seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Oh, that part is definitely not a concern. 136 players were named on the round 1 lists, and by the time you get to player #90, you're still looking at a guy with multiple votes in the 50s.
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 11
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
Purely defensively? I can buy it for pre-1895 (game reports are so scarce and un-detailed that it is hard to say for certain) and maybe pre-1900 (pre-peak-Pulford), but I think Pulford reached a higher level defensively post-1900 than Cameron ever did.
That said- Pulford has been on our list for a long time- and defense was his calling-card- so this isn't much of an argument against Cameron. In fact, I'm coming around to the idea that a couple of you all have mentioned here that he was the best player on those teams.
Me too. Coverpoint was definitely more of a prestige position than goalkeeper- it was probably the prestige position until the 1890s or so, based on nothing but the game summaries (and look- the earliest guys we've inducted so far have all been CPs). But Paton was quite likely the best goalie of his time, with the only other guy I can sort of name off the top of my head being Arnton.
I don't think Stewart belongs anywhere near the rest of those names. There is nothing in the game summaries that lead me to believe he was that level of player. He played a lot of games for the best team in the league and was heavily involved in league business during the early years, having been on the league council in 1887, the 1st Vice President in 1888, and the President in 1889 and 1890 (and then Wikipedia stops showing these details until 1893, when Stewart no longer appears to be involved). As I've written, I think Archie Hodgson was the other big name from those teams.
I think you can push that further back than 1893- they technically won the league every year from 1888-1894. But again, that only helps Cameron's case, as he was on those teams.
I'd also note that Cameron was primarily a coverpoint, not a point. He played point for over a season, but the bulk of his career was at cover, IMO. Stewart was the usual point.
I think Cameron's definitely on my list at this point. The other two... I'm not sure. Is Paton being the best of a weak crop worth adding? Is Routh being one of the line of nothing-but-offense forwards from Montreal HC worth adding? Look at Virtue in 1888- he had 10 points while the next closest teammate had 4. Look at McNaughton in 1890- 14 points while the next closest teammate had 5. Routh had leads of 12-10, 12-10, and 18-11. To me, Routh is just not distancing himself from his peers in the way that the other two did. Although, to be fair, Routh repeated his trick in 3 straight seasons, whereas Virtue dropped off fairly quickly and McNaughton only led the team for two years. I don't see much star power in the game summaries, or even in post-career retrospective articles. Honestly, the MAAA forward who gets discussed the most seems to be... yep, Archie Hodgson.
Yeah, I've thought about this as well. I'm not wild about quotas, but I think it is something we should keep in mind, as it is really easy to forget the position.
Looking at the HHoF is no real help- Paton isn't inducted (but no really early players are), while Hutton and Hern made it in the same year. I think Paton was probably the best relative to his peers, but we have quality of competition issues, right? Hutton was probably the best of his career at times, but he had some competition from Nicholson and Stocking early and then Moran and Nicholson later in his career (not taking the handful of games he played in 1909). Hern was definitely respected in his time- I think he was the highest paid goalie at some point, but don't quote me on that one- and was one of the first outright professionals the Wanderers signed when professionalism was officially permitted in the ECAHA. But, his career overlapped with LeSueur and Moran, both of whom we (rightfully, IMO) have already inducted. Is the (at best) third best goalie of his time better than what we think of Paton and/or Hutton? I have a hard time with that one.
For what it is worth, Russell's name was brought up fairly consistently when old-time reporters talked about the early days of hockey, at least into the 1950s (I think even the 1960s, but the 50s for sure). Granted, most, if not all, of these mentions are due to his scoring exploits, but it is still something, right? Scoring matters, or else we wouldn't have added a guy like Tommy Smith earlier or be talking about Haviland Routh now.
I think he should make the list. He was a big name on a great team in a strong era (for the time period).
I think we did this right- Walsh was, in my opinion, definitely the more impactful and historically significant player. I think his offense was stronger, and there is ample evidence of his commitment to defense. But that doesn't mean that Russell still doesn't belong.
