Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 8
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Seventies' VsX equivalents for eligible forwards:
- Oliver was a player I was very high on coming into this project. As other lists came in with his ranking much lower than my own, I realized perhaps I was too high on him. But he does look very good in this field. He may lack the very high-end peak of the rest of the star forwards here, but he stands with any of them as a long-term producer. Very good in the NHL playoffs, too. But was he considered small and soft, and did this affect his greatness?
- Darragh feels a little out of place. I don't think he was a particularly great player. He came up big for the Senators a few times but it needs to be said, he may have been their worst starting player for a good deal of the time he spent with them. I know that says more about the team than it does him, but it still serves to call into question how much of an impact talent he really was. How could one vote him ahead of any of these other forwards?
- Yes, there's enough data to give a solid 3y and 5y score to MacDougall for his time as the top scorer for the MAAA in the 1890s. His career was too short to amass a good 7y and 10y score, but that should not be held against him. If anything, I'd credit him with a bonus for being one of the 2 most proven offensive forces of his era, compared to Smith/Morris/Dunderdale/Roberts/Oliver/Harris, who make up.... what, 12th-17th in their own era?
- Who can tell us more about Harris the player? I think with Dunderdale we're at the bottom of the barrel as far as HHOF-elected PCHA forwards go, then you have the likes of Morris, Harris and Oatman. Is he better or worse than his numbers, and why?
One thing I can tell you about Harris is he scored 4 points in the final game of the 1920-21 season in which he and his teammates were hell-bent to get him the scoring title. The entire game was garbage time, as it did not make a lick of difference to the standings, and ended up 11-9. Reports in Empire Of Ice suggest this was not a serious game at all. And usually, prior to this, the last game or two games were cancelled when the standings could not be affected. This was the first time they let the game go ahead when nothing but the scoring title was on the line, and exactly what they feared would happen, did.
Had they not played this game, as per usual practice, Harris' scores would say 78-72-66-59. I'd have him in the same spot on the above chart, but he'd lose a little lustre from that 3 year peak for sure.
So among the forwards added this round, I like Oliver and MacDougall more, Harris and Darragh less.
| player | 3y | 5y | 7y | 10y |
| T.Smith | 103 | 97 | 88 | 71 |
| Morris | 94 | 89 | 82 | 67 |
| Dunderdale | 94 | 85 | 78 | 71 |
| Roberts | 94 | 83 | 75 | 62 |
| Oliver | 87 | 79 | 76 | 70 |
| Walsh | 102 | 85 | 62 | 44 |
| Russell | 89 | 78 | 69 | 51 |
| Harris | 82 | 74 | 68 | 61 |
| Noble | 74 | 71 | 67 | 59 |
| Broadbent | 77 | 66 | 60 | 53 |
| MacDougall | 91 | 72 | 55 | 38 |
| Darragh | 69 | 66 | 63 | 57 |
| Walker | 69 | 61 | 57 | 52 |
- Oliver was a player I was very high on coming into this project. As other lists came in with his ranking much lower than my own, I realized perhaps I was too high on him. But he does look very good in this field. He may lack the very high-end peak of the rest of the star forwards here, but he stands with any of them as a long-term producer. Very good in the NHL playoffs, too. But was he considered small and soft, and did this affect his greatness?
- Darragh feels a little out of place. I don't think he was a particularly great player. He came up big for the Senators a few times but it needs to be said, he may have been their worst starting player for a good deal of the time he spent with them. I know that says more about the team than it does him, but it still serves to call into question how much of an impact talent he really was. How could one vote him ahead of any of these other forwards?
- Yes, there's enough data to give a solid 3y and 5y score to MacDougall for his time as the top scorer for the MAAA in the 1890s. His career was too short to amass a good 7y and 10y score, but that should not be held against him. If anything, I'd credit him with a bonus for being one of the 2 most proven offensive forces of his era, compared to Smith/Morris/Dunderdale/Roberts/Oliver/Harris, who make up.... what, 12th-17th in their own era?
- Who can tell us more about Harris the player? I think with Dunderdale we're at the bottom of the barrel as far as HHOF-elected PCHA forwards go, then you have the likes of Morris, Harris and Oatman. Is he better or worse than his numbers, and why?
One thing I can tell you about Harris is he scored 4 points in the final game of the 1920-21 season in which he and his teammates were hell-bent to get him the scoring title. The entire game was garbage time, as it did not make a lick of difference to the standings, and ended up 11-9. Reports in Empire Of Ice suggest this was not a serious game at all. And usually, prior to this, the last game or two games were cancelled when the standings could not be affected. This was the first time they let the game go ahead when nothing but the scoring title was on the line, and exactly what they feared would happen, did.
Had they not played this game, as per usual practice, Harris' scores would say 78-72-66-59. I'd have him in the same spot on the above chart, but he'd lose a little lustre from that 3 year peak for sure.
So among the forwards added this round, I like Oliver and MacDougall more, Harris and Darragh less.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Really hoping to get past the legend of MacDougall into the player himself. Does he have the biggest star power/name value left in the project? I would have thought his VsX3 would have been higher. He has a strong Stanley Cup record for the era.
Tommy Smith has the highest VsX3, VsX5, VsX7, VsX10. I know he's not great defensively, but that's a pretty strong resume.
Walker's offense still looks bad, but if he is the clear cut best defensive forward after Nighbor it really warrants induction.
Moran is the only goalie available. He was also the only goalie available last round.
Jack Campbell is the first player to come up that I didn't have on my prelim list, which reading into it now I can see was a miss by me. Does he have the biggest star power of pre 1895? I would have thought Routh, but maybe I'm reading into it wrong. He's definitely coming up before I expected him.
Tommy Smith has the highest VsX3, VsX5, VsX7, VsX10. I know he's not great defensively, but that's a pretty strong resume.
Walker's offense still looks bad, but if he is the clear cut best defensive forward after Nighbor it really warrants induction.
Moran is the only goalie available. He was also the only goalie available last round.
Jack Campbell is the first player to come up that I didn't have on my prelim list, which reading into it now I can see was a miss by me. Does he have the biggest star power of pre 1895? I would have thought Routh, but maybe I'm reading into it wrong. He's definitely coming up before I expected him.
Looks like I reached quite a bit on Punch Broadbent. 
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
I disagree, and I think Darragh was the better of the two Senators between him and Broadbent. It's not an opinion I'm dead set on, and I think they're fairly close, but my impression is that Broadbent was more of a complimentary player than Darragh was. And, also, that Darragh was better than Broadbent when they were both the best forwards on the post-Marty Walsh, pre-Frank Nighbor Senators.
An interesting tidbit on Darragh from his rookie season in 1910-11, in an article outlining the top goal-getters in a season where assists weren't tracked:
The Edmonton Journal - 10 March 1911 said:
I don't think Harris is better than his numbers, certainly not when compared with the unavailable Oatman, who I'd probably rank on my ballot if he were available this round. He strikes me as a vanilla scorer, Morris-type who was another strictly complimentary player, only Morris actually put up elite numbers year after year. It just doesn't seem to me like Smokey was a very significant player, and he's probably the first guy up who I'd need to be really sold on that he belongs in the top-60.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
You may be right re: Broadbent/Darragh.
But also maybe not. Broadbent does have the better numbers despite missing a couple key years in world war I, and he was uniquely physical and a very good backchecker.
I don't feel strongly enough about either of them to argue per se, I'm pretty sure neither will be in my top 10 this round which lessens the amount that I would really care about this comparison... for now
But also maybe not. Broadbent does have the better numbers despite missing a couple key years in world war I, and he was uniquely physical and a very good backchecker.
I don't feel strongly enough about either of them to argue per se, I'm pretty sure neither will be in my top 10 this round which lessens the amount that I would really care about this comparison... for now
BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
- 31,233
- 14,221
Jack Campbell! Finally. Best player in the world in the late 1880s early 1890s, for about 2-3 years. Short peak, sure, but considering the era, he gets a pass from me on that.
Will be my #1 based on star power and because he played in the earliest era. His competitor was Allan Cameron, another guy I wish was eligible, and who played longer but didn't peak as high.
Will be my #1 based on star power and because he played in the earliest era. His competitor was Allan Cameron, another guy I wish was eligible, and who played longer but didn't peak as high.
I'm very high on Harry Oliver. Here is his bio from my book Golden Boys:
For all you trivia buffs out there, if you ever want to sound smart the next time you're watching an NHL playoff game, mention that the first Manitoban to ever score a Stanley Cup playoff goal was none other than Selkirk native Harry Oliver.
It's safe to say that Harry Oliver had a gift. That gift was a strong skating stride that was described as being "smooth as silk" and he possessed great stick-handling abilities and an accurate shot. He was a gentlemen on and off the ice. Being a humble man, Harry was a silent leader that spoke with his performance on and off the ice.
Being only 5'8'' and 150 pounds, Oliver was appropriately named "Pee-Wee" during his career. The book Ultimate Hockey wrote that, "In an era when a small man could finesse his way to professional hockey, Oliver was considered to be in a class by himself. He moved with the speed and grace of a greyhound. Always the perfect gentlemen on and off the ice, Oliver never smoked or drank and was always dressed to the nines. As a skills player, he let the likes of Red Dutton, Eddie Shore, Billy Coutu and Sprague Cleghorn do the fighting."
The first player to score at the Boston Garden and the first to score 100 goals in a Boston Bruins uniform, Oliver carved out a remarkable sixteen season Hall of Fame career for himself that saw him play professional hockey in Calgary, Boston and New York.
Harry Oliver was born in Selkirk on October 26th 1898. A self-taught hockey player, Harry perfected his shooting and skating technique on the frozen Red River near his home messing around with friends. "When I was a kid, there was no organized hockey," Oliver recalled. "We just went out and played, sometimes on an outdoor rink, but mostly on the river."
Oliver didn't even play organized hockey until he joined the Selkirk Fisherman junior club as a seventeen year old. The son of a single mother, Harry's mom was vital in Oliver's career early on and encouraged her son to reach new heights and play hockey as a way to explore North America.
