Top NHL player in the 21st Century so far? #1(Inspired by ESPN ranking)

who is the top NHL player so far for the 21st Century?


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Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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Is this something that is particularly debated?

Yes. It is.

There are many people who only care about "best" and for whom longevity is worth practically nothing. They want to be dazzled and they care nothing for what a player actually contributed to their team over the entire course of their career.

These are the people who claim Orr (who was useless after age 26 and played half a career) is the top player of all time, or Lemieux and Gretzky are interchangeable, Gordie Howe is massively overrated, Guy Lafleur > Joe Sakic, etc.

These are not uncommon opinions, and none of them make a lick of sense unless longevity is worth basically nothing. I've been in several debates now where I mention that more seasons means more chances to win championships and therefore is desirable. I've had several posters tell me they never thought of it that way - which is quite surprising to me, and probably to you as well.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
41,614
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Price was voted best "player" in the world that year, even over Sid. That godly performance got him a Vezina, Hart, Ted Lindsay & Jennings. Hank in 2012 was insane I remember watching him but not in same realm as 2015 price

Sid finished third in points so he wasn't going to win any awards. It was a historically weak year for scoring, if Price has the exact same season in 2014 or 2016 he doesn't win the Hart or Lindsay.

It's definitely in the same realm. To say its not is disingenuous.

Price 2015 - 1.96GAA, .933 SV%

Hank 2012 - 1.97GAA, .930 SV%
 

Nadal On Clay

Djokovic > Nadal > Federer
Oct 11, 2017
3,241
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Ovechkin having the third most votes (instead of 2nd) here is nonsense.

Hopefully the Crosby voters will make things right in the next poll.
 
Apr 14, 2009
9,402
4,977
Canada
Admittedly I'm a Wings homer, but do people really think Patrice Bergeron had a better career than Datsyuk?

Besides the Selke trophy wins (and keep in mind Datsyuk did win this award 3 times), I can't think of a single argument in Bergeron's favour...

Cups: Datsyuk 2 Bergeron 1
point per game seasons: Datsyuk 7 Bergeron 1
80+ point seasons: Datsyuk 4 Bergeron 0
90+ point seasons: Datsyuk 2 Bergeron 0

Like I understand Bergeron was a "generational 2-way player", but Datsyuk won 3 Selke's, so he was a pretty dominant 2 way player in his own right, and was also undisputedly better offensively in every facet of the game.
 
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TheGuiminator

I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
Oct 23, 2018
2,061
1,823
Yes. It is.

There are many people who only care about "best" and for whom longevity is worth practically nothing. They want to be dazzled and they care nothing for what a player actually contributed to their team over the entire course of their career.

These are the people who claim Orr (who was useless after age 26 and played half a career) is the top player of all time, or Lemieux and Gretzky are interchangeable, Gordie Howe is massively overrated, Guy Lafleur > Joe Sakic, etc.

These are not uncommon opinions, and none of them make a lick of sense unless longevity is worth basically nothing. I've been in several debates now where I mention that more seasons means more chances to win championships and therefore is desirable. I've had several posters tell me they never thought of it that way - which is quite surprising to me, and probably to you as well.

So you think there is more value to have a guy like Patrick Marleau for 23 years than peak Gretzky for 5 years ?
 

blundluntman

Registered User
Jul 30, 2016
3,030
3,333
Yes. It is.

There are many people who only care about "best" and for whom longevity is worth practically nothing. They want to be dazzled and they care nothing for what a player actually contributed to their team over the entire course of their career.

These are the people who claim Orr (who was useless after age 26 and played half a career) is the top player of all time, or Lemieux and Gretzky are interchangeable, Gordie Howe is massively overrated, Guy Lafleur > Joe Sakic, etc.

These are not uncommon opinions, and none of them make a lick of sense unless longevity is worth basically nothing. I've been in several debates now where I mention that more seasons means more chances to win championships and therefore is desirable. I've had several posters tell me they never thought of it that way - which is quite surprising to me, and probably to you as well.
Maybe if you avoided hyperbolic statements like the bolded, you'd have a better chance of coming to a common understanding with people in these types of discussions.

