jigglysquishy
Registered User
I'm not sure how much is there that hasn't been reposted, but if anyone feels they want to read more, the last 2 rounds of the HOH Top Centers project had a lot of discussion about the top (non-Taylor) PCHA centers:
Round 2, Vote 14 (HOH Top Centers)
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Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)
IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted. MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in...
Thank you
The vibe is very much Taylor>>Fredrickson>=MacKay>Keats>Foyston with a bigger gap between Mackay and Keats than Keats and Foyston.
I talked myself into ranking MacKay low because of his middling offense and you guys talked me into having him in my top 4 again.
Some choice quotes from @Sturminator and @TheDevilMadeMe
Mickey MacKay
We'll start with MacKay, both because he's already in and because, if not for Fredrickson, he'd be clearly the best of the not-Taylor group of western league stars, in my opinion.
We start with MacKay's rookie season as a professional, 1914-15, in which he finished second in scoring in the PCHA, a single point behind Cyclone Taylor, and well ahead of the third place finisher. MacKay also performed very well in the Cup finals series against Ottawa , and the Millionaires rolled to a 3-0 sweep of the Sens, winning 26-8 in total goals.
The Spokesman-Review: 7.3.1915:
The Spokesman-Review - Google News Archive Search
So suffice it so say, MacKay started his career with a bang, and Lester Patrick saw him as one of the great assets of the Pacific Coast league. Just for a bit of flavor, here is an article which details just how wild the situation with contracts and competition between the NHA and PCHA was in 1915:
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
At any rate, after a great start, the road started getting bumpy for MacKay.
1915-16: MacKay begins battling injury problems. Misses 3 out of 18 games in 1915-16 (the equivalent of 14 games in an 82 game season), and is third in team scoring with a weak 18 points, behind one of Vancouver's defensemen, Lloyd Cook. Not a strong season.
1916-17: Poor scoring season, but is listed as a 1st team all-star at center in the PCHA for this season. Most likely played as a rover and most likely played well, which would square the seeming incongruity between his poor scoring and 1st AST finish.
1917-18: Weak regular season, low-scoring and not a 1st team all-star. He did, however, have a great performance in the postseason that year, going 2-1-3 in two games of the PCHA finals and then 5-5-10 in five games of a tightly contested Cup finals against the Toronto Arenas, which Vancouver narrowly lost, 3-2 in game five of the finals.
1918-19: Looks like another good season at rover for MacKay. Didn't score a lot, but named 1st AST on the end of season team. Had his jaw shattered towards the end of the season by a cross-check from Cully Wilson, who was subsequently banned from the PCHA for life by the Patricks, and came back east to continue his career.
So much for the first part of MacKay's career. That injury, and a team situation which was changing around him, seems to have marked a turning point in his career as a professional hockey player. He would miss the entire 1919-20 PCHA season, and would come back largely a different player than he had been, in some ways better, and in some ways worse.
Mickey MacKay Part II
So when we left MacKay, he had just had his jaw shattered late in the 1918-19 season, and missed the entirety of the 1919-20 PCHA season, instead electing to play in the Big-4, which was in my opinion sort of a minor professional league on the prairies. But it wasn't just MacKay's jaw that got busted in 1918-19, though. This season also marks the end of Cyclone Taylor's reign of terror in the coast league. After his rookie season, MacKay was probably shifted to rover, where he would have had a lot of defensive responsibilities, and fewer chances to score. On a team with Taylor leading the attack and other quality forwards like Gord Roberts, this makes sense. MacKay would return from his rehab to a team that now needed him to take on a bigger role.
1920-21: MacKay is 10th in PCHA scoring with 19 points, with Smokey Harris and Jack Adams leading the attack for Vancouver. He is listed as a 2nd team all-star at center this season, but was probably still a rover at this time. At any rate, this appears to be a mediocre season for MacKay.