Playing junior as well as senior hockey with the Selkirk Fishermen, Oliver was playing a lot of hockey during the winter months. In 1919, the Fishermen won the Manitoba Senior Hockey League title and challenged the Hamilton Tigers for the Allan Cup. Harry scored a goal in the second game but it wasn't enough as the Selkirk Fishermen lost the two-game total goals series by a 7-6 scoreline.
Oliver's talent was evident enough that by the next season he was playing hockey for the Calgary Canadians in the Alberta Big-4 senior league and then later joined the Calgary Tigers of the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL) for the 1921-22 season. It was the speedy right winger's first taste of professional hockey, but Harry sure didn't show it as his speed and grace quickly made him one of the league's best players. Oliver spent five seasons with the Tigers and was well over a point-per-game player during his time in Calgary and was always one of the league's top scorers. He was twice named to the WCHL First All-Star Team (1924, 1925) and his time in Calgary was highlighted with an appearance in the 1924 Stanley Cup finals where his squad eventually fell to a more powerful Montreal Canadiens team.
Eyeing a chance to play in the National Hockey League, Harry was sold to the Boston Bruins on September 4th 1926. He enjoyed playing with the likes of fellow Winnipegger Frank Frederickson and the very tough Eddie Shore. "I left the rough stuff to others, especially to Eddie Shore when I played for Boston," recalled Oliver.
Harry was put on the team's first line with Frank Fredrickson and Percy Galbraith. They were called The Boston Fog Line and they always seemed to put the puck in the net while they were on the ice. Bruins coach Art Ross, who was not known to praise his own team too much, called them the most smoothest-working forward line he had ever seen.
The 1928-29 season would be the pinnacle of Harry's hockey career. It would be an interesting campaign as star player Frank Frederickson was traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates mid-season and Bill Carson joined Harry and Percy Galbraith on the Bruins' top line. During the season, Harry set a then NHL record for fastest goal at the start of the game when he scored just ten seconds into a contest against the Toronto Maple Leafs that ended 5-2 in his Bruins favour.
In the playoffs, Boston was pitted against the Montreal Canadiens in the semi-finals. Montreal, the best team in the NHL during the regular season was considered to be the overwhelming favourite. Well, Oliver and the Bruins swept aside the supposedly favourite Canadiens in three straight games. This put them in the Stanley Cup final where they went toe-to-toe with the New York Rangers. It marked the first time in National Hockey League history that two American teams played each other for the Stanley Cup.
The final series was reduced to a best-of-three, while the previous round was best-of-five. Apparently this was designed to theoretically reduce the chance of an upset. Game one was at the Boston Garden and the Bruins rolled to a 2-0 victory. Bruins goalie Tiny Thompson was terrific and earned the shutout.
Game two went back to Madison Square Garden in Manhattan, but there was nothing stopping the Bruins. They were on a mission. Harry scored the game's opening goal early in the second period when he split the Rangers defense and fooled goalie John Ross Roach on a shot from in close. Oliver later assisted on teammate Bill Carson's Stanley Cup winning goal with just 118 seconds left in the game, giving the Bruins a 2-1 win and more importantly, the team's first Stanley Cup championship.
Harry recalled the Cup winning goal many years later and how they were a lot more stoic than what you'd see today after such an important goal. "I was going down the right side. I saw Bill Carson loose on the right side. I passed him the puck and wingo! It was in on the left side," Oliver said. "Today, they make a big fuss about a goal, hugging each other and jumping up and down. We just gave a tap on the shoulder, nice going, and that was all. Today, they're more emotional after a goal.
After eight seasons in a Bruins uniform, Harry was traded to the New York Americans on November 2nd 1934 and played with the New York club until the conclusion of the 1936-37 season. On a line with Art Chapman and Lorne Carr, Oliver continued to be a productive scorer until the day he retired.
When Harry left the game of hockey in 1937, he had played nearly 600 professional hockey games over a sixteen year career. During his eleven seasons that were played in the National Hockey League, he scored 212 points in 463 NHL games. One of the most gentlemanly players of his time, Oliver was always in the running for the Lady Byng trophy and never took more than 24 penalty minutes a season during his entire professional career.
Oliver is the All-Time top scorer, assist and goal scorer of the Calgary Tigers WCHL franchise. He was his team's top point-getter for seven straight seasons with the Calgary Tigers and then the Boston Bruins. A terrific career that was highlighted by the 1929 Stanley Cup, Oliver was one of the quieter superstars of his era.
Harry came back to Selkirk following his hockey career and lived at a house on Reid Avenue. He worked as a self-employed electrician by trade. He then moved to Winnipeg where he worked for the Weights and Measures Department of the Canadian Government and was the head electrician for an airplane repair depot. While he was living in Winnipeg, Harry's house on Borebank Avenue was broken into and all of his old hockey memorabilia was stolen. To this day, none of his trophy's and Stanley Cup items have turned up. He soon after moved to a condo in the Osborne Village area.
It should also be noted that Harry was a very religious man. Whether or not that's why he was such a gentlemanly player remains to be seen, but he had a strong faith in god which seemed to carry him through life. Harry and his wife were proud members of the United Church in Selkirk throughout their lives.
"Harry and his wife Lottie were very generous people," recalled grand-nephew Bill Martin. "They didn't have any kids of their own so they kind of inherited my dad and his two brothers. He came from a single family, his mother raised him, there was no dad, so he wanted to make sure he did his part as a family man despite not having any children of his own."
Oliver received the amazing honour of being inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1967. For Harry, it was an amazing experience because him and his wife Lottie got to go to Toronto for the ceremony and he got visit with old friends like Eddie Shore that he had lost contact with once he retired from hockey and moved back to Manitoba.
In his later years, Oliver moved back to Selkirk and passed away there in June 16th 1985 at the age of 86.
"Very soft spoken and modest, he wasn't all that outgoing and led by example," recalled Bill Martin. "He didn't really talk about being a professional hockey player a whole lot."
Andrew Podnieks 2003 book Honoured Members is a piece that looks at every person that has ever been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. For Harry, he wrote that, "Oliver played like a gentleman on the ice and behaved like one off it as well. He skated like the wind and moved with balletic grace. His career was marked by an effortless on-ice grace."
For all you trivia buffs out there, if you ever want to sound smart the next time you're watching an NHL playoff game, mention that the first Manitoban to ever score a Stanley Cup playoff goal was none other than Selkirk native Harry Oliver.
It's safe to say that Harry Oliver had a gift. That gift was a strong skating stride that was described as being "smooth as silk" and he possessed great stick-handling abilities and an accurate shot. He was a gentlemen on and off the ice. Being a humble man, Harry was a silent leader that spoke with his performance on and off the ice.
Being only 5'8'' and 150 pounds, Oliver was appropriately named "Pee-Wee" during his career. The book Ultimate Hockey wrote that, "In an era when a small man could finesse his way to professional hockey, Oliver was considered to be in a class by himself. He moved with the speed and grace of a greyhound. Always the perfect gentlemen on and off the ice, Oliver never smoked or drank and was always dressed to the nines. As a skills player, he let the likes of Red Dutton, Eddie Shore, Billy Coutu and Sprague Cleghorn do the fighting."
The first player to score at the Boston Garden and the first to score 100 goals in a Boston Bruins uniform, Oliver carved out a remarkable sixteen season Hall of Fame career for himself that saw him play professional hockey in Calgary, Boston and New York.
Harry Oliver was born in Selkirk on October 26th 1898. A self-taught hockey player, Harry perfected his shooting and skating technique on the frozen Red River near his home messing around with friends. "When I was a kid, there was no organized hockey," Oliver recalled. "We just went out and played, sometimes on an outdoor rink, but mostly on the river."
Oliver didn't even play organized hockey until he joined the Selkirk Fisherman junior club as a seventeen year old. The son of a single mother, Harry's mom was vital in Oliver's career early on and encouraged her son to reach new heights and play hockey as a way to explore North America.
Playing junior as well as senior hockey with the Selkirk Fishermen, Oliver was playing a lot of hockey during the winter months. In 1919, the Fishermen won the Manitoba Senior Hockey League title and challenged the Hamilton Tigers for the Allan Cup. Harry scored a goal in the second game but it wasn't enough as the Selkirk Fishermen lost the two-game total goals series by a 7-6 scoreline.
Oliver's talent was evident enough that by the next season he was playing hockey for the Calgary Canadians in the Alberta Big-4 senior league and then later joined the Calgary Tigers of the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL) for the 1921-22 season. It was the speedy right winger's first taste of professional hockey, but Harry sure didn't show it as his speed and grace quickly made him one of the league's best players. Oliver spent five seasons with the Tigers and was well over a point-per-game player during his time in Calgary and was always one of the league's top scorers. He was twice named to the WCHL First All-Star Team (1924, 1925) and his time in Calgary was highlighted with an appearance in the 1924 Stanley Cup finals where his squad eventually fell to a more powerful Montreal Canadiens team.
Eyeing a chance to play in the National Hockey League, Harry was sold to the Boston Bruins on September 4th 1926. He enjoyed playing with the likes of fellow Winnipegger Frank Frederickson and the very tough Eddie Shore. "I left the rough stuff to others, especially to Eddie Shore when I played for Boston," recalled Oliver.
Harry was put on the team's first line with Frank Fredrickson and Percy Galbraith. They were called The Boston Fog Line and they always seemed to put the puck in the net while they were on the ice. Bruins coach Art Ross, who was not known to praise his own team too much, called them the most smoothest-working forward line he had ever seen.
The 1928-29 season would be the pinnacle of Harry's hockey career. It would be an interesting campaign as star player Frank Frederickson was traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates mid-season and Bill Carson joined Harry and Percy Galbraith on the Bruins' top line. During the season, Harry set a then NHL record for fastest goal at the start of the game when he scored just ten seconds into a contest against the Toronto Maple Leafs that ended 5-2 in his Bruins favour.
