Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 12

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Another guy I have a bit of a weak spot for is Bruce Stuart, though he does come with the same type-ish caveats as been already mentioned in that he played on stacked teams and had a short career, though he was still that intriguing general/captain/leader type and always came up in big games, and a guy who could carry a bit more play than say a (Marty) Walsh or a (Ernie) Russell.
 
Westwick was probably more of a hockey player than say Pulford. Pulford was a great all-round athlete and a physical specimen, but I doubt he was much of a hockey player in terms of actual puck and stick skills, for what it's worth.

I can't agree with this one. I mean, I agree Westwick was probably a better stickhandler/shooter than Pulford... but there is more to hockey than that (otherwise Schremp and Kovaleve would be HHoFers). Pulford gets a lot of good press in the game summaries, contemporary all star teams, and what people who saw him play wrote about him after his career- in my opinion, substantially more than what I see with Westwick.

I'm not wild about small sample sizes, but read the 1905 Ottawa HC/Rat Portage series, games two and three in particular. Pulford impacted the game despite his flaws (which I think have been overstated as time progressed further and further away from his playing career, for what it is worth). I mean-

“Every man who played in this series of games deserves good words, but the one man to whom the victory of the Ottawa Hockey Club may be directly attributed is Harvey Pulford. Pulford’s work during these games has been out of the ordinary and although he has been none too choice in methods, he certainly has shown himself to be the best man that Ottawa ever sent out. His strength and endurance have been remarkable and his aptitude for adopting the system used by his opponents has been of invaluable service. It was practically due to Pulford’s play in Saturday’s game that Ottawa is now in possession of the Stanley Cup and three of the five goals scored by the champions were directly due to the initiative of Pulford. Pulford was more the leader than any man on his side and vied with Tom Phillips for the individual honors of the series of games which have been fought for the much-coveted trophy”

That is on a team with Frank McGee, Billy Gilmour, Alf Smith, and Rat Westwick. That is impact.
I guess it depends a bit on how you want to value or interpret the role of the rover as well. Ds (especially the point) and centres during this era weren't really two-way players until the 1910s/late 1910s, that's what made guys like (Hod) Stuart and Nighbor special.

I think you are underselling the offensive contributions of points and coverpoints a bit. Jack Campbell was an offensive force. Weldy Young and Mike Grant were as well. Dickie Boon. Frank Wall. Frank Patrick, Art Ross, and Walter Smaill all contributed offensively before 1910. Hod Stuart wasn't even the most offensively productive defender in his 1907 ECAHA season- Lester Patrick (although he saw time at rover), Brennan and J. Power all outproduced him.

Another guy I have a bit of a weak spot for is Bruce Stuart, though he does come with the same type-ish caveats as been already mentioned in that he played on stacked teams and had a short career, though he was still that intriguing general/captain/leader type and always came up in big games, and a guy who could carry a bit more play than say a (Marty) Walsh or a (Ernie) Russell.
I like Bruce Stuart as well. Not as much as you, apparently (I can be on board with Stuart over Russell, but I think Walsh was better), but I definitely think he should be discussed in this project.
 
“Every man who played in this series of games deserves good words, but the one man to whom the victory of the Ottawa Hockey Club may be directly attributed is Harvey Pulford. Pulford’s work during these games has been out of the ordinary and although he has been none too choice in methods, he certainly has shown himself to be the best man that Ottawa ever sent out. His strength and endurance have been remarkable and his aptitude for adopting the system used by his opponents has been of invaluable service. It was practically due to Pulford’s play in Saturday’s game that Ottawa is now in possession of the Stanley Cup and three of the five goals scored by the champions were directly due to the initiative of Pulford. Pulford was more the leader than any man on his side and vied with Tom Phillips for the individual honors of the series of games which have been fought for the much-coveted trophy”

That is on a team with Frank McGee, Billy Gilmour, Alf Smith, and Rat Westwick. That is impact.

I didn't say Pulford wasn't an impact player, I said he probably wasn't much of a hockey player in terms of puck and stick skills, and could probably have added skating. This is a very bulky paragraph but it doesn't really go into much details about his game. It sounds like a description of a Derian Hatcher type of player, style wise, if you read between the lines.