1921-22: This season marks the beginning of MacKay's real offensive prime. He is listed as a 1st team all-star at rover, but was also second in PCHA scoring with 26 points, four points behind the leader, Jack Adams, who was his teammate. This appears to have been an outstanding season for MacKay. Even with help from a teammate, his scoring from the rover position this season was excellent by almost any standard. At any rate, MacKay was mentioned in glowing terms during this season in a very interesting article on the state of PCHA hockey:
17.1.1922 - Calgary Daily Herald:
The Calgary Daily Herald - Google News Archive Search
This document seems to indicate that MacKay was considered the best player in the PCHA during the 1921-22 season, and I tend to think that this is probably true. We will see later, when talking about Fredrickson, that we cannot attribute too much to the above, as the Icelander has strong claim to the "best player" title in the PCHA in both the season before and after this one.
1922-23: Another strong season for MacKay. He is second in scoring in the PCHA, well behind Fredrickson, but well ahead of teammate Lloyd Cook in third place. MacKay is listed as a 1st team all-star at right wing on the end of season team.
1923-24: MacKay does well as a scorer this season, finishing third in the PCHA, but is four points behind the leader, his own teammate and defenseman Art Duncan. He is not listed as an all-star this season, and doesn't seem to have distinguished himself in spite of his superficially good scoring numbers.
Something was going on with MacKay during this period that is a little bit hard to grasp. We see him turning in these strong regular season performances and think that everything was basically right with him, when in fact it was not. Here is what was said about him before the start of the 1924-25 season:
31.10.1924 - The Regina Morning Leader:
The Morning Leader - Google News Archive Search
This is a puzzling document in light of MacKay's seemingly strong performances in the years preceding 1924, and when I first stumbled on it three years ago, it led to a certain amount of confusion. Why would there be complaints about MacKay's performance at this point in his career? He was 3rd in league scoring in the previous season!
What this document indirectly points to, I think, is something else. First of all, there is discussion of MacKay's continuing health problems. He seems to have played through a wide variety of injuries which probably affected his performance. It is generally very hard to judge from games played during this period if a player is injured because it was common for players with injuries which didn't prevent them from skating, at all, to make an appearance in games, even if briefly. I'm not sure quite why this was done, but it is a theme of old-time hockey that guys would get one in the games played column even when they were seriously banged up. I strongly suspect that the article's claims about MacKay's failing health are true. He was probably getting the crap beaten out of him.
But there is also something else going on. Here is MacKay's postseason scoring record, split into pre and post-injury timeframes:
MacKay's postseason performances during this period are, simply put, miserable, and I think this is what the article above is really getting at, without just coming out and calling him a choker. MacKay was excellent in the postseason as a secondary scorer on a team led by Cyclone Taylor, but in the latter part of his career, when he was the best skater in Vancouver, he failed spectacularly.
Just to put this in context, we should also take a look at those teams. The Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons of the 1921-24 era were a very strong franchise. They had the great Hugh Lehman in goal, Art Duncan and Lloyd Cook on defense (the best blueline tandem in the PCHA at this time), and MacKay plus some other good players (Jack Adams, Smokey Harris, Alf Skinner and a young Frank Boucher) at forward. Vancouver dominated the PCHA over this period, and went deep into the playoffs every season, twice going down in game 5 of the Cup finals. They were very, very close to being champions, but could never quite get there.
MacKay's playoff performances in this context are even more damning, in my opinion. This wasn't Marcel Dionne getting knocked around in the playoffs as the lone star on a hopeless team. MacKay was the star of dominant, talented teams that got deep into the playoffs in spite of his lifeless play, but just couldn't get all the way. In MacKay's defense, I think injuries had a lot to do with it, but it is what it is. This is the dark side of MacKay's legacy: he left Vancouver fans wanting more.
Mickey MacKay Part III, La Revanche
So let's wrap up MacKay's career. MacKay did, in fact come back from the dead in the season following that article, and performed very well in 1924-25, in what looks to have been his last real peak season. He placed second in WCHL scoring, one point behind the leader Bill Cook, and was named to the first all-star team at center by referee Mickey Ion, who always picked the western teams, although it seems that he actually played right wing that year. Here is an article explaining the teams:
The Calgary Daily Herald - Google News Archive Search
At any rate, this appears to have been another excellent season for MacKay. It would be his last. He more or less slips into obscurity after 1925, and is never again seen on scoring leaderboards or postseason all-star teams. He would get traded (with $12,000) for Frank Fredrickson in 1929, and ended up playing on a Cup winner with Boston, though he looks to have been a role player on that team, going scoreless in the postseason and only playing in three of the team's five playoff matches.