In the playoffs, Boston was pitted against the Montreal Canadiens in the semi-finals. Montreal, the best team in the NHL during the regular season was considered to be the overwhelming favourite. Well, Oliver and the Bruins swept aside the supposedly favourite Canadiens in three straight games. This put them in the Stanley Cup final where they went toe-to-toe with the New York Rangers. It marked the first time in National Hockey League history that two American teams played each other for the Stanley Cup.
The final series was reduced to a best-of-three, while the previous round was best-of-five. Apparently this was designed to theoretically reduce the chance of an upset. Game one was at the Boston Garden and the Bruins rolled to a 2-0 victory. Bruins goalie Tiny Thompson was terrific and earned the shutout.
Game two went back to Madison Square Garden in Manhattan, but there was nothing stopping the Bruins. They were on a mission. Harry scored the game's opening goal early in the second period when he split the Rangers defense and fooled goalie John Ross Roach on a shot from in close. Oliver later assisted on teammate Bill Carson's Stanley Cup winning goal with just 118 seconds left in the game, giving the Bruins a 2-1 win and more importantly, the team's first Stanley Cup championship.
Harry recalled the Cup winning goal many years later and how they were a lot more stoic than what you'd see today after such an important goal. "I was going down the right side. I saw Bill Carson loose on the right side. I passed him the puck and wingo! It was in on the left side," Oliver said. "Today, they make a big fuss about a goal, hugging each other and jumping up and down. We just gave a tap on the shoulder, nice going, and that was all. Today, they're more emotional after a goal.
After eight seasons in a Bruins uniform, Harry was traded to the New York Americans on November 2nd 1934 and played with the New York club until the conclusion of the 1936-37 season. On a line with Art Chapman and Lorne Carr, Oliver continued to be a productive scorer until the day he retired.
When Harry left the game of hockey in 1937, he had played nearly 600 professional hockey games over a sixteen year career. During his eleven seasons that were played in the National Hockey League, he scored 212 points in 463 NHL games. One of the most gentlemanly players of his time, Oliver was always in the running for the Lady Byng trophy and never took more than 24 penalty minutes a season during his entire professional career.
Oliver is the All-Time top scorer, assist and goal scorer of the Calgary Tigers WCHL franchise. He was his team's top point-getter for seven straight seasons with the Calgary Tigers and then the Boston Bruins. A terrific career that was highlighted by the 1929 Stanley Cup, Oliver was one of the quieter superstars of his era.
Harry came back to Selkirk following his hockey career and lived at a house on Reid Avenue. He worked as a self-employed electrician by trade. He then moved to Winnipeg where he worked for the Weights and Measures Department of the Canadian Government and was the head electrician for an airplane repair depot. While he was living in Winnipeg, Harry's house on Borebank Avenue was broken into and all of his old hockey memorabilia was stolen. To this day, none of his trophy's and Stanley Cup items have turned up. He soon after moved to a condo in the Osborne Village area.
It should also be noted that Harry was a very religious man. Whether or not that's why he was such a gentlemanly player remains to be seen, but he had a strong faith in god which seemed to carry him through life. Harry and his wife were proud members of the United Church in Selkirk throughout their lives.
"Harry and his wife Lottie were very generous people," recalled grand-nephew Bill Martin. "They didn't have any kids of their own so they kind of inherited my dad and his two brothers. He came from a single family, his mother raised him, there was no dad, so he wanted to make sure he did his part as a family man despite not having any children of his own."
Oliver received the amazing honour of being inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1967. For Harry, it was an amazing experience because him and his wife Lottie got to go to Toronto for the ceremony and he got visit with old friends like Eddie Shore that he had lost contact with once he retired from hockey and moved back to Manitoba.
In his later years, Oliver moved back to Selkirk and passed away there in June 16th 1985 at the age of 86.
"Very soft spoken and modest, he wasn't all that outgoing and led by example," recalled Bill Martin. "He didn't really talk about being a professional hockey player a whole lot."
Andrew Podnieks 2003 book Honoured Members is a piece that looks at every person that has ever been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. For Harry, he wrote that, "Oliver played like a gentleman on the ice and behaved like one off it as well. He skated like the wind and moved with balletic grace. His career was marked by an effortless on-ice grace."
I'm glad to see a couple more of the really early era guys here in MacDougall and Campbell (oddly enough, both of the Montreal Victorias, though their careers didn't overlap... unless I am forgetting a game or two), to go along with Paddy 'King of Goalkeeps' Moran. I'll definitely find some time this week to summarize the information I have on them so people don't have to go through the research thread.
Long story short case for each of them:
Jack Campbell- hockey's first superstar. Information is sparse, but the level of praise he gets is on another level in comparison to his contemporaries. I don't know a lot about his career pre-1887, but I believe he did play in one of the earlier Montreal Carnival tournaments, so his career was actually pretty lengthy for the era.
Robert MacDougall- right upfront, I'll be honest; I don't know if he was the best forward of those Victorias teams. That said, he was definitely the trigger man, and he scored buckets of goals for a long time (for the era). MacDougall is also harmed by the fact that a lot of goals the Victorias scored during his career were not tracked. I mentioned it last round when comparing Grant and Young, but the Victorias had far more of those unknown goal scorers than any other team. His scoring exploits were probably much more significant than the stats we have show.
Paddy Moran- the best goaltender pre-Vezina. He played on a lot of bad teams, and still impressed the papers more than any other goaltender of his time.
Long story short case for each of them:
Jack Campbell- hockey's first superstar. Information is sparse, but the level of praise he gets is on another level in comparison to his contemporaries. I don't know a lot about his career pre-1887, but I believe he did play in one of the earlier Montreal Carnival tournaments, so his career was actually pretty lengthy for the era.
Robert MacDougall- right upfront, I'll be honest; I don't know if he was the best forward of those Victorias teams. That said, he was definitely the trigger man, and he scored buckets of goals for a long time (for the era). MacDougall is also harmed by the fact that a lot of goals the Victorias scored during his career were not tracked. I mentioned it last round when comparing Grant and Young, but the Victorias had far more of those unknown goal scorers than any other team. His scoring exploits were probably much more significant than the stats we have show.
Paddy Moran- the best goaltender pre-Vezina. He played on a lot of bad teams, and still impressed the papers more than any other goaltender of his time.
A Case for Jack Campbell
I’ve said this before, but it doesn’t hurt to repeat it- I’m pretty sure (as sure as one could really be without having been there) that Jack Campbell was hockey’s first superstar. I’ve only traced his career from 1887-1890 (and one game in 1891), but Iain Fyffe seems to have him going back to 1884, playing the 1884 Montreal Winter Carnival with the Montreal Wanderers (not the same Wanderers as in the 1900s) and the 1885 Montreal Winter Carnival with the Montreal Footballers. In any case, Campbell is best known for his 1887-1890 career as the Montreal Victorias’ coverpoint; it was during this time that Campbell seemed to have impressed the journalists of the day, as the amount of praise and positive press (without running the numbers) per game far outstrips that received by any other player of his day.Jack Campbell is truly the man who made rushing defensemen famous. Indeed, he was so well known for his rushing exploits that in 1893, almost 2 years removed from his last game, Jack Campbell was used as a reference to praise praise Shirley Davidson, saying that Davidson “made some fine runs and promises to be another Jack Campbell for dashing play”. Campbell’s rushes were not just for show, either, as they resulted in Campbell being a mainstay near the top of the scoring tables for several years; a real good statistical comparison is difficult to make for several reasons (incomplete and/or missing scoring summaries and an uneven schedule being the two major ones), but I think we can look at 1888 as a good sample. In 1888 the AHAC used a series-type schedule, meaning that each team played two games against the other teams in the league. Campbell finished third in goals (with 7- Virtue led with 9) and tied for second in points (with 8- Virtue led with 11), while the next closest defenseman scored just 1 goal and no assists for a total of 1 point (and there was only one defender-only who did that). Before you say that this could have just been a flash in the pan, I’d point out that Campbell was second in the league goals and points the year prior in 1887 (trailing teammate Dolly Swift in both categories). J. Arnton (also of the Vics) was the only other defender credited with points, scoring two goals from the position (the rest Arnton scored that season were while he was listed as a forward, which seems to have been his primary position). Campbell also showed well in the box scores in 1889, again leading all defenders in scoring (though this time with only 2 confirmed goals/points). In 1890 Campbell is outscored among defenders in Challenge games by Allan Cameron of the MAAA (2 goals to 1), but Cameron played 7 of those games to Cameron’s three; adding in the exhibition games, and Cameron takes the scoring lead among defenders, scoring 3 goals in 7 games to Cameron’s 2 goals in 8 games.