Looking over all that I've written above- haha, it looks like I want to add everyone! I guess that leads into the discussion below-
ResilientBeast said:
I'm open to continuing on as well. There are a handful of ideas/questions I'd like to pose to the group before we officially begin the extension, but I'm going to wait to see if there is even enough popular support for continuing before I bring them up.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
This is also the list most similar to the Euros project where there is tons of information on these players that is hidden away in vaults of paid services with poor searching tools.
I expect in a couple years time with more research and better tools that we'll be making a second edition of this list which is fine. The most discussion most of these players get is being a 4th liner in the ATD which is not rigorous
I expect in a couple years time with more research and better tools that we'll be making a second edition of this list which is fine. The most discussion most of these players get is being a 4th liner in the ATD which is not rigorous
Quotes from the D.A.L. MacDonald articles (that I need to add to the player profile posts moving forward)-
Ernie Russell, 11 January 1934 Page 13
“One of the shining stars of the old Wanderers, a name to conjure with almost three decades ago, was Ernie Russell, rover and centre of the famous ‘Red Bands’
“Russell retired in 1909 to devote all his time to business, but was finally coaxed out of retirement to return for one season. It is significant that over a period of five seasons, the only year in which the Wanderers failed to annex the trophy, Russell was not with them”
My comment: whew, I don’t know what to do about this one. Russell did indeed retire in 1909, but the reason given here is rather speculative- I believe I saw his name involved in other endeavors that year, so just claiming it was for business is iffy to me. Also- Russell returned for more than just the 1910 season. He played 4 seasons for the Wanderers after his 1909 hiatus, including the 1911-12 NHA season, where he finished tied for 2nd in goals (well behind Skene Ronan).
“Ernie Russell was one of the forerunners of the Nels Stewart style for no more accurate shot from close ever was seen in hockey. He had an uncanny ability to loaf offside, particularly in his later days, and along with Bowie was the most feared sniper in the major league. Ernie was a high-hand [sic] shot”
The Jack Marshall piece (13 February 1934 Page 14) is mostly fluff/team accomplishments.
Odie Cleghorn, 20 February 1934 Page 13
“It will always be a matter of argument as to who was the greatest stick-handler that hockey has ever seen. The old-timers who can go back thirty years in their hockey memories might give the palm to Archie Hooper, captain of the Little Men of Iron, or to Russell Bowie, centre star of the Victorias, or to Harry Trihey, rover of the Shamrocks, all of whom were at their peak at the start of the present century, or to Art Ross, who rose to fame later with Wanderers, but J. Ogilvie Cleghorn, at present a referee in the National Hockey League, rates with the best. His playing career extended over a period of eighteen years, but when he was with Canadiens from 1918 until 1924, no more gifted stick-handler ever graced the ice”
“Relatively slow and pudgy, Odie could thread his way through the opposition with amazing ease, nursing the puck almost between his skates as he moved up the ice. He was a proponent of the short stick and along with his amazing stick-handling ability he had a shift that was deception itself. In the days when a hockey crowd delighted in exhibitions of stick-handling, Odie was the master showman. He could start behind his own cage and smoothly work his way through an entire team with a deftness that was dazzling, fake the goaltender out of position and score in an empty net”
Jack Darragh, 1 March 1934 Page 12
“The fact that he had previously developed a fine backhand shot had much to do with his success but in addition Darragh was an extremely polished performer and one of the best left wingers of his time”
Riley Hern, 8 March 1934 Page 14
“The little town of Stratford, Ont. has given two great stars to major professional hockey, for although the fame of Howie Morenz has somewhat dimmed that of another Stratford-born player, the name of Riley Hern was a great one in the sport, long before the Morenz comet blazed across the hockey sky”
“Riley Hern deserves a place among the immortals of the game. In his peak years with the Wanderers, he was one of the best goaltenders of his time. Paddy Moran, of Quebec, was probably the only netminder to challenge his claim of being the greatest of his day”
Harry Trihey, 13 March 1934 Page 13
“Harry Trihey captained the cup-winning team and played rover. He was undoubtedly one of the greatest stickhandlers of all time, and he possessed in addition a deadly shot. Though not a fast skater, he was an amazingly clever one and his stickhandling ability enabled him to work close in to the goal. Once in position for his famous flip shot, he was poison to any goaltender”
Rat Westwick, 24 March 1934 Page 14
“... Harry (Rat) Westwick was a star in his own right. He played rover on the three-time Stanley Cup holders and, though the goal-getting feats of some of his more illustrious teammates have dimmed the scoring fame of Westwick, he left behind a record no less notable in Canada’s two great national games”
“Westwick was tagged with his unique nickname because of his style of play. It was to be sure a not very complimentary tag to hand on any player but the nickname ‘the rat’ so aptly described Westwick’s method of scurrying over sticks and other hurdles encountered in his goalward dashes that the name stuck to him through his career. He was nimbleness itself on skates and as elusive as the rodent after which he was named. His tricky puck-handling and crafty, weaving style would make him an outstanding and much desired played [sic] in present-day hockey as he is rated the nonpareil among the all-time ‘raggers’”
Harry Hyland, 10 April 1934 Page 18
“Hyland was one of hockey’s greatest scorers in his heyday and at the same time was the best goal-getter in lacrosse for almost a decade. He played centre for Shamrocks in hockey but when he went to Wanderers he moved over to right wing. In lacrosse, he was a home fielder. He packed a terrific shot in both games”
Blair Russell, 14 April 1934 Page 14
“Blair Russell, chosen at left wing on the all-star aggregation, was second only to Bowie as a star of Victorias. He was probably the most useful member of the club for he was a tireless skater, a great back checker and a fine scorer in his own right. In commenting on his right to be placed on the all-star squad, the News’ story states that Russell was worth his weight in gold to Victorias”
Tom Paton, 8 January 1935 Page 12
“In the field of sport, Tom Paton’s achievements were no less noteworthy. He excelled at both hockey and lacrosse and, although the ice game has changed much since his day, old timers rate him as one of the finest goaltenders that ever lived”
According to the Allan Cameron article, “One of the best goaltenders he [Cameron] ever saw was his team-mate, Tom Paton. Paton played in the days when pads were unknown and no bigger stick than the one carried by his team-mates up forward. But he was a wizard, Allan Cameron says, at stopping shots from players, who even in those early days, could fire in the puck like a bullet”
Allan Cameron, 3 January 1935 Page 12
Nothing particularly significant in terms of Cameron, but there was the nice statement on Paton (see above).
Dolly Swift, 12 March 1935 Page
There is a fun anecdote about Swift spoiling Weldy Young’s attempts at ‘foxing’, or attempting to draw a penalty- Young was apparently “a past master at throwing a faint”, so Swift hid a bucket of water and then dumped it on Young when he tried his faiting act.
“Dolly Swift was one of the best players of his day and one with a most unusual style. He was probably the first to adopt the method of pushing the puck ahead of him in the manner of King Clancy and did most of his stickhandling using only one hand. He also made use of the rebound off the boards to pass an opponent and his odd style of play proved particularly confusing to those who had never encountered it before”
Graham Drinkwater, 6 March 1935 Page 12
“When the Stanley Cup passed into professional hands in 1908 and Sir Montagu Allan presented his trophy for competition among the pick of the Dominion’s amateur clubs, the first trustees chosen for custody of the cup were Sir Edward Clouston, Dr. H.B. Yates and Graham Drinkwater. Of these only the last named had been an outstanding hockey player as for 20 years his name had been identified with the best interests of the sport in the matter of clean play and who himself played on four Stanley Cup winning teams when this trophy stood for the Dominion amateur championship”
“Graham Drinkwater was one of the outstanding athletes of his day, dor, as well as being a star on the Victoria Hockey Club…”
“Graham Drinkwater had the distinction of being the first rushing defenceman in hockey and the circumstances concerning this aspect of his career are somewhat unusual inasmuch as he was actually a forward player with the Victorias. In 1896 when Winnipeg Vics, arch rivals of the Montreal Victorias, came east in quest of the Stanley Cup, the local seven in an effort to put its best possible lineup on the ice, moved Drinkwater back from the forward line to cover point. He had never played this position before but he was such an outstanding player and strong skater and checker that Vics believed that the move would strengthen the club”
Comment: It’s a nice story, but we all know by now that defenders rushed the puck well before Drinkwater did it in 1896.
Jack Adams, 15 January 1935 Page 14
“Jack Adams, present manager of the Detroit Red Wings and one of the scoring stars of a decade ago…”
“As a player and as a manager, Jack Adams has always fought to win…”
Punch Broadbent, 27 January 1934 Page 14
“He was one of the best wing players the game has ever seen for he knew how to cover his check like few men who have held down the job of patrolling the right boards”
“Punch was a great money player”
“Broadbent was a leech in covering his check and Forum fans can still recall the familiar sight of Punch riding up and down the right flank, almost bodily supported by some unhappy opponent, vainly attempting to shake him. Punch had probably the most useful set of elbows ever seen in the N.H.L.”
Ernie Russell, 11 January 1934 Page 13
“One of the shining stars of the old Wanderers, a name to conjure with almost three decades ago, was Ernie Russell, rover and centre of the famous ‘Red Bands’
“Russell retired in 1909 to devote all his time to business, but was finally coaxed out of retirement to return for one season. It is significant that over a period of five seasons, the only year in which the Wanderers failed to annex the trophy, Russell was not with them”
My comment: whew, I don’t know what to do about this one. Russell did indeed retire in 1909, but the reason given here is rather speculative- I believe I saw his name involved in other endeavors that year, so just claiming it was for business is iffy to me. Also- Russell returned for more than just the 1910 season. He played 4 seasons for the Wanderers after his 1909 hiatus, including the 1911-12 NHA season, where he finished tied for 2nd in goals (well behind Skene Ronan).
“Ernie Russell was one of the forerunners of the Nels Stewart style for no more accurate shot from close ever was seen in hockey. He had an uncanny ability to loaf offside, particularly in his later days, and along with Bowie was the most feared sniper in the major league. Ernie was a high-hand [sic] shot”
The Jack Marshall piece (13 February 1934 Page 14) is mostly fluff/team accomplishments.
Odie Cleghorn, 20 February 1934 Page 13
“It will always be a matter of argument as to who was the greatest stick-handler that hockey has ever seen. The old-timers who can go back thirty years in their hockey memories might give the palm to Archie Hooper, captain of the Little Men of Iron, or to Russell Bowie, centre star of the Victorias, or to Harry Trihey, rover of the Shamrocks, all of whom were at their peak at the start of the present century, or to Art Ross, who rose to fame later with Wanderers, but J. Ogilvie Cleghorn, at present a referee in the National Hockey League, rates with the best. His playing career extended over a period of eighteen years, but when he was with Canadiens from 1918 until 1924, no more gifted stick-handler ever graced the ice”
“Relatively slow and pudgy, Odie could thread his way through the opposition with amazing ease, nursing the puck almost between his skates as he moved up the ice. He was a proponent of the short stick and along with his amazing stick-handling ability he had a shift that was deception itself. In the days when a hockey crowd delighted in exhibitions of stick-handling, Odie was the master showman. He could start behind his own cage and smoothly work his way through an entire team with a deftness that was dazzling, fake the goaltender out of position and score in an empty net”
Jack Darragh, 1 March 1934 Page 12
“The fact that he had previously developed a fine backhand shot had much to do with his success but in addition Darragh was an extremely polished performer and one of the best left wingers of his time”
Riley Hern, 8 March 1934 Page 14
“The little town of Stratford, Ont. has given two great stars to major professional hockey, for although the fame of Howie Morenz has somewhat dimmed that of another Stratford-born player, the name of Riley Hern was a great one in the sport, long before the Morenz comet blazed across the hockey sky”
“Riley Hern deserves a place among the immortals of the game. In his peak years with the Wanderers, he was one of the best goaltenders of his time. Paddy Moran, of Quebec, was probably the only netminder to challenge his claim of being the greatest of his day”
Harry Trihey, 13 March 1934 Page 13
“Harry Trihey captained the cup-winning team and played rover. He was undoubtedly one of the greatest stickhandlers of all time, and he possessed in addition a deadly shot. Though not a fast skater, he was an amazingly clever one and his stickhandling ability enabled him to work close in to the goal. Once in position for his famous flip shot, he was poison to any goaltender”
Rat Westwick, 24 March 1934 Page 14
“... Harry (Rat) Westwick was a star in his own right. He played rover on the three-time Stanley Cup holders and, though the goal-getting feats of some of his more illustrious teammates have dimmed the scoring fame of Westwick, he left behind a record no less notable in Canada’s two great national games”
“Westwick was tagged with his unique nickname because of his style of play. It was to be sure a not very complimentary tag to hand on any player but the nickname ‘the rat’ so aptly described Westwick’s method of scurrying over sticks and other hurdles encountered in his goalward dashes that the name stuck to him through his career. He was nimbleness itself on skates and as elusive as the rodent after which he was named. His tricky puck-handling and crafty, weaving style would make him an outstanding and much desired played [sic] in present-day hockey as he is rated the nonpareil among the all-time ‘raggers’”
Harry Hyland, 10 April 1934 Page 18
“Hyland was one of hockey’s greatest scorers in his heyday and at the same time was the best goal-getter in lacrosse for almost a decade. He played centre for Shamrocks in hockey but when he went to Wanderers he moved over to right wing. In lacrosse, he was a home fielder. He packed a terrific shot in both games”
Blair Russell, 14 April 1934 Page 14
“Blair Russell, chosen at left wing on the all-star aggregation, was second only to Bowie as a star of Victorias. He was probably the most useful member of the club for he was a tireless skater, a great back checker and a fine scorer in his own right. In commenting on his right to be placed on the all-star squad, the News’ story states that Russell was worth his weight in gold to Victorias”
Tom Paton, 8 January 1935 Page 12
“In the field of sport, Tom Paton’s achievements were no less noteworthy. He excelled at both hockey and lacrosse and, although the ice game has changed much since his day, old timers rate him as one of the finest goaltenders that ever lived”
According to the Allan Cameron article, “One of the best goaltenders he [Cameron] ever saw was his team-mate, Tom Paton. Paton played in the days when pads were unknown and no bigger stick than the one carried by his team-mates up forward. But he was a wizard, Allan Cameron says, at stopping shots from players, who even in those early days, could fire in the puck like a bullet”
Allan Cameron, 3 January 1935 Page 12
Nothing particularly significant in terms of Cameron, but there was the nice statement on Paton (see above).
Dolly Swift, 12 March 1935 Page
There is a fun anecdote about Swift spoiling Weldy Young’s attempts at ‘foxing’, or attempting to draw a penalty- Young was apparently “a past master at throwing a faint”, so Swift hid a bucket of water and then dumped it on Young when he tried his faiting act.
“Dolly Swift was one of the best players of his day and one with a most unusual style. He was probably the first to adopt the method of pushing the puck ahead of him in the manner of King Clancy and did most of his stickhandling using only one hand. He also made use of the rebound off the boards to pass an opponent and his odd style of play proved particularly confusing to those who had never encountered it before”
Graham Drinkwater, 6 March 1935 Page 12
“When the Stanley Cup passed into professional hands in 1908 and Sir Montagu Allan presented his trophy for competition among the pick of the Dominion’s amateur clubs, the first trustees chosen for custody of the cup were Sir Edward Clouston, Dr. H.B. Yates and Graham Drinkwater. Of these only the last named had been an outstanding hockey player as for 20 years his name had been identified with the best interests of the sport in the matter of clean play and who himself played on four Stanley Cup winning teams when this trophy stood for the Dominion amateur championship”
“Graham Drinkwater was one of the outstanding athletes of his day, dor, as well as being a star on the Victoria Hockey Club…”
“Graham Drinkwater had the distinction of being the first rushing defenceman in hockey and the circumstances concerning this aspect of his career are somewhat unusual inasmuch as he was actually a forward player with the Victorias. In 1896 when Winnipeg Vics, arch rivals of the Montreal Victorias, came east in quest of the Stanley Cup, the local seven in an effort to put its best possible lineup on the ice, moved Drinkwater back from the forward line to cover point. He had never played this position before but he was such an outstanding player and strong skater and checker that Vics believed that the move would strengthen the club”
Comment: It’s a nice story, but we all know by now that defenders rushed the puck well before Drinkwater did it in 1896.
Jack Adams, 15 January 1935 Page 14
“Jack Adams, present manager of the Detroit Red Wings and one of the scoring stars of a decade ago…”
“As a player and as a manager, Jack Adams has always fought to win…”
Punch Broadbent, 27 January 1934 Page 14
“He was one of the best wing players the game has ever seen for he knew how to cover his check like few men who have held down the job of patrolling the right boards”
“Punch was a great money player”
“Broadbent was a leech in covering his check and Forum fans can still recall the familiar sight of Punch riding up and down the right flank, almost bodily supported by some unhappy opponent, vainly attempting to shake him. Punch had probably the most useful set of elbows ever seen in the N.H.L.”
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I'm going through all my hockey books and there's such a lack of information on Cameron, Paton, and Swift. Nothing of substance in Klondikers.
Their respective bios from Ultimate Hockey
Allan Cameron
"Allen Cameron entered organized hockey via the Montreal Crystals before 1885. He toiled with the C's until 1887, when the MAAA snapped him up. The mustachioed "toque bleu tromper" would flower into a top-flight cover-point, captaining the famous Winged Wheelers until his retirement in 1895.
Year after year, the MAAA iced players such as Tom Paton, Jack Findlay, "Bunnie" Lowe, and Archie McNaughton. Add to this list the defence pairing of Cameron and James Stewart and the MAAA were not to be taken lightly. While Stewart played a steady, stay-at-home style, Cameron was the very engine of the Wheeler attack. He was soon the talk of the circuit. According to newsmen, "nothing escaped Cameron's eyes". His defensive abilities were every bit as sharp as Stewart's and possibly the finest in the AHAC."
Tom Paton
"Tom Paton was one of the founding members of the MAAA, an organization born when the Montreal Lacrosse and Snowshoe clubs merged. Paton, or "Tommy" as fans knew him, put in 12 seasons on the Montreal Lacrosse Club and was apparently one of the "trickiest "players in the Dominion. He was a stellar goalkeeper, putting together solid efforts from 1887 through the 1894 season. The short time he did spend spaying for the MAAA was spent well. He was, simply put, a gem.
In the 1899 final match, the Triple-A bashed the Montreal Victorias 6-1, thanks in large part to Paton's work between the pipes. According to records, he single-handedly kept the MAAA in the game long enough to ensure the victory. Paton was one of the finest goalies of the pre-NHL era."
Haviland Routh
"Sniper. Speedster. Shooter. These three words best describe the city of Montreal's first great goal-getter, Haviland Routh. The thickly-muscled, mustachioed MAAAA winger was the blazing force behind Winged Wheeler Cup victories in 1893 and 1894. He was the AHAC's leading scorer in 1893 and again in 1895.
Although Routh was capable of staking or stick-handling his way through an enemy line, he was apparently one of the least conscientious defensive players of his time. He was always out for the goal, leaving the less glamorous pursuits to others. In modern terms, he was comparable in this sense to a young Brett Hull"
Dolly Swift
"Arthur "Dolly" Swift played for the Montreal Victorias as far back as 1884. He had a most unnatural style - he carried the puck ahead of him, stick-handling with one hand - which was apparently quite distracting to play against. In any case, he was one of the more intelligent, innovative hockey players of hockey's pre-modern era.
Swift was one half of the first bona fide player rivalry in hockey, the other half being Weldy Young. Swift and Young clashed whenever Quebec and