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What can we say about MacKay's "star power" that hasn't already been said? Not too much more. There aren't a ton of primary source documents which attribute a huge amount of star power to MacKay. This is possibly because he was not well-known to eastern fans, having faded from his peak by the time he came over to play in the NHL, though it is also in part probably an indication that he was, as the above article suggests, something of an "up and downer" throughout his career.
MacKay obviously had a ton of talent - he could skate, pass, shoot and check, but he seems to have had difficulties putting it all together consistently, especially when he was the center of his team's offense. MacKay was a small man, and this is likely the result of nothing more mysterious than physical wear and tear. At any rate, at least one of the players against whom he competed thought very highly of MacKay, and put him into the all-time greats category.
21.2.1945 - Toronto Daily Star:
Toronto Daily Star - Google News Archive Search
So there it is. There are plenty of secondary sources with flowery things to say about Mackay, but I am not interested in regurgitating any HHOF profiles here, nevermind quotes from Ultimate Hockey or any blogs. There is also a "primary source" document which is actually an obituary for MacKay (who died young) which says that his hook check was almost as good as Frank Nighbor's, but I don't put much credence in the nice things we say about the recently departed.
At any rate, MacKay certainly had star power. At his best (probably the 1921-22 season), he was a dominant two-way player who was capable of being one of the leading scorers in the league as well as its best defensive forward, and he seems to have been considered the best western player at that time. Other than that one article, however, impartial, contemporary superlatives about MacKay are fairly hard to find. I tend to take Lester Patrick's "Ty Cobb of hockey" comments in 1915 with a grain of salt, as MacKay was a rookie playing on a superteam which was clearly led by Cyclone Taylor, and the Patricks were trying to push a product.
Ultimately, I can't find too much reason to think that MacKay's career was much more than the sum of its parts. Excellent, but somewhat disappointing, as well. Mickey seems to have been betrayed by his small stature and the roughness of the sport at the time.
HHOF induction dates for the 1910-1926 guys. This shouldn't be used as a ranking (no duh right) but is interesting to look at, IMO
1947: Frank Nighbor, Cyclone Taylor
1950: Newsy Lalonde, Joe Malone
1952: Mickey MacKay
1958: Frank Foyston, Frank Fredrickson, Duke Keats
1974: Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Morris was never inducted, but it there is a good chance that it's because he was stuck with the "draft dodger" label during WW1, even though he was not convicted.
Perhaps it is noteworthy that Dunderdale was passed over multiple times in the 60s, when the Hall was inducting early players en masse, and that he was not inducted until after most people who saw him play weren't around anymore. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything.
Duke Keats Part 1 of 3
This is my attempt at going through a season-by-season outlook of Keat's career, similarly to how Stuminator is going through Fredrickson's and MacKay's.
Keats is a difficult player to evaluate for 2 reasons:
1) He lost a serious chunk of his prime due to World War 1
2) Much of his prime was spent in the WCHL, which is less documented than the PCHA or early NHL.
Excellent start to his career in the NHA (1915-17)
According to the book Ultimate Hockey, "In 1915-16, his rookie season, the tall and muscular lad was stuffed in between Corb and Cy Denneny, a unit that would become the highest scoring in the NHA that season."
Keats had a very strong rookie season at the age of 21, finishing 4th in scoring in the NHA, behind 3 Hall of Famers who were in their prime.
1915-16 NHA
1. Didier Pitre 39
2. Joe Malone 35
3. Newsy Lalonde 34
4. Duke Keats 29
5. Cy Denneny 28
6. Gord Roberts 25
7. Frank Nighbor 24
There is evidence that Keats was already a strong two-way player as early as his rookie year:
1916-17 NHA
Keats was 5th in points per game, but only played 2/3 of the season before leaving for military service during World War 1. He finished 12th in scoring at the end of the year.