Now for some quotes (in chronological order):
“Jack Campbell got in two good runs in this half hour, and perhaps with quicker backing might have scored for the Victorias”
“The seventh and last game was won by the Vics by a pretty piece of play by Jack Campbell”
“Things looked blue for the Victorias. The ball was faced again, and the Victorias commenced to wake up, Campbell doing some fine playing with Swift at his back. His dodging was something grand and with a good run in front of the Ottawa’s goals sent the puck through, scoring the first game for Victoria”
“For the Vics Campbell played a magnificent game”
“Campbell was conspicuous for the fine runs he made at times, making his way through all the players and when it was thought he would wind up by scoring his best efforts would be frustrated by the fine goal keeping of Norris”
“Jack Arnton, Campbell and Barlow for the Victorias played a grand game”
“After the usual rest play was resumed and after ten minutes, Campbell, after a magnificent run from one end of the rink to the other, dodged everyone that came in his way and all but scored. Shanks got the puck to one side, but Campbell had it again in a second and in another second it was between the poles”
“Had the Victorias been a little harder pressed perhaps their play would not have appeared so brilliant and dashing, but such play as Campbell showed can only be characterized as wonderful. His speed and his cleverness at dodging are worth going a long way to see; in a couple of instances he wriggled through the whole McGill team and only stopped at the goal-keeper, while the puck seemed to be magnetically attracted by his stick”
“For the winners J. Campbell again played a marvellous game”
“The Vics forwards, with the exception of Barlow, were never where they were most needed, and only for the strong defence of Harris and Campbell, who were always on hand, it is hard to say what the ultimate result might have been”
“The fifth a last game was a fast one, the Crystal forwards were playing well together endeavoring to reduce the odds against them without success, as the defence of Campbell was very good”
“For the winners, Campbell as usual played brilliantly at cover point and Crathern in goal was invaluable”
“Campbell, Ashes and Barlow (the latter especially) played a rushing and plucky game all through”
“Kinghorn again got it, but his career was short as Cameron stopped him”
“Ashe got it and sent it back to Campbell, who, seemingly, did not expect it and before he realized where he was Hodgson swooped upon it”
“Campbell ran it nearly the entire length of the rink, but it went for nothing”
“Campbell got it, and made a brilliant run, passing through the opposing forces and taking the puck to the lower end of the rink”
“Virtue tried to score but Campbell foiled him in his endeavor”
“Campbell made some brilliant runs and Harris worked ‘the hit’ to great advantage”
“Campbell got the puck in the centre of the ice and passing through his opponents’ ranks scored the first goal for his side”
“Campbell got the puck, ran it down and being challenged passed it over to Barlow, who gave it back to Campbell, who scored once more”
“A heavy check from Campbell and there was a scrimmage”
“One of those grand runs for which Campbell was famous was spoiled by a hard check from Hodgson”
“...then another of Campbell’s irresistible charges leaving the puck behind the M.A.A.A. flags”
“The M.A.A.A. men seemed flushed with victory and immediately started their rushing tactics, but to no purpose, Campbell and Arnton could not be passed”
“The third game was particularly well won by one of those grand rushes of Campbell, who carried the puck the whole length of the rink, lost it near the flags and secured it again just in time to send a neat shot whizzing through the goal”
“Campbell, at coverpoint as usual, however, was a whole team in himself, and it was chiefly due to his fine play that some of the combined rushes of the M.A.A.A. men lost their effectiveness for scoring”
“On the Vic side, as usual, Campbell carried off the honors. He seemed the only one who could withstand the rushes of W. Hodgson successfully, and when he wound up as fine a run as ever was seen in a hockey match by getting the puck past Paton and scoring, he was rewarded with the unstinted applause of the spectators”
“Campbell, of the Victorias, certainly took the honors and his run with the puck, dodging Lowe, Hodgson, Virtue, Cameron and Stewart, and winding up with getting the puck past Paton through the goal post was one of the finest things ever witnessed on ice”
“Campbell at last made of the runs for which he is now do famous, and taking the puck the full length of the ice put it through the posts amidst uproarious applause”
“After a long spell of defence Campbell got the puck from almost in front of goal, saw an opening, and started on one of those phenomenal runs of his. He dodged everybody that came in his way until he got right in front of the Quebec goal, and a well directed swipe sent puck whizzing between the poles”
“Puck had barely been faced when it looked dangerous for the Victoria goals, which Campbell succeeded in relieving”
“Campbell made several fine attempts but he was too closely guarded by Hodgson to do anything effective”
“The fourth started with a grand run by Campbell, which Cameron spoiled just in the nick of time”
“Campbell was in his element, and was always cool and exact in his checking; he seemed to be satisfied with long shots and seldom tried rushing, but he made some wonderful stops”
“Campbell now began to run, and some of his dodges were very effective”
“Of course Arnton was doing fine work at point; so was Campbell a little in advance of him, but the latter player was too closely watched- having two men on him- to get in any of his old-time runs”
“Campbell, who had evidently tired of the loose play of the forwards, attempted one of his rushes. Cameron was on him, however, and failing to take the puck from him with his stick, he clinched and both men went down. Campbell was the first on his skates closely followed by Cameron, however, when an exchange of pugilistic courtesies took place”
“The second half opened with a vigorous attack on the Victoria goals; but Cameron appeared to be a regular stone wall”
“This was plainly evidenced time and again by the way in which Campbell took the ball from one end of the rink to the other and scored. Of course, he has done the same against veteran players, but not quite so frequently as last night”
“Campbell proved time and again that he was able to play most of the whole opposing team”
“Some of the runs up the rink made by Green, Campbell, Arnton and Jenkins were most noticeable, as was all their play”
“Campbell got the puck and made a beautiful run right through the entire Montreal team”
“Barry, Campbell and Barlow played a fine game for the Vics. Campbell was closely watched and whenever he showed a disposition to make one of his flying tripe up the ice two or three of the Ottawa men jumped on him at once”
“Among the Vics, Campbell played a cool and at times effective game”
“Too much, however, was not expected of Campbell, as he was not in condition [note- Campbell was only filling in for this game. He didn’t play any of the previous games, and none of the following games], and then he met men who bothered him considerably, but for all that he played a splendid game”
“When Campbell gets into shape, look out for him”
“The seventh and last game was won by the Vics by a pretty piece of play by Jack Campbell”
“Things looked blue for the Victorias. The ball was faced again, and the Victorias commenced to wake up, Campbell doing some fine playing with Swift at his back. His dodging was something grand and with a good run in front of the Ottawa’s goals sent the puck through, scoring the first game for Victoria”
“For the Vics Campbell played a magnificent game”
“Campbell was conspicuous for the fine runs he made at times, making his way through all the players and when it was thought he would wind up by scoring his best efforts would be frustrated by the fine goal keeping of Norris”
“Jack Arnton, Campbell and Barlow for the Victorias played a grand game”
“After the usual rest play was resumed and after ten minutes, Campbell, after a magnificent run from one end of the rink to the other, dodged everyone that came in his way and all but scored. Shanks got the puck to one side, but Campbell had it again in a second and in another second it was between the poles”
“Had the Victorias been a little harder pressed perhaps their play would not have appeared so brilliant and dashing, but such play as Campbell showed can only be characterized as wonderful. His speed and his cleverness at dodging are worth going a long way to see; in a couple of instances he wriggled through the whole McGill team and only stopped at the goal-keeper, while the puck seemed to be magnetically attracted by his stick”
“For the winners J. Campbell again played a marvellous game”
“The Vics forwards, with the exception of Barlow, were never where they were most needed, and only for the strong defence of Harris and Campbell, who were always on hand, it is hard to say what the ultimate result might have been”
“The fifth a last game was a fast one, the Crystal forwards were playing well together endeavoring to reduce the odds against them without success, as the defence of Campbell was very good”
“For the winners, Campbell as usual played brilliantly at cover point and Crathern in goal was invaluable”
“Campbell, Ashes and Barlow (the latter especially) played a rushing and plucky game all through”
“Kinghorn again got it, but his career was short as Cameron stopped him”
“Ashe got it and sent it back to Campbell, who, seemingly, did not expect it and before he realized where he was Hodgson swooped upon it”
“Campbell ran it nearly the entire length of the rink, but it went for nothing”
“Campbell got it, and made a brilliant run, passing through the opposing forces and taking the puck to the lower end of the rink”
“Virtue tried to score but Campbell foiled him in his endeavor”
“Campbell made some brilliant runs and Harris worked ‘the hit’ to great advantage”
“Campbell got the puck in the centre of the ice and passing through his opponents’ ranks scored the first goal for his side”
“Campbell got the puck, ran it down and being challenged passed it over to Barlow, who gave it back to Campbell, who scored once more”
“A heavy check from Campbell and there was a scrimmage”
“One of those grand runs for which Campbell was famous was spoiled by a hard check from Hodgson”
“...then another of Campbell’s irresistible charges leaving the puck behind the M.A.A.A. flags”
“The M.A.A.A. men seemed flushed with victory and immediately started their rushing tactics, but to no purpose, Campbell and Arnton could not be passed”
“The third game was particularly well won by one of those grand rushes of Campbell, who carried the puck the whole length of the rink, lost it near the flags and secured it again just in time to send a neat shot whizzing through the goal”
“Campbell, at coverpoint as usual, however, was a whole team in himself, and it was chiefly due to his fine play that some of the combined rushes of the M.A.A.A. men lost their effectiveness for scoring”
“On the Vic side, as usual, Campbell carried off the honors. He seemed the only one who could withstand the rushes of W. Hodgson successfully, and when he wound up as fine a run as ever was seen in a hockey match by getting the puck past Paton and scoring, he was rewarded with the unstinted applause of the spectators”
“Campbell, of the Victorias, certainly took the honors and his run with the puck, dodging Lowe, Hodgson, Virtue, Cameron and Stewart, and winding up with getting the puck past Paton through the goal post was one of the finest things ever witnessed on ice”
“Campbell at last made of the runs for which he is now do famous, and taking the puck the full length of the ice put it through the posts amidst uproarious applause”
“After a long spell of defence Campbell got the puck from almost in front of goal, saw an opening, and started on one of those phenomenal runs of his. He dodged everybody that came in his way until he got right in front of the Quebec goal, and a well directed swipe sent puck whizzing between the poles”
“Puck had barely been faced when it looked dangerous for the Victoria goals, which Campbell succeeded in relieving”
“Campbell made several fine attempts but he was too closely guarded by Hodgson to do anything effective”
“The fourth started with a grand run by Campbell, which Cameron spoiled just in the nick of time”
“Campbell was in his element, and was always cool and exact in his checking; he seemed to be satisfied with long shots and seldom tried rushing, but he made some wonderful stops”
“Campbell now began to run, and some of his dodges were very effective”
“Of course Arnton was doing fine work at point; so was Campbell a little in advance of him, but the latter player was too closely watched- having two men on him- to get in any of his old-time runs”
“Campbell, who had evidently tired of the loose play of the forwards, attempted one of his rushes. Cameron was on him, however, and failing to take the puck from him with his stick, he clinched and both men went down. Campbell was the first on his skates closely followed by Cameron, however, when an exchange of pugilistic courtesies took place”
“The second half opened with a vigorous attack on the Victoria goals; but Cameron appeared to be a regular stone wall”
“This was plainly evidenced time and again by the way in which Campbell took the ball from one end of the rink to the other and scored. Of course, he has done the same against veteran players, but not quite so frequently as last night”
“Campbell proved time and again that he was able to play most of the whole opposing team”
“Some of the runs up the rink made by Green, Campbell, Arnton and Jenkins were most noticeable, as was all their play”
“Campbell got the puck and made a beautiful run right through the entire Montreal team”
“Barry, Campbell and Barlow played a fine game for the Vics. Campbell was closely watched and whenever he showed a disposition to make one of his flying tripe up the ice two or three of the Ottawa men jumped on him at once”
“Among the Vics, Campbell played a cool and at times effective game”
“Too much, however, was not expected of Campbell, as he was not in condition [note- Campbell was only filling in for this game. He didn’t play any of the previous games, and none of the following games], and then he met men who bothered him considerably, but for all that he played a splendid game”
“When Campbell gets into shape, look out for him”
Paddy Moran
Paddy Moran's case, more than any other player (probably), relies on throwing stats out the window and focusing on what was written and said about him by the newspapers and his contemporaries. And, honestly, I feel ok with completely disregarding stats here- teams in this era (especially in Moran's early career) were not very balanced in terms of talent (even when the game started to professionalize, thus incentivizing players to move around and thereby dispersing talent a bit, Quebec was apparently unwilling to pay much for better players until much later in Moran's career), we don't know how many shots goalies were facing, and, also, goalies served their own penalties (again, at least as far as I have gotten in Moran's career (through 1909), making it a little bit of a guess as to if a goal was really scored against the goalie, or if it was scored when someone was filling in between the poles. Any kind of GAA stat should not be taken at face value.