I think you are underselling the offensive contributions of points and coverpoints a bit. Jack Campbell was an offensive force. Weldy Young and Mike Grant were as well. Dickie Boon. Frank Wall. Frank Patrick, Art Ross, and Walter Smaill all contributed offensively before 1910. Hod Stuart wasn't even the most offensively productive defender in his 1907 ECAHA season- Lester Patrick (although he saw time at rover), Brennan and J. Power all outproduced him.

Points contributed some by lifting, which was a technique where you would essentially throw the puck the length of the rink with your blade, lacrosse style. Sometimes goals were scored this way. Of course there were points who could skate and such, but it didn't really come with the general job description. As for Pulford, I looked at his stats now, and there could obviously be some unrecorded games here and there, but it looks like in his first 10 years of hockey he scored 1 goal and had some sporadic assists.

I agree on Patrick and Ross and the overall role of the cover point, though as you pointed out Patrick transitioned up the ice position wise fairly early, and they were both a bit younger than Stuart. That season by Brennan confuses me a little bit, because he didn't score much in other years.
 
I didn't say Pulford wasn't an impact player, I said he probably wasn't much of a hockey player in terms of puck and stick skills, and could probably have added skating.

I think the disconnect then is that we have different view points on what makes a player great. To me, a player is great because of the impact he makes, not because he may skate better or stickhandle better (both of which I agree that Westwick very likely - almost certainly - did better than Pulford). Having tools is great, but they don't matter unless they are being used to benefit the team. Flipping it around, I don't think Pulford was a better player than Westwick because he hit more/harder- I think Pulford was better because he helped his team more (IMO, of course, we'll never know for certain).

This is a very bulky paragraph but it doesn't really go into much details about his game. It sounds like a description of a Derian Hatcher type of player, style wise, if you read between the lines.
It's not going into details because it is summing up the series. Here are some more quotes that better describe how he played that series-

“Thereafter Pulford was without exaggeration of exception the most brilliant of the fourteen men on the ice and two of his rushes down the ice were directly responsible for goals, McGee doing the scoring each time. Pulford will ever be remembered for his playing Saturday night. It was marvellous for the way in which he threw himself into the struggle when it looked as though Ottawa might lose. He though a big man has the speed and science of a forward and the head of a general. The Ottawa hockey club could not do better than place Pulford permanently at cover point when his agility and speed have scope. At point these talents must necessarily be lacking”

“Pulford did it with his cyclonic rushes”

Another Ottawa paper wrote: “While every member of the Ottawa seven did his part nobly in the great struggle and earned a share of the glory for victory, Harvey Pulford is the man who turned the tide in Ottawa’s favor. Pulford played the best game of his long career as a hockeyist and stamped himself over and over again as the most effective defence man in the game”

But the king of them all was Harvey Pulford. His play of thursday night was thought the best he ever put up, but he eclipsed all his previous achievements, either in football or hockey, but the grand work he performed in defence of the Stanley cup Saturday night. He was irresistible. Every time he went down the ice he either shot or passed in a favorable situation for a shot. Some of the shots resulting were cleverly stopped by one or both of the goal minders, Geroux and Brown, and some went wide, but three at least of Ottawa’s goals were due to Harvey’s gigantic rushes. The fifth especially, which clinched the victory, was on one of his stellar plays, he giving the puck to McGee’s tenacious care for a close in attack. He was so aggressive throughout the game that he did more work than any other man on the ice. His defence, in addition to being the finest he ever did, was often turned into the most dangerous kind of attack”

“Of the four defence men playing, Pulford was the hero of the evening. He played probably the best game he has ever done. While at point he had not so much chance of distinguishing himself, but in the second half he went to cover and he there gave a great exhibition of first class hockey. It was also pleasant to note his clean style. Pulford has unfortunately none too good a name even in Ottawa, but there was little in his play to object to in last evening’s game. He was vigorous, it is true, and his weight invariably was brought to bear, but it was legitimate and there were many rousing cheers as he stopped the dangerous flight of Phillips and Griffis and not only that but he as often as not turned defence into attack”

Hatcher could only dream of impacting a game like that.
Points contributed some by lifting, which was a technique where you would essentially throw the puck the length of the rink with your blade, lacrosse style. Sometimes goals were scored this way. Of course there were points who could skate and such, but it didn't really come with the general job description. As for Pulford, I looked at his stats now, and there could obviously be some unrecorded games here and there, but it looks like in his first 10 years of hockey he scored 1 goal and had some sporadic assists.
Sure, I am familiar with lifting- coverpoints lifted regularly as well early on as well. I also agree that the point position - especially in the 1890s - was one that didn't contribute much offensively. My main point of contention was that you implied defenders weren't two way players, which I think does some of the coverpoints of the time dirty.