Summary: Keats was a top 5 scorer in the NHA in his first two seasons of professional hockey before leaving to fight the first World War. There is evidence he was already a strong back checker by this point.
Keats in World War I (1917-1919)
Keats missed the end of 1917, and all of the 1918 and 1919 seasons to fight in World War I. Unlike World War II, professional hockey players were treated just like any other soldier in World War I. Multiple professional hockey players died during this war, including several Hall of Famers.
Keats would join the 228th Battalion, part of the Royal Canadian Expeditionary Force. I didn't find where Keats himself was stationed, but source indicate that the battalion had troops stationed in both England and France.
The "Big-4" (1919-1921)
After World War I, Keats was recruited as the centerpiece of the new the "Big-4" league.
1919-20 Big 4
1. Duke Keats 32
2. Barney Stanley (Keats' RW) 22
3. Archie Briden (Keats' LW) 18
4. Herb Gardiner 17
Keats did as expected, dominating the fledgling league in scoring, almost doubling the scoring of any non-teammate.
Keats' Edmonton Eskimos won the league championship in both the regular season and playoffs, defeating Calgary 8-2 in a 2 game total goals series in the playoffs. Keats led the way with 2 goals and 2 assists.
This is the year Mickey MacKay took off from the PCHA to play in the Big-4, possibly to rehab his injury. He only scored 11 points, but was awarded the Gordon Efficiency Medal, which may have been a form of MVP (although the criteria for the award isn't clear).
During this season, the Toronto St. Pats, predecessors to the Maple Leafs offered Keats $2000, an enormous sum at the time, to play for Toronto. Seems Keats turned them down (likely because he was being paid under the table by the "amateur" Edmonton squad).
For comparison's sake, the highest paid member of Toronto's 1918 Stanley Cup winning squad was Harry Cameron, at $900.
Apparently, Keats' stickhandling was that good.
In the 1920 offseason, several players defected from the PCHA to the Big-4, leading to charges that the Big-4 was paying players under the table. Regardless of whether this was true, the Big-4 had some serious talent in it in 1920-21. Keats again led the league in scoring, but not be the same margin he did the previous season.
1920-21 Big 4
1. Duke Keats 29
2. Archie Briden (Keats' LW) 25
3. Barney Stanley 21
4. Harry Oliver 20
5. Rube Brandow 20
There appear to have been no playoffs in 1921, as the league collapsed under accusations that some teams were paying players under the table. Keat's Edmonton team and the team from Calgary would join two other teams and form the professional WCHL the following season to compete for the Stanley Cup.
Summary: What to make of Keats' time in the Big-4? It was obviously a weak league, but Keats seems to have been something of a "ringer" who was likely paid under the table by the Edmonton team. And he did exactly what you'd expect from a great player in a weaker league - he dominated the league in scoring. And Toronto was willing to shell out the big money to bring Keats back east to the NHL.
So how good was Keats during these years? Is there any reason to suspect he was any worse than he was before the first World War, when he was a top 5 scorer in the NHA in his first two years of professional hockey? His subsequent performance in the professional WCHL supports this idea.
Duke Keats Part 2 of 3
The WCHL years (1921-1926)
The WCHL was formed from the remnants of the Big-4 and immediately was put into competition for the Stanley Cup:
According to Keat's Legends of Hockey bio, he was the 1st Team All Star center in the WCHL in all 5 years of existence. The information we have from Total Hockey indicates that he may have been the All-Star spare behind Frank Fredrickson for the final year of this period (1925-26).
1921-22
Keats absolutely obliterated the WCHL in its first year of existence:
1. Duke Keats 56
2. George Hay (24 yo) 34
3. Joe Simpson (29 yo) 34
4. Ty Arbour (Keat's LW) 33
5. Barney Stanley 31
6. Dick Irvin (30 yo) 27
7. Art Gagne (Keats' RW) 21
7. Charley McVeigh 21
Hay, Simpson, and Irvin were all HHOFers in their primes and Keats destroyed them.
Here's a single-game summary that Keats was a strong two-way player, at least for this game, although he did get into penalty trouble:
Keats' Eskimos won the regular season title, but were upset in the playoffs.