With that out of the way, here are some quotes about Moran through 1909 (plus a quote that @Dr John Carlson provided a couple weeks ago from 1912):
1902-
“No men on either team, however, played more brilliantly than the two goalers. Moran in particular distinguishing himself”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal did some most phenomenal stopping and the game was mostly won by him and Quebec’s defence”
“Moran, the goalkeeper of the easterners, was invincible, and stopped shot after shot in rapid succession”
“Moran in the poles was a tower of strength, stopping shots that seemed almost impossible”
“Moran did a lot of slashing with his stick and had to be ruled off several times- a thing that is no usually the case with goal tends”
“only the phenomenal stopping of Moran prevented the rubber being netted”
1903-
“But their weak point was in the defence, although Moran, in goals, stopped a large number of dangerous shots, but could not be expected to do all the work alone”
“... and the one reason for the score not being larger than it was, was on account of Moran’s great stopping”
“Moran, who is now the captain of the team and still plays the position in goals, stopped some hard looking shots”
“They have a star goal man in Moran and Power, who was tried out on Saturday at cover, made good”
“Moran in goals stopped phenomenally”
“Both goal-keepers stopped splendidly, Moran having a great many more stops to make than Nicholson”
“Moran put up a fine game and made several phenomenal stops”
“Moran the Quebec goal man deserves credit for several brilliant plays. He stopped a great many shots at close quarters which would have run up the score very much higher”
“The Quebec, with the exception of Moran, the goalkeeper, were outclassed. Their point and cover point were not able to cope and with the rushes of the Gilmours, McGee and Westwick, and Moran was afforded but little protection. He was the magnet for swift shots dozens of times, but he cleared the nets coolly and deftly, and though the puck went by him ten times, the wonder was that the Ottawa score was not double what it was”
“Moran, in the nets, also played his usual game, stopping time and again shots which looked like sure games”
“... it was the excellent work of Moran in the poles that saved Quebec from having more tallies against them. The Quebec goaler proved himself to be in the top notchers and the Vic forwards gave him plenty of work to do”
“Moran, in the flags, bore the brunt of many an attack, and came out of them with honors”
1904-
“Moran, for Quebec, was unsurpassable and was well supported”
“Their [Quebec’s] defence is not so strong, although Moran in the ents stopped some hard shot and worked hard to relieve the pressure, which at times was strong”
“At time they poured in shots on Quebecs goal which looked like sure games, but Moran did some wonderful stopping, and incidentally he was principally responsible for Quebecs victory”
“... but the Quebec defence, especially Moran in goal, effectively squelched their aspirations”
“Moran was in good form and blocked away volleys of stiff ones that managed to elude the watchful outposts, and his really wonderful work evoked generous applause on many occasions”
“P.J. Moran has played goal for the Quebec Lacrosse Club, the old Dominion Hockey Club, and the Crescent Hockey Club. He succeeded in stopping in the goals of the Quebec Club and is regarded as the best goal keeper of the day in Canada”
1905-
“Jordan played the most brilliant game of the forward line, while Moran, in goal, and Hogan at cover were the particular stars of the team”
“The story of the game is best told when it is said that Paddy Moran distinguished himself in Saturday night’s contest”
“The Quebec goal keeper, Moran, is a good one, but there were numbers of shots made by the Shamrocks which he never was obliged to ward off”
“[o]nly Moran’s good work saved his team”
“Moran, as usual, showed himself a king of goal minders”
“It was regrettable that Moran was the central figure in the incident, as Paddy never showed a clearer claim to the title of premier goal-minder than he did Saturday night. His work was phenomenal throughout and he ranked as individually the most prominent man on the ice. In condemning his slashing of Gilbert, it must be remembered that the Vic line is the most aggressive in the game”
“Frye in goals has played on all three Victoria teams, this being his first year in senior ranks. He has shown improved form each season and promises to rival Paddy Moran before he quits the game”
Moran was the “almost unanimous choice” for best goaltender in the East in 1905, according to a newspaper write-in All Star team.
He was also named to another 1905 team-
“For the thankless position of goalkeeper we have elected Mr. Moran, of Quebec, with his big shin-pads. These have stopped many a goal, but Moran is not particular whether he uses them or not. He frequently projects his face in the way of the puck, anything to stop it.”
1906-
“Moran showed his class by some great stops from every angle of the ice”
“He is the Moran of old, but did not get the same support that came the way of Hague”
“Few games pass in which Moran is goaltend and Bowie forward without a mix-up of some sort between the two. Moran wants no one to bother him in the nets, and Bowie accepts all chances and goes in to score when the opportunity offers”
“Moran’s work between the posts for the visitors went far towards preventing the VIctoria forward line from running up an almost uncountable tally during the first ten minutes of play. He is quick as lightning and handles himself with the agility of a cat”
“He [Moran] was always in the way, and played one of the most remarkable goal-keeper games witnessed in Montreal for a long time”
“had it not been for Moran’s remarkable playing, they doubtless would have made the score much larger”
“Moran, in goals, was every much excited and shouted out valuable hints on how to play the game at the top of his voice”
“Moran, Quebec’s goal tend, did magnificent work in the first fifteen minutes”
“Mr. Pat Moran is an excitable young person but nevertheless he is one of the neatest goal tends in the business”
“Moran did but mediocre work at goal”
“Moran has often done better than he did on Saturday”
“The rusky Quebec goal tend [Moran] had to stop pucks with every bit of his anatomy, and on three occasion had to resort to tricks to save his nets. Once he carried out the rubber folded in his arms, once a timely fall was advantageous, and on the third occasion a quick poke into the midst of a group of struggling players proved useful”
“Shamrocks came near tallying from a mix-up in front of Moran’s citadel, but the wily Quebec goalkeeper was too quick”
“while Moran, as in the Wanderer game, was off color”
“Moran, in the congenial atmosphere of the Arena, was at his best, and stopped in fine style. In this respect Brophy was not far behind”
“Moran had an off night, and was beaten out by three easy ones. Moran’s best performances this year have been away from home”
“Moran was in form equal to his other appearances at the arena this year, and that is at the best in the goalkeeper’s line”
“Moran was again disappointing in goals, and wound up a rather disastrous season on local ice by allowing most of the shots of the first half to go by him. His work improved in the second period, but he was evidently bothered by the poor lighting of the Quebec rink”
1907-
“The defence outside of Moran in goal is the weak spot on the team. Moran is a dandy and made some beautiful stops”
“Paddy Moran, their goalkeeper, again proved himself as good as gold, getting applause, even from the warmest Ottawa supporters. Blair and Power seemed to place explicit confidence in Moran, for they separated whenever an Ottawa man rushed, allowing him to shoot”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal gave an exhibition which was little if anything behind that of Lesueur, while Blair and Joe Power made up a fairly strong defence”
“Moran, in the Quebec flags, was a wonder”
“Moran’s work in goals was a mixture of good and bad”
“... Moran in goals, who had shot after shot rained in upon him and did some excellent work”
“Moran, in Quebec goal, made himself unpopular among Shamrock supporters by the tactics used at times when his goal was menaced, of rushing out and charging the advancing Shamrock”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
1908-
“Moran in the nests for Quebec put up a wonderful game and stopped many hard drives that looked good to score. The Ottawas’ defeat was due in no small measure to his efforts”
“Paddy Moran, who has often been picked as the most useful goalkeeper in Eastern Canada, was in the nets for Quebec”
“Moran, the Quebec goal tend, is the individual whom Ottawa may thank more than any other for their defeat. It is safe to say that his exhibition of last evening was little short of marvellous, and by ar the greatest of his career”
“Moran once more proved himself a peerless goal tend, and never played better”
“Scoring a dozen games against the Quebec defence, particularly Paddy Moran, who is almost impregnable against a shot at fair range, is a big feet and the Vics only rolled up a large score by taking the rubber disc right to the mouth of the cage”
“Pat Moran clinched his claim to the title ‘King of Goalkeeps’”
“Mr. P. Moran, Quebec’s sturdy goalkeeper, was there with the goods, according to his time-worn custom”
“If no other part of his anatomy happens to be available during a crisis, Mr. Moran does not hesitate to stop the puck with his eyebrows”
“Of the Ancient Capital team, Paddy Moran, the goal-keeper, was the top-liner. Moran’s work in the nets characterized him as the best visiting net-guardian seen here this season. He was cool, even in the most exciting moments and the stops which he pulled off with his gloves, chest, pads and stick were nothing short of marvelous”
