply a better player.

Statistically, Kane dominated his peers (the Top 10/20/50 scorers) slightly better than Kucherov dominated his peers. How can you just throw out that Kucherov was better other than namedropping? Crosby having a better full season doesn't change much.

And there are lots of edges that Kane gets over Kucherov as pointed out by Regal.

And it is easier to separate yourself from your peers when scoring goes up. The top offensive players in the league are getting a lot more icetime than in 2016.

 

[Shark Finn]

So Kane and Brodeur were tied in the last poll and required a tie-breaker, shouldn't Kane be 7th by that logic?

 

[Albatros]

That was a pretty bad team offensively in a low scoring environment decimated by cap implications and yet he still managed to finish 3rd in scoring with 43 assists. Who was it you think he was holding back as the weak link that year?

Toews when healthy scored 29+28=57 points in 59 games, played a lot with Kane (including PP1) who only assisted 4 of his goals and scored 5 himself. Meanwhile Viktor Stålberg scored 7 and assisted 9 Toews goals despite as good as no PP. I think one can easily argue that playing a lot with Kane held Toews back that year. Also playing with Hossa and Sharp Kane was the weakest link.

 

[Crow]

Toews when healthy scored 29+28=57 points in 59 games, played a lot with Kane (including PP1) who only assisted 4 of his goals and scored 5 himself. Meanwhile Viktor Stålberg scored 7 and assisted 9 Toews goals despite as good as no PP. I think one can easily argue that playing a lot with Kane held Toews back that year. Also playing with Hossa and Sharp Kane was the weakest link.

I thought this was the year they tried kane at center? I don’t think he spent much time with Toews at all. If anyone was being held back it was Kane by trying to play center due to a complete lack of options.

 

[Video Nasty]

It's a crime that Luongo didn't win the Vezina. 03-04 he should have won clearly but the voters went with Brodeur probably because he had more wins, purely a team stat I might add.

Luongo finished behind both Brodeur and Kiprusoff in both Hart and Vezina voting, but sure, you can go with your stance too.

 

[Albatros]

I thought this was the year they tried kane at center? I don’t think he spent much time with Toews at all. If anyone was being held back it was Kane by trying to play center due to a complete lack of options.

They did try that, too (hence Hossa and Sharp), but mainly because Toews was out. When he wasn't out, Kane was his most common linemate, either with Stålberg or with Sharp on the other side.

 

[I am not exposed]

So Kane and Brodeur were tied in the last poll and required a tie-breaker, shouldn't Kane be 7th by that logic?

No.

 

[wetcoast]

So Kane and Brodeur were tied in the last poll and required a tie-breaker, shouldn't Kane be 7th by that logic?

It's summer and it's the way I did the poll.

Kane isn't getting an easy one here he has to earn it.

That being said I'm surprised that Kucherov is getting so much more support this round than several others namely Mack.

 

[WalterLundy]

Adjusted stats have gotten out of control. In what realm does 106 get close to 144?

Agreed. Let’s be real. If Gretzky (and to a lesser extent Lemieux although still remarkable single seasons) didn’t exist neither would the usage of era adjusted stats. Without them you have the all time best seasons in the 150s and McDavid would be called the goat peak forward due to the remaining utilization of these adjusted stats. I guess they’d still exist overall but the prevalence of them would diminish as I believe they are largely a way for people to try and explain the biggest anomaly in the history of the big 4 sports that being Gretzky.

If you are really crude and just use pure GPG you have 3.11 last year and 2.71 in 2016. Moves Kane to 122 in 82 for last season. You can factor in the different scoring levels for special teams and even strength, as well as account for the average scoring of the league elite in each season and it is still Kucherov by a large margin. I use adjusted stats to appeal to the site’s user base at large and to avoid posts I’d make being disregarded due to not using them. I wish I didn’t have to though.

 

[daver]

Agreed. Let’s be real. If Gretzky (and to a lesser extent Lemieux although still remarkable single seasons) didn’t exist neither would the usage of era adjusted stats. Without them you have the all time best seasons in the 150s and McDavid would be called the goat peak forward due to the remaining utilization of these adjusted stats. I guess they’d still exist overall but the prevalence of them would diminish as I believe they are largely a way for people to try and explain the biggest anomaly in the history of the big 4 sports that being Gretzky.

If you are really crude and just use pure GPG you have 3.11 last year and 2.71 in 2016. Moves Kane to 122 in 82 for last season. You can factor in the different scoring levels for special teams and even strength, as well as account for the average scoring of the league elite in each season and it is still Kucherov by a large margin. I use adjusted stats to appeal to the site’s user base at large and to avoid posts I’d make being disregarded due to not using them. I wish I didn’t have to though.

McDavid being the GOAT would not pass the smell test given Kucherov just nearly matched him last year with MacKinnon not far behind him. We have seen enough career overlap to reasonably know that Kucherov and MacKinnon are not as good as Crosby, peak Malkin or peak Ovechkin.

Keep going on the career overlap and Jagr emerges as being on the level of McDavid and Crosby but clearly on a level below Mario and Wayne.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Kane was held back quite a bit playing with some rather subpar talent while Kuch has always gotten to play with guys like Pointe and Stamkos.

Also, one of Kane's worst seasons (11-12) was the whole "Kane as a C" experiment that was failure

 

[wetcoast]

3 votes separating Kane and Kuch with 11 other players getting votes.

will do new poll tomorrow, maybe in the morning but probably evening PST.

 

[Hippasus]

3 votes separating Kane and Kuch with 11 other players getting votes.

will do new poll tomorrow, maybe in the morning but probably evening PST.

Why? Kucherov won.

 

[wetcoast]

Why? Kucherov won.

He is leading by 41-39 voting isn't closed yet.

I'll do the next poll tonight.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Kane is currently at 41 votes and Kucherov at 42. That is as close as it gets.