Most people intuitively understand/agree that All-time rankings are usually about the qualitative value of a player, not quantitative (which usually only comes into play when both players are on the same level in every other degree). If you want to argue the latter that's fine, both discussions have their value; but you should establish that premise out of the gate rather than trying to pit the two against each other and act like one is senseless.
 

Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
26,004
15,737
Vancouver
Admittedly I'm a Wings homer, but do people really think Patrice Bergeron had a better career than Datsyuk?

Besides the Selke trophy wins (and keep in mind Datsyuk did win this award 3 times), I can't think of a single argument in Bergeron's favour...

Cups: Datsyuk 2 Bergeron 1
point per game seasons: Datsyuk 7 Bergeron 1
80+ point seasons: Datsyuk 4 Bergeron 0
90+ point seasons: Datsyuk 2 Bergeron 0

Like I understand Bergeron was a "generational 2-way player", but Datsyuk won 3 Selke's, so he was a pretty dominant 2 way player in his own right, and was also undisputedly better offensively in every facet of the game.

Well he did play a fair number more games and ended up with more points. I think most people would say Datsyuk was the better player, but I think there’s a feeling that Bergeron had the longer prime. Though I think that’s probably a bit of recency bias as they both didn’t really hit their strides until their mid 20s and both retired from the NHL at the same age. Bergeron had the better early career but he still wasn’t really “Bergeron” yet
 

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
30,566
15,709
Well he did play a fair number more games and ended up with more points. I think most people would say Datsyuk was the better player, but I think there’s a feeling that Bergeron had the longer prime. Though I think that’s probably a bit of recency bias as they both didn’t really hit their strides until their mid 20s and both retired from the NHL at the same age. Bergeron had the better early career but he still wasn’t really “Bergeron” yet
And neither are better than Zetterberg so it really doesn't matter...
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

Registered User
Oct 18, 2013
14,063
5,691
Crosby is the greatest player of the 21st century. The body of work is insane. 19 years straight of ppg plus is gargantuan
 
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HabzSauce

Registered User
Jun 10, 2022
1,515
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Sid finished third in points so he wasn't going to win any awards. It was a historically weak year for scoring, if Price has the exact same season in 2014 or 2016 he doesn't win the Hart or Lindsay.

It's definitely in the same realm. To say its not is disingenuous.

Price 2015 - 1.96GAA, .933 SV%

Hank 2012 - 1.97GAA, .930 SV%
With that logic let's also throw in Ullmark when he won a Vezina. He posted .938 which was better than price and Lundqvist so he too is a comparable?

I don't see a comparable I'm sorry, and not sure how that's being disingenuous. One guy won a Vezina, the other won a Vezina, Jennings, hart & Lindsay. Using the low scoring argument is doing a disservice to Price because I honestly think he still wins all those awards regardless. There was nobody close to as valuable as he was so he was still winning the Hart. Vezina and Jennings obviously too. So maybe the Ted Lindsay goes to a forward instead? Again it's possible but I doubt it with how dominant price was that year.

It goes beyond stats especially since they're both 930%+. Price was pure dominance that year. He was THE team and single handedly won them games all year long. Habs were embarassing, and without price they collapsed the following year. Price was more valuable to Habs than Hank was to the Rags.

If you want to remind yourself how dominant Price was that season, Game 6 sens and Habs full game is on YouTube. Closeout game and he puts up a 43 save shutout to win 2-0 (EN goal at the very end). Puts up a clinic in the final 5 minutes when Ottawa was applying all sorts of pressure. Habs did nothing yet they still win because of Price.

I bring this game up because He had games like this all year long. All Habs had to do was score 1-2 goals and then Price does the rest lol rinse and repeat
 

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,463
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With that logic let's also throw in Ullmark when he won a Vezina. He posted .938 which was better than price and Lundqvist so he too is a comparable?

I don't see a comparable I'm sorry, and not sure how that's being disingenuous. One guy won a Vezina, the other won a Vezina, Jennings, hart & Lindsay. Using the low scoring argument is doing a disservice to Price because I honestly think he still wins all those awards regardless. There was nobody close to as valuable as he was so he was still winning the Hart. Vezina and Jennings obviously too. So maybe the Ted Lindsay goes to a forward instead? Again it's possible but I doubt it with how dominant price was that year.