“Individually, by far the cleverest man of the fourteen was ‘Paddy’ Moran, the man before the twine for Quebec. The exhibition of goal keeping which he gave has never been surpassed or equalled anywhere else”
“Only Moran’s great work prevented him from figuring more largely in the scoring”
Moran was named to both the all-star team voted by fans and the all star team published by the Ottawa Free Press-
“Paddy Moran, of Quebec, has a mortage on the net position. He is known as an aggressive goalkeeper, somewhat of a misnomer for a man in that position. Very few forwards will venture close to Moran, and it is only at the most hand-to-hand quarters he can be scored upon. Billy Nicholson, of Shamrocks, is the nearest approach to Moran”
“While Quebec won, Shamrocks as a matter of fact seemed to be having the better of the play but for one thing, Moran, who was at the top of his form and gave a dazzling display of goal tending”
“Pat Moran was in his full glory, and the big fellow stopped them at such a rate that it looked as if many of them were blocked with his eyes shut, they came so fast and accurate”
“Moran had less to do than Hern and did not star as he did Thursday, but the defeat was not to be laid at his door, as he was beaten out only when saves were almost impossible”
“Moran had less to do than in the Shamrock game and was outstarred by Hern, who was in top form”
“It was entirely thanks to Paddy Moran in the first part of the match that Montreal did not score oftener”
“P. Moran was among those present, and as usual, he made a noise like a stone wall in front of the nets”
“Even Moran had rather a night off”
“Moran did some brilliant work in the poles”
1909-
“Paddy Moran, the veteran goal-keeper of the Quebec team gave what was undoubtedly the greatest performance in the flags ever seen here. Moran had his eye strictly on the rubber throughout and had it not been for his sterling work, the score would have been twice as large. Moran stopped the puck with his hands, feet and body in a remarkable manner. As a goalkeeper Moran is in a class by himself. Last year he was great; this winter he is still greater”
“The Ottawas scored several goals that were not allowed as their opponents’ goal nets had been knocked out of position by Moran falling. He worked this trick several times when the locals looked dangerous”
“Moran was the star on Quebec’s team, his work in goal being splendid”
“In Quebec’s surprising showing, a big factor was the wonderful work of their goal-keeper, Paddy Moran, who in his long career probably never did better work than against Wanderers Saturday night. Moran stopped them from all angles, and his brilliant work put heart into the players in front of him and sent them after Wanderers in a style that threatened to take the champions off their feet”
“Moran was the real star of the team”
“P. Moran is the King of Goalkeepers”
“It is horrible to contemplate what the score might have been had not the versatile Mr. Moran been in goals to shoo the puck away”
“A vast deal of the credit for the good showing of Quebec goes to Paddy Moran”
“Shots of all sorts came his [Moran’s] way- hard ones, easy ones, low ones, and high ones, but they all looked alike to Patrick”
“Lesueur was not called upon to block as many shots as Moran, but he was always on the job when needed. Lesueur is a former Quebec player and tonight he had it on Moran in every way”
“Paddy Moran, whose work in goal is generally a feature of every match, seemed to have lost his eagle eye for once, and only recovered it as the match progressed to its finish”
“Had it not been for the splendid work of Moran in goals, the score would have been even higher”
“Leseur, the Ottawa goal-keep, electrified the populace with some stops that only Mr. P. Moran, of Quebec, can make when in his best form”
“only the stellar work of Paddy Moran in the Quebec nets preventing a much larger tally for Ottawa”
“Paddy Moran distinguished himself with his usual sensational stops”
“Moran is the most sensational goal-keeper in the game. He was warned several times for going down on his knees to block the disc”
“... but for the apparently superhuman efforts of Paddy Moran there might have been many more”
“Lesueur gave a remarkable exhibition in goals and his work was little short of the display put up by Paddy Moran”
This is as far as I’ve gotten in his career, but Dr John Carlson posted this quote a couple weeks ago from 1912-
“Quebec has DULY HONORED her great veterans, Paddy Moran, held by many to be the best goal-minder in the world. Paddy Moran is no 'chiken' [sic] but he's a lively one still. He led the champs in a popular vote - and certainly is one BIG NOISE in the 'Rock City.'' Always with hosts of friends, Moran is idolized by his followers and respected by all”
“No men on either team, however, played more brilliantly than the two goalers. Moran in particular distinguishing himself”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal did some most phenomenal stopping and the game was mostly won by him and Quebec’s defence”
“Moran, the goalkeeper of the easterners, was invincible, and stopped shot after shot in rapid succession”
“Moran in the poles was a tower of strength, stopping shots that seemed almost impossible”
“Moran did a lot of slashing with his stick and had to be ruled off several times- a thing that is no usually the case with goal tends”
“only the phenomenal stopping of Moran prevented the rubber being netted”
1903-
“But their weak point was in the defence, although Moran, in goals, stopped a large number of dangerous shots, but could not be expected to do all the work alone”
“... and the one reason for the score not being larger than it was, was on account of Moran’s great stopping”
“Moran, who is now the captain of the team and still plays the position in goals, stopped some hard looking shots”
“They have a star goal man in Moran and Power, who was tried out on Saturday at cover, made good”
“Moran in goals stopped phenomenally”
“Both goal-keepers stopped splendidly, Moran having a great many more stops to make than Nicholson”
“Moran put up a fine game and made several phenomenal stops”
“Moran the Quebec goal man deserves credit for several brilliant plays. He stopped a great many shots at close quarters which would have run up the score very much higher”
“The Quebec, with the exception of Moran, the goalkeeper, were outclassed. Their point and cover point were not able to cope and with the rushes of the Gilmours, McGee and Westwick, and Moran was afforded but little protection. He was the magnet for swift shots dozens of times, but he cleared the nets coolly and deftly, and though the puck went by him ten times, the wonder was that the Ottawa score was not double what it was”
“Moran, in the nets, also played his usual game, stopping time and again shots which looked like sure games”
“... it was the excellent work of Moran in the poles that saved Quebec from having more tallies against them. The Quebec goaler proved himself to be in the top notchers and the Vic forwards gave him plenty of work to do”
“Moran, in the flags, bore the brunt of many an attack, and came out of them with honors”
1904-
“Moran, for Quebec, was unsurpassable and was well supported”
“Their [Quebec’s] defence is not so strong, although Moran in the ents stopped some hard shot and worked hard to relieve the pressure, which at times was strong”
“At time they poured in shots on Quebecs goal which looked like sure games, but Moran did some wonderful stopping, and incidentally he was principally responsible for Quebecs victory”
“... but the Quebec defence, especially Moran in goal, effectively squelched their aspirations”
“Moran was in good form and blocked away volleys of stiff ones that managed to elude the watchful outposts, and his really wonderful work evoked generous applause on many occasions”
“P.J. Moran has played goal for the Quebec Lacrosse Club, the old Dominion Hockey Club, and the Crescent Hockey Club. He succeeded in stopping in the goals of the Quebec Club and is regarded as the best goal keeper of the day in Canada”
1905-
“Jordan played the most brilliant game of the forward line, while Moran, in goal, and Hogan at cover were the particular stars of the team”
“The story of the game is best told when it is said that Paddy Moran distinguished himself in Saturday night’s contest”
“The Quebec goal keeper, Moran, is a good one, but there were numbers of shots made by the Shamrocks which he never was obliged to ward off”
“[o]nly Moran’s good work saved his team”
“Moran, as usual, showed himself a king of goal minders”
“It was regrettable that Moran was the central figure in the incident, as Paddy never showed a clearer claim to the title of premier goal-minder than he did Saturday night. His work was phenomenal throughout and he ranked as individually the most prominent man on the ice. In condemning his slashing of Gilbert, it must be remembered that the Vic line is the most aggressive in the game”
“Frye in goals has played on all three Victoria teams, this being his first year in senior ranks. He has shown improved form each season and promises to rival Paddy Moran before he quits the game”
Moran was the “almost unanimous choice” for best goaltender in the East in 1905, according to a newspaper write-in All Star team.
He was also named to another 1905 team-
“For the thankless position of goalkeeper we have elected Mr. Moran, of Quebec, with his big shin-pads. These have stopped many a goal, but Moran is not particular whether he uses them or not. He frequently projects his face in the way of the puck, anything to stop it.”