Pulford was definitely a late bloomer offensively. I agree that he did not do much there in the 1890s, but, then again, neither did Westwick. Westwick's first season of offensive relevance was probably 1902 (maybe 1896 according to some sources, but according to the stats I have collected using multiple primary sources, he was pretty far down the table).

I agree on Patrick and Ross and the overall role of the cover point, though as you pointed out Patrick transitioned up the ice position wise fairly early, and they were both a bit younger than Stuart. That season by Brennan confuses me a little bit, because he didn't score much in other years.
The Patricks (when they played defense) and Ross were both points, if I am remembering correctly. Campbell, Young, and Grant were three coverpoints whose offensive exploits preceded those of Stuart. Dickie Boon, actually, was another cover that was a touch younger than Stuart as well and brought forth some offensive flair.
 
The Patricks (when they played defense) and Ross were both points, if I am remembering correctly.

Ross and the Patricks came up through the same Westmount team, so they couldn't all have been points while playing together at least. Patricks also played together in Nelson and Renfrew. Ross was also a CP I think two years with Brandon (Manitoba), he did however turn into a point fairly quickly with the Wanderers. Lester turned the other way and would become more of a rover type of player. But Frank was a point, yes.
 
Ross and the Patricks came up through the same Westmount team, so they couldn't all have been points while playing together at least. Patricks also played together in Nelson and Renfrew. Ross was also a CP I think two years with Brandon (Manitoba), he did however turn into a point fairly quickly with the Wanderers. Lester turned the other way and would become more of a rover type of player. But Frank was a point, yes.

I mean, a lot of players from that era played multiple positions. Ross, for example, mostly played rover in that 1905 CAHL season.

For what it is worth, here is what I have for the three players (mostly CAHL and ECAHA/ECHA)

1904: Frank Patrick was a RW

1905: Ross split time at cover and rover (more at rover), Lester Patrick split time at point and cover (more at cover), and Frank Patrick was a forward (LW)

1906: Ross is playing the West, so I don't have anything. I think you are right that he was at CP. Lester Patrick split time at CP and rover (mostly rover). Frank was with McGill.

1907: Ross is still in the West. Frank Patrick is still with McGill. Lester split time at point at rover (mostly point)

1908: Ross returns to the East as a point with the Wanderers. Frank Patrick plays for the Vics as a point. Lester is out West.

1909: Ross is a point with the Wanderers. The Patricks were in the West, but Lester was named to the All Star team selected by Harvey Pulford at point.

1910: I haven't gone through the who season, but a game lists Lester Patrick at point and Frank at LW with Renfrow.

They all bounced around positions, as was fairly common. I should have phrased what I said better, but they all played point at some point and contributed offensively while at the position prior to 1910.

Heck, I think Cyclone Taylor was a point with Portage Lakes in the IHL before he game to Ottawa (@ResilientBeast ?)- I have an all-star team from 1907 with Fred Taylor listed as point. And, since you brought him up earlier- Bruce Stuart was named to the same team at rover.
 
I like Bruce Stuart as well. Not as much as you, apparently (I can be on board with Stuart over Russell, but I think Walsh was better), but I definitely think he should be discussed in this project.

I dunno how high I would rank B. Stuart though, because I haven't attempted to do a list, but he would be on my list at least, if it's 80 names. As for this round, I would probably have him over half of those guys. I'll say though, just to clarify, that when I say I think someone's better at some particular aspect of the game, that's not necessarily the same thing as saying someone's a better overall player or had greater overall impact. Same goes for comparing playing styles, two players can share similarities in playing styles, but that doesn't mean they must have had the same or even similar impact as players.
 
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