1922-23
By 1922-23, the WCHL was approaching parity with the PCHA but wasn't there yet. The two leagues played an interlocking schedule (and the inter-league games counted in the standings!), and the WCHL teams appear to have had a 8-15-1 record vs the PCHA . Keats finished behind only his winger in scoring, but there was an injury involved (see quotes later on).
1. Art Gagne (Keat's RW) 43 in 29 games (1.48 PPG)
2. Duke Keats 37 in 25 games (1.48 PPG)
3. George Hay (25 yo) 36 in 30 games (1.20 PPG)
4. Newsy Lalonde (35 yo) 35
5. Harry Oliver 32
6. Joe Simpson 29
7. Ty Arbour (Keats' LW) 28
8. Bill Cook (28 yo) 25
1922-23 was Bill Cook's first professional season (at the age of 28).
Major praise for Keats' strong all-round game:
Keats missed 5 games with injury, and during that period, his team was totally lost:
Keats' Edmonton Eskimos would win the WCHL championship, and he was a hero:
The Eskimos would reach the Stanley Cup finals against the Ottawa dynasty, led by Frank Nighbor, Eddie Gerard, and company. While Ottawa would win the finals and the Cup, Keats gave them trouble:
I think it's noteworthy that Keats' stickhandling was "annoying" to even a Nighbor-led team.
1923-24
The WCHL had surpassed the PCHA as the NHL's biggest rival. The two leagues played an interlocking schedule and the WCHL dominated with a 17-5-2 record vs the PCHA.
1. Bill Cook 40
2. Harry Oliver 34
3. Duke Keats 31
3. George Hay 31
5. Barney Stanley 26
6. Laurie Scott 25
7. Bernie Morris (34 yo) 23
7. Cully Wilson 23
7. Dick Irvin 23
Keats was again among the leading players in the WCHL.
1924-25
The PCHA had disbanded in the offseason. Their two best teams (Vancouver and Victoria) joined the WCHL. AT this point, the WCHL was probably a little bit stronger than the NHL.
Keats was 1 point behind a tie for first place in the league.
1. Mickey MacKay 33
1. Harry Oliver 33
3. Duke Keats (29 yo) 32
4. Bill Cook (29 yo) 32 (missed 3 games)
5. Frank Fredrickson (29 yo) 30
6. Frank Boucher (24 yo) 28
Keats is right up there with Mickey MacKay and Frank Fredrickson in scoring in the first season after the WCHL absorbed the PCHA.
Keats seemed to have the star power to be compared with Fredrickson and Morenz: (Sturminator found this and posted in in the Fredrickson profile)
1925-26
1. Bill Cook 44
2. Dick Irvin 36
3. Corb Denneny (32 yo) 34
4. Keats' RW 33
5. George Hay 31
6. Duke Keats 29
7. Harry Oliver 25
8. Frank Fredrickson 24
9. Frank Boucher 22
Keats is now 30 years old and falls out of the top 5 for the first time in his career. He still finishes ahead of Fredrickson, however.
From this season, we have an example of Keats' smarts. Apparently he had a nice dirty trick - In these days of long shifts, when Keats needed a rest, he would pick a fight with a member of the opposing team and get them both sent off:
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Summary: Keats was a star in all 5 seasons of WCHL play. In 1922, he absolutely dominated the league and may have been the best player in the world. In 1923, he was only outscored by one player (a teammate) because of injury, and the press indicates that his team was absolutely lost without him. By 1924, the WCHL had clearly surpassed the PCHA, and Keats finished 3rd in scoring in the league. The best PCHA players joined the WCHL in 1925, and Keats scored at a similar level to Mickey MacKay and Frank Fredrickson. In 1926, a 29 year old Keats finished 6th in the WCHL, which probably translates into 10th in the world, since the WCHL was probably a little stronger than the NHL by this point.
Keats was a notoriously physical player and well-known as an "on ice general" and difference maker this whole time. There is also evidence that he was a strong backchecker, as well. His only weakness was lack of footspeed (which was more evident later in his career in the NHL).