1906-
“Moran showed his class by some great stops from every angle of the ice”
“He is the Moran of old, but did not get the same support that came the way of Hague”
“Few games pass in which Moran is goaltend and Bowie forward without a mix-up of some sort between the two. Moran wants no one to bother him in the nets, and Bowie accepts all chances and goes in to score when the opportunity offers”
“Moran’s work between the posts for the visitors went far towards preventing the VIctoria forward line from running up an almost uncountable tally during the first ten minutes of play. He is quick as lightning and handles himself with the agility of a cat”
“He [Moran] was always in the way, and played one of the most remarkable goal-keeper games witnessed in Montreal for a long time”
“had it not been for Moran’s remarkable playing, they doubtless would have made the score much larger”
“Moran, in goals, was every much excited and shouted out valuable hints on how to play the game at the top of his voice”
“Moran, Quebec’s goal tend, did magnificent work in the first fifteen minutes”
“Mr. Pat Moran is an excitable young person but nevertheless he is one of the neatest goal tends in the business”
“Moran did but mediocre work at goal”
“Moran has often done better than he did on Saturday”
“The rusky Quebec goal tend [Moran] had to stop pucks with every bit of his anatomy, and on three occasion had to resort to tricks to save his nets. Once he carried out the rubber folded in his arms, once a timely fall was advantageous, and on the third occasion a quick poke into the midst of a group of struggling players proved useful”
“Shamrocks came near tallying from a mix-up in front of Moran’s citadel, but the wily Quebec goalkeeper was too quick”
“while Moran, as in the Wanderer game, was off color”
“Moran, in the congenial atmosphere of the Arena, was at his best, and stopped in fine style. In this respect Brophy was not far behind”
“Moran had an off night, and was beaten out by three easy ones. Moran’s best performances this year have been away from home”
“Moran was in form equal to his other appearances at the arena this year, and that is at the best in the goalkeeper’s line”
“Moran was again disappointing in goals, and wound up a rather disastrous season on local ice by allowing most of the shots of the first half to go by him. His work improved in the second period, but he was evidently bothered by the poor lighting of the Quebec rink”
1907-
“The defence outside of Moran in goal is the weak spot on the team. Moran is a dandy and made some beautiful stops”
“Paddy Moran, their goalkeeper, again proved himself as good as gold, getting applause, even from the warmest Ottawa supporters. Blair and Power seemed to place explicit confidence in Moran, for they separated whenever an Ottawa man rushed, allowing him to shoot”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal gave an exhibition which was little if anything behind that of Lesueur, while Blair and Joe Power made up a fairly strong defence”
“Moran, in the Quebec flags, was a wonder”
“Moran’s work in goals was a mixture of good and bad”
“... Moran in goals, who had shot after shot rained in upon him and did some excellent work”
“Moran, in Quebec goal, made himself unpopular among Shamrock supporters by the tactics used at times when his goal was menaced, of rushing out and charging the advancing Shamrock”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
1908-
“Moran in the nests for Quebec put up a wonderful game and stopped many hard drives that looked good to score. The Ottawas’ defeat was due in no small measure to his efforts”
“Paddy Moran, who has often been picked as the most useful goalkeeper in Eastern Canada, was in the nets for Quebec”
“Moran, the Quebec goal tend, is the individual whom Ottawa may thank more than any other for their defeat. It is safe to say that his exhibition of last evening was little short of marvellous, and by ar the greatest of his career”
“Moran once more proved himself a peerless goal tend, and never played better”
“Scoring a dozen games against the Quebec defence, particularly Paddy Moran, who is almost impregnable against a shot at fair range, is a big feet and the Vics only rolled up a large score by taking the rubber disc right to the mouth of the cage”
“Pat Moran clinched his claim to the title ‘King of Goalkeeps’”
“Mr. P. Moran, Quebec’s sturdy goalkeeper, was there with the goods, according to his time-worn custom”
“If no other part of his anatomy happens to be available during a crisis, Mr. Moran does not hesitate to stop the puck with his eyebrows”
“Of the Ancient Capital team, Paddy Moran, the goal-keeper, was the top-liner. Moran’s work in the nets characterized him as the best visiting net-guardian seen here this season. He was cool, even in the most exciting moments and the stops which he pulled off with his gloves, chest, pads and stick were nothing short of marvelous”
“Individually, by far the cleverest man of the fourteen was ‘Paddy’ Moran, the man before the twine for Quebec. The exhibition of goal keeping which he gave has never been surpassed or equalled anywhere else”
“Only Moran’s great work prevented him from figuring more largely in the scoring”
Moran was named to both the all-star team voted by fans and the all star team published by the Ottawa Free Press-
“Paddy Moran, of Quebec, has a mortage on the net position. He is known as an aggressive goalkeeper, somewhat of a misnomer for a man in that position. Very few forwards will venture close to Moran, and it is only at the most hand-to-hand quarters he can be scored upon. Billy Nicholson, of Shamrocks, is the nearest approach to Moran”
“While Quebec won, Shamrocks as a matter of fact seemed to be having the better of the play but for one thing, Moran, who was at the top of his form and gave a dazzling display of goal tending”
“Pat Moran was in his full glory, and the big fellow stopped them at such a rate that it looked as if many of them were blocked with his eyes shut, they came so fast and accurate”
“Moran had less to do than Hern and did not star as he did Thursday, but the defeat was not to be laid at his door, as he was beaten out only when saves were almost impossible”
“Moran had less to do than in the Shamrock game and was outstarred by Hern, who was in top form”
“It was entirely thanks to Paddy Moran in the first part of the match that Montreal did not score oftener”
“P. Moran was among those present, and as usual, he made a noise like a stone wall in front of the nets”
“Even Moran had rather a night off”
“Moran did some brilliant work in the poles”
1909-
“Paddy Moran, the veteran goal-keeper of the Quebec team gave what was undoubtedly the greatest performance in the flags ever seen here. Moran had his eye strictly on the rubber throughout and had it not been for his sterling work, the score would have been twice as large. Moran stopped the puck with his hands, feet and body in a remarkable manner. As a goalkeeper Moran is in a class by himself. Last year he was great; this winter he is still greater”
“The Ottawas scored several goals that were not allowed as their opponents’ goal nets had been knocked out of position by Moran falling. He worked this trick several times when the locals looked dangerous”
“Moran was the star on Quebec’s team, his work in goal being splendid”
“In Quebec’s surprising showing, a big factor was the wonderful work of their goal-keeper, Paddy Moran, who in his long career probably never did better work than against Wanderers Saturday night. Moran stopped them from all angles, and his brilliant work put heart into the players in front of him and sent them after Wanderers in a style that threatened to take the champions off their feet”
“Moran was the real star of the team”
“P. Moran is the King of Goalkeepers”
“It is horrible to contemplate what the score might have been had not the versatile Mr. Moran been in goals to shoo the puck away”
“A vast deal of the credit for the good showing of Quebec goes to Paddy Moran”
“Shots of all sorts came his [Moran’s] way- hard ones, easy ones, low ones, and high ones, but they all looked alike to Patrick”
“Lesueur was not called upon to block as many shots as Moran, but he was always on the job when needed. Lesueur is a former Quebec player and tonight he had it on Moran in every way”
“Paddy Moran, whose work in goal is generally a feature of every match, seemed to have lost his eagle eye for once, and only recovered it as the match progressed to its finish”
“Had it not been for the splendid work of Moran in goals, the score would have been even higher”
“Leseur, the Ottawa goal-keep, electrified the populace with some stops that only Mr. P. Moran, of Quebec, can make when in his best form”
“only the stellar work of Paddy Moran in the Quebec nets preventing a much larger tally for Ottawa”
“Paddy Moran distinguished himself with his usual sensational stops”
“Moran is the most sensational goal-keeper in the game. He was warned several times for going down on his knees to block the disc”
“... but for the apparently superhuman efforts of Paddy Moran there might have been many more”
“Lesueur gave a remarkable exhibition in goals and his work was little short of the display put up by Paddy Moran”
This is as far as I’ve gotten in his career, but Dr John Carlson posted this quote a couple weeks ago from 1912-
“Quebec has DULY HONORED her great veterans, Paddy Moran, held by many to be the best goal-minder in the world. Paddy Moran is no 'chiken' [sic] but he's a lively one still. He led the champs in a popular vote - and certainly is one BIG NOISE in the 'Rock City.'' Always with hosts of friends, Moran is idolized by his followers and respected by all”
Based on this, we can comfortably say that Moran was at least in the conversation for the best goaltender in the world from 1904 through 1912 at the very least, with him being almost certainly the best goalie in the world from 1904 through 1909. We've already let one of his contemporaries at the position - LeSueur- in, and I think that these quotes show that Moran was actually the better goalie for over half of their careers. Moran was among the first still-living goalies admitted to the Hall of Fame (Moran, Lehman, and Connell (I think he died before the induction, but it was close) tie for the honor, having all been elected in 1958) whereas LeSueur was forced to wait a couple classes before finally making it in 1961.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
This is awesome.
It's not even that much! I hope everyone reads it.
Based on the votes last round you can tell who did and didn't do much reading*
(*about Weldy Young, I mean)
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sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
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I think the Campbell playing for the Wanderers and the Montreal Football Club in 1884 and 1885 was Robert Campbell, an older brother of Jack. Another older brother, Alexander James (A. J.), also played on the Montreal Football Club (hockey wise) in 1885. Bob and A. J. can be seen in this photo from 1884 with the Montreal Football Club:
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J. D. (John Douglas) "Jack" Campbell himself was also a player on the Montreal Football Club, but I don't think as early as in 1885. He was born in 1868 and his prime was late 80s/early 90s.
I've been in contact with a relative of Jack Campbell, who laid out some history. The Campbell's were natives of Edinburgh (Scotland) and apparently descendants of two Scottish kings (King Robert II and King James IV). Jack Campbell's grand-nephew was also famous actor Christopher Plummer (seen as Captain Georg von Trapp in The Sound of Music, and father of actress Amanda), whose grandmother Marianne Campbell was a sister of Jack.
So yeah, Campbell wasn't only a pioneering defenseman in hockey, but also related to Honey Bunny from Pulp Fiction.
This below is the 1888 Montreal Victorias. Going from age (19), height (tall) and how his two brothers look, and from the process of eliminating most of his teammates, Jack Campbell should be the guy standing on the far left (from our perspective), though this isn't something I'm 100% sure of (photo identification wise) as of yet.
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
This is a good argument for Campbell to go first. We are discussing players 35+ on the list. A potential best player in the world? That's an easy in for me.
We are comparing him to 5th-10th best at their position in the pro era.
We are comparing him to 5th-10th best at their position in the pro era.
This is awesome, thank you for sharing!I think the Campbell playing for the Wanderers and the Montreal Football Club in 1884 and 1885 was Robert Campbell, an older brother of Jack. Another older brother, Alexander James (A. J.), also played on the Montreal Football Club (hockey wise) in 1885. Bob and A. J. can be seen in this photo from 1884 with the Montreal Football Club:
${pageTitle}
collections.musee-mccord-stewart.ca
J. D. (John Douglas) "Jack" Campbell himself was also a player on the Montreal Football Club, but I don't think as early as in 1885. He was born in 1868 and his prime was late 80s/early 90s.
I've been in contact with a relative of Jack Campbell, who laid out some history. The Campbell's were natives of Edinburgh (Scotland) and apparently descendants of two Scottish kings (King Robert II and King James IV). Jack Campbell's grand-nephew was also famous actor Christopher Plummer (seen as Captain Georg von Trapp in The Sound of Music, and father of actress Amanda), whose grandmother Marianne Campbell was a sister of Jack.