It goes beyond stats especially since they're both 930%+. Price was pure dominance that year. He was THE team and single handedly won them games all year long. Habs were embarassing, and without price they collapsed the following year. Price was more valuable to Habs than Hank was to the Rags.

If you want to remind yourself how dominant Price was that season, Game 6 sens and Habs full game is on YouTube. Closeout game and he puts up a 43 save shutout to win 2-0 (EN goal at the very end). Puts up a clinic in the final 5 minutes when Ottawa was applying all sorts of pressure. Habs did nothing yet they still win because of Price.

I bring this game up because He had games like this all year long. All Habs had to do was score 1-2 goals and then Price does the rest lol rinse and repeat

What you say about Price can be true, while @Voight also speaks the truth on the perfect external forces that led to him winning, in combination with his terrific play.

Price had an awesome year, but we’ve seen similar stories play out each time the forward crop has no real contenders. A terrific season from a goaltender (or defenseman) gets extra play when the forwards generally strike out.

Over the past 25 years, a non-forward has won the Hart just 3 times, and in every case, there’s other contributing factors, that are almost all the same.

1999-2000: No one scored 100. Jagr missed 19 games and still almost won the award. Pronger wins.

2001-2002: Theodore wins the Hart. Again, no one hits 100. Two 90+ point scorers and two additional 80+ scorers. Iginla manages to tie in votes, but loses on the first place tie-breaker. He’s there on the strength of his 52 goals and winning the scoring race.

2014-2015: Little sizzle when it came to forwards. Sure, there was some vague interest because of a scoring race won on the final day, but no one cracked even 90 points. There were only five 80 point scorers. Only three players topped 38 goals. Ovechkin is runner up solely because he scored 53 goals, a beacon in a year of otherwise unimpressive numbers all around.

2003-2004 explained. This is the one season during this time period that there was no 100 point scorer and a forward still won the Hart. It is easily explained because there was a compelling story with who won it. St. Louis led the Lightning to the best record in the Eastern Conference and was electric during the second half, putting up 26 goals and 62 points in his last 44 games while leading the Lightning to a 30-7-2-5 record the rest of the way.

We all know that Hart is a forward centric award. In recent history, it only goes to a non-forward if two things happen simultaneously: the forward crop has nothing compelling going on and a goalie/defenseman puts up an elite season, making it easy to cast votes for.
 
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Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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With that logic let's also throw in Ullmark when he won a Vezina. He posted .938 which was better than price and Lundqvist so he too is a comparable?

I don't see a comparable I'm sorry, and not sure how that's being disingenuous. One guy won a Vezina, the other won a Vezina, Jennings, hart & Lindsay. Using the low scoring argument is doing a disservice to Price because I honestly think he still wins all those awards regardless. There was nobody close to as valuable as he was so he was still winning the Hart. Vezina and Jennings obviously too. So maybe the Ted Lindsay goes to a forward instead? Again it's possible but I doubt it with how dominant price was that year.

It goes beyond stats especially since they're both 930%+. Price was pure dominance that year. He was THE team and single handedly won them games all year long. Habs were embarassing, and without price they collapsed the following year. Price was more valuable to Habs than Hank was to the Rags.

If you want to remind yourself how dominant Price was that season, Game 6 sens and Habs full game is on YouTube. Closeout game and he puts up a 43 save shutout to win 2-0 (EN goal at the very end). Puts up a clinic in the final 5 minutes when Ottawa was applying all sorts of pressure. Habs did nothing yet they still win because of Price.

I bring this game up because He had games like this all year long. All Habs had to do was score 1-2 goals and then Price does the rest lol rinse and repeat

You don't see a comparable because you're a Habs fan... any neutral fan can see both seasons were dominant and essentially neck and neck. I really dont see how Price wins the Hart or Lindsay in a year where Crosby (14) and Kane (16) dominated the scoring race. Again, great season but it's ridiculous to think he didn't benefit from 2015 being low scoring year with the Art Ross winner having 89 points. The low scoring argument isn't a disservice to him in the slightest, he benefitted from it. Thats a fact.