Duke Keats Part 3 of 3
The NHL years (1926-1929)
The WCHL folded after 1926 and NHL teams bid for their best players.
Former WCHL players dominated the NHL. In 1926-27, the first year that all the best talent was consolidated in the NHL, 6 of the top 10 and 10 of the top 20 scorers were all players who had played in the WCHL the previous season. In fact, that top 4 in Hart voting were all players who had spent 1925-26 in the WCHL. When I say the WCHL was probably a little stronger than the NHL in 1924-25 and 1925-26 (after it had absorbed the PCHA), this is what I mean.
Keats was 31 years old when he joined the NHL. He would be a top 10 scorer for the next two seasons.
1926-27 Consolidated NHL
1. Bill Cook*-NYR 37
2. Dick Irvin*-CBH 36
3. Howie Morenz*-MTL 32
4. Frank Fredrickson*-TOT 31
5. Babe Dye*-CBH 30
6. Frank Boucher*-NYR 28
Ace Bailey*-TOR 28
8. Billy Burch*-NYA 27
9. Harry Oliver *-BOS 24
Duke Keats*-TOT 24
1927-28 Consolidated NHL
1. Howie Morenz*-MTL 51
2. Aurele Joliat*-MTL 39
3. Frank Boucher*-NYR 35
George Hay*-DTC 35
5. Nels Stewart*-MTM 34
6. Art Gagne 30
7. Bun Cook*-NYR 28
8. Bill Carson-TOR 26
9. Frank Finnigan-OTS 25
10. Bill Cook*-NYR 24
Duke Keats*-TOT 24
I bolded the top 10 NHL scorers in the first two seasons after consolidation who played with Keats in the WCHL/WHL. It is more than half of them.
Duke Keats was still getting a great deal of praise in the press, even as an NHLer who was likely past his prime.
Seems Keats was still a determined backchecker late in his career:
During the 1926-27 season, Keats was traded with a no-name (Archie Biden) player for Frank Fredrickson and another no-name player (Harry Meeking). Here is a contrast of Keats and Fredrickson's styles:
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Lack of speed was Keats' weakness, at least as a player in his 30s. His stickhandling never left him:
Summary:Keats was a top 10 scorer in the consolidated NHL at the ages of 31 and 32, and while he was slow as dirt by this time, he still seems to have been considered a committed back checker.
Summary of Keats' career:
- Top 5 scorer in the NHA in 1916 and 1917 when the NHA was one of two professional leagues. (1917 is projected from where he was when he left to fight WW1)
- Missed 2 more full years due to WW1.
- Came back and dominated the Big-4 semi-amateur league and was offered a huge contract to come back East to the now-NHL (which he seems to have declined). The Big 4 contained several HHOFers in their 20s and was likely paying its stars under the table.
- Star in the professional WCHL for 5 straight seasons
- Might have been the best player in the world in 1921-22 - hard to tell, the league was clearly the weakest of the 3 professional leagues at this point, but Keats flat out owned it.
- Definitely the best forward in the WCHL in 1922-23 - the league was a bit weaker than the PCHA still.
- Top 3 scorer in the WCHL in 1923-24 (when it was much stronger than the PCHA), and again in 1924-25 when it had absorbed the PCHA.
- 6th in scoring in the WCHL in 1925-26 as a 30 year old.
- After the fall of the WCHL, Keats finished 9th in 10th in a consolidated NHL at the ages of 31 and 32.
Keats was a dominant player in the Big-4 and WCHL for most of his career. His accomplishments in more known leagues bookending this time - the NHA as a rookie and sophmore player (top 5 offensive player in the NHA both seasons) and the NHL as a 31 and 32 year old (top 10 offensive player in the consolidated NHL both season) - is pretty compelling evidence that Keats was probably a top 10 offensive player in the world in every season that he played hockey between 1915-16 and 1927-28. He may have been the best offensive player in the world in 1921-22, but it's hard to tell. We also have evidence that Keats was considered a strong back checker over the course of his career, beginning with his rookie season.
I think taking this in sum, MacKay should absolutely be in our top 4 this round as should Keats. I have Johnson and McGee joining them. But yes, I've been talked into having MacKay high this round.