So yeah, Campbell wasn't only a pioneering defenseman in hockey, but also related to Honey Bunny from Pulp Fiction.
This below is the 1888 Montreal Victorias. Going from age (19), height (tall) and how his two brothers looks, and from the process of eliminating most of his teammates, Jack Campbell should be the guy standing on the far left (from our perspective), though this isn't something I'm 100% sure of (photo identification wise) as of yet.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
I need to be helped out a little bit on Jack Campbell.
From the 00s, we had Bowie, who ranked very highly and justifiably so. McGee, with his much shorter career, came a couple rounds later. Going back to the previous 'era', we had Grant, who I feel went too high. Dan Bain went a few rounds later, which felt correct to me and is where I'd have had Grant, and Weldy Young went along with him, who was a little bit older than those two, but with excellent longevity for the time. To me (and I won't pretend like I know this era as well as some others do) this is a pretty agreeable progression and placement of the best players from the older times.
Now, we have Jack Campbell, from the 'era' before Bain, but without the longevity of a Weldy Young to help allay my questions about the quality of the game being played, and to some extent the talent pool being drawn from. I feel like there should be more of a gap between Campbell and Bain/Young/Grant, consistent with what we've had so far in the project. Like I'm on board with recognizing 'the first superstar' but I have a difficult time getting over my concerns with a short career from such an early time period.
From the 00s, we had Bowie, who ranked very highly and justifiably so. McGee, with his much shorter career, came a couple rounds later. Going back to the previous 'era', we had Grant, who I feel went too high. Dan Bain went a few rounds later, which felt correct to me and is where I'd have had Grant, and Weldy Young went along with him, who was a little bit older than those two, but with excellent longevity for the time. To me (and I won't pretend like I know this era as well as some others do) this is a pretty agreeable progression and placement of the best players from the older times.
Now, we have Jack Campbell, from the 'era' before Bain, but without the longevity of a Weldy Young to help allay my questions about the quality of the game being played, and to some extent the talent pool being drawn from. I feel like there should be more of a gap between Campbell and Bain/Young/Grant, consistent with what we've had so far in the project. Like I'm on board with recognizing 'the first superstar' but I have a difficult time getting over my concerns with a short career from such an early time period.
BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
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Monumental work done by @rmartin65 for this project. It's because of him that I discovered Weldy Young, Jack Campbell, Allan Cameron and the myriad of forwards from the 1890s in more details.
Do you think we were too high on Grant, or too low on Young/Bain? Personally, I have Young ahead of Grant, but I don't have a problem with where Grant went; I just think the list is too low on Young. I feel the same way about LeSueur and Moran- Moran, in my opinion, should be above LeSueur, but that doesn't mean LeSueur shouldn't have gone where he did.
My counter to this would be that I don't think we should be applying the same longevity standards for players across the project. Generally (and there are exceptions- I'm looking at you in particular, Dolly Swift) I don't see the same guys at the top for more than a couple of years in the late 1880s/early 1890s. Maybe you'll get some guys still putting in points, but a lot of the time, these aren't the guys the papers are praising. Again, Dolly Swift comes to mind as an example. For as many points as he put up over his very long career, there is a shocking lack of press about him, at least in the sources I have been looking at.
Furthermore, even if some of the same names are kicking around the top of the scoring tables, the games played imbalance is huge; in 1887 the Montreal Victorias played 7 games, the Montreal Crystals played 5, McGill University 2, and Montreal HC and Ottawa HC each played 1- of course that scoring table is going to be riddled with Victorias and Crystals players (and it was- the top 8 scorers were from those two teams). Same kind of thing in 1890- Montreal HC played 9 games, while the Victorias played 7, the Dominions played 4, McGill University played 2, and Ottawa HC and Quebec HC each played 1. This kind of thing was the standard (except for 1888) until the AHC finally made the permanent switch to a series-type season structure in 1893 (after Ottawa dominated the 1892 season but lost their last game of the season, so they weren't the Champions; Montreal HC were named the champions despite a 1-3 Challenge game record, while Ottawa HC was 6-1).
Anyway, it looks like I got myself off track- back to the longevity thing. I think we can all agree that career lengths jumped when the dirty practice of paying players to play became popular/permissible. But, even before then, I think we can make another sort of line in the mid-1890s, where the game seemed to make a jump in popularity- look at at the coverage of an average game in 1896 vs 1890, for example, and see how much more detail is provided in 1896. Hockey became more popular, so I suggest that there was more prestige for these men to play longer, that there was more for men to gain by playing longer. Obviously players still hung up the skates once family or work obligations came up, but you see the guys who start playing in the mid 1890s play more than 3 seasons before disappearing from the game with more regularity than those who started earlier.
To address the talent level argument- I'll again use Dolly Swift as an example, since he did have that freakishly long career. Swift was the leading scorer in the league in 1887 and was the second leading scorer (losing out to MacDougall) in 1896. That's ten years- if the talent level jumped that much, how was Swift able to keep scoring at a high level? Hell, even in 1898, Swift managed to outscore a young Harry Trihey (by my reconstructed stats), who then led the league in scoring in 1899 (again, by my reconstructed stats). Talented players tend to find a way to remain relevant barring injury.
Thank you, this means a lot to me.
I saw your other post, but I'm afraid I don't remember it well enough to respond accurately- from what I do remember, I concur; when Campbell and Cameron overlapped, I do think Campbell was the superior player (though I think they played in very different ways, so it is possible that Campbell's flashiness may have just overshadowed Cameron's quiet efficiency). Cameron did play for several years after Campbell was done, and I think he played well; I don't think he stepped into that superstar role that Campbell had, but I think he showed himself as one of the better coverpoints until Weldy Young and Mike Grant came up.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Interesting note I found just now going through newspapers for a profile on a player coming up later: Harry Oliver was voted the most valuable player on the Stanley Cup finalist Calgary Tigers in 1924, ahead of Herb Gardiner and Bernie Morris:
It turns out that the Gordon Efficiency Medal was actually a big deal for a while in Calgary. The above article states that it was for consistency and hard work but from other sources in other years it's clear that the award was presented to whoever was deemed the most important, or most valuable, player on the squad. It was formerly presented to the best player in Calgary's amateur circuit, which is when Herb Gardiner won it in 1919, the year before the formation of the Big-4. During the days of the Big-4, there were multiple teams in Calgary, and the award was given to the most valuable player among the players on those teams. Mickey MacKay won it in 1920, which I found curious, because I've gathered that MacKay's time in Calgary was lukewarm at best. I was unable to find winners in other years, though I didn't strain myself looking for them as only a few years hold relevance for our purposes.
Now, back to the 1924 award - Bernie Morris was in his final season as a notable player, at least as it pertains to our interest in him for this project, and here he was handily outscored by Oliver. But Herb Gardiner was just a few years away from winning a Hart in the NHL, and that Hart seems to have really leaned in on the 'importance to his team' aspect of the award, which is something that the Gordon Efficiency Medal sought to honour. Don't wanna read too much into one award from one season but it does strike me as interesting.
Calgary Herald - 28 February 1924 said:
It turns out that the Gordon Efficiency Medal was actually a big deal for a while in Calgary. The above article states that it was for consistency and hard work but from other sources in other years it's clear that the award was presented to whoever was deemed the most important, or most valuable, player on the squad. It was formerly presented to the best player in Calgary's amateur circuit, which is when Herb Gardiner won it in 1919, the year before the formation of the Big-4. During the days of the Big-4, there were multiple teams in Calgary, and the award was given to the most valuable player among the players on those teams. Mickey MacKay won it in 1920, which I found curious, because I've gathered that MacKay's time in Calgary was lukewarm at best. I was unable to find winners in other years, though I didn't strain myself looking for them as only a few years hold relevance for our purposes.
Now, back to the 1924 award - Bernie Morris was in his final season as a notable player, at least as it pertains to our interest in him for this project, and here he was handily outscored by Oliver. But Herb Gardiner was just a few years away from winning a Hart in the NHL, and that Hart seems to have really leaned in on the 'importance to his team' aspect of the award, which is something that the Gordon Efficiency Medal sought to honour. Don't wanna read too much into one award from one season but it does strike me as interesting.
BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
- 31,233
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I deleted it because I wanted to re-read the 1887-1889 seasons to refresh my mind.
Thanks for chiming in on this.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
I pretty much agreed with where Young and Bain ended up, and I'd lower Grant to be around them. I'm not terribly high on goalies but I'd also have Moran over LeSueur.
I fully agree on length of careers not being apples-to-apples comparisons across eras. I penalized Frank McGee hard for that in my original list, and softened a bit on it when he came up for voting, partly due to appreciating this fact more by the time he arrived. You mentioned Dolly Swift as an example of a player with excellent longevity, and I recognize his scoring numbers, but as you said he appears to receive less praise than you'd expect. Goal scorers whose numbers outweigh their notoriety are another demographic I don't rate highly (though I actually did rank Dolly on my list).
Beyond Swift, who else from Campbell's years lasted into the mid-to-late 90s? You'd know off the top of your head faster than I could re-reading your season recaps. A comparison of Campbell's longevity with his contemporaries could be useful, to me at least, as somebody who cares about that as an important metric.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
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I would say Morris was pretty washed-up in 1924, he didn't even outscore Cully Wilson that year, and I'm saying that as someone who loves Wilson. But there's an eight-year gap between Morris and Oliver.
By the way, does anyone have Cully on their list? Not saying he belongs or not, but few players encapsulates the era as well as Karl.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Yeah, agreed on Morris being more or less washed by this point, but he's up for voting so I included him as part of the equation.
I did have Cully on my list, actually. Lots of players were labelled as being the 'Bad Man' of a particular team or league, but if I had to pick one player as the 'Bad Man' of the pre-consolidation era, that's my guy.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I love Cully. I longlisted him along with about 100 others, but early on, I didn't see a realistic path to him making it on my list. Too many generations with too many significant/dominant players. He wasn't even a late cut.
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