Everything you said about Price can be said about Hank.
 
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HabzSauce

Registered User
Jun 10, 2022
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You don't see a comparable because you're a Habs fan... any neutral fan can see both seasons were dominant and essentially neck and neck. I really dont see how Price wins the Hart or Lindsay in a year where Crosby (14) and Kane (16) dominated the scoring race. Again, great season but it's ridiculous to think he didn't benefit from 2015 being low scoring year with the Art Ross winner having 89 points. The low scoring argument isn't a disservice to him in the slightest, he benefitted from it. Thats a fact.

Everything you said about Price can be said about Hank.
Sorry that is what my eyeballs showed me. I'm a goalie fan not just a habs fan. I watched both of them like crazy every year, I was obsessed. And I was more blown away with what Price did that year than any other goalie in post-lockout era. In my opinion in terms of pure dominance, only other goalie in that tier was 2012 Quick in playoffs. Everyone else including 2012 Hank is a tier below for me.

I never said Price didn't benefit from low scoring. He absolutely did from a voting's perspective, but it is a disservice when you imply that he would have lost had there been a couple of high scoring forwards. We will never know but I think he is still a lock for the Hart regardless. Price was beating teams all by himself for the entire year. Pure dominance. Habs were brutal to watch. I have a tough time imagining any forward having a bigger impact on their team than Price that year.

I also don't think the opinion of your average neutral fan should mean anything, considering all the takes we see being tossed around. I think a better demographic would be to target goalies specifically, and/or players in general that played against both of them. I would wager Price would win by a landslide if asked who was better especially when asking the players.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
41,614
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Mulberry Street
Sorry that is what my eyeballs showed me. I'm a goalie fan not just a habs fan. I watched both of them like crazy every year, I was obsessed. And I was more blown away with what Price did that year than any other goalie in post-lockout era. In my opinion in terms of pure dominance, only other goalie in that tier was 2012 Quick in playoffs. Everyone else including 2012 Hank is a tier below for me.

I never said Price didn't benefit from low scoring. He absolutely did from a voting's perspective, but it is a disservice when you imply that he would have lost had there been a couple of high scoring forwards. We will never know but I think he is still a lock for the Hart regardless. Price was beating teams all by himself for the entire year. Pure dominance. Habs were brutal to watch. I have a tough time imagining any forward having a bigger impact on their team than Price that year.

I also don't think the opinion of your average neutral fan should mean anything, considering all the takes we see being tossed around. I think a better demographic would be to target goalies specifically, and/or players in general that played against both of them. I would wager Price would win by a landslide if asked who was better especially when asking the players.

It's not a disservice all, it's a fact. There has been. clear example of how every time a non forward wins the Hart it's because there wasn't a strong season from a forward. Again, Price had a great season. Was it miles ahead of any other goalie post lockout? No, it wasn't. Would he have won the Hart in any other year? Probably not. Everything you aid about Price can be said of Hank. The only reason he didn't win the Hart is because Malkin had an amazing year (i.e. strong season from a. forward).
 
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Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
14,131
10,969
Maybe if you avoided hyperbolic statements like the bolded, you'd have a better chance of coming to a common understanding with people in these types of discussions.

Most people intuitively understand/agree that All-time rankings are usually about the qualitative value of a player, not quantitative (which usually only comes into play when both players are on the same level in every other degree). If you want to argue the latter that's fine, both discussions have their value; but you should establish that premise out of the gate rather than trying to pit the two against each other and act like one is senseless.

My statement isn't hyperbolic.

Putting Orr or Lemieux above Gretzky is virtually synonymous with claiming longevity is worth nothing.

So you think there is more value to have a guy like Patrick Marleau for 23 years than peak Gretzky for 5 years ?

I don't know exactly where the line is but I think yes, that is conceivable.

And if you disagree, where do you draw the line? 4 years? 3 years? 1 year?
 

Plural

Registered User
Mar 10, 2011
33,780
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Crosby. McDavid is probably better player, but Sid has played for 20 years and all of those years he was superb.

Sid
McDavid
.
.
.
Rest of the bunch
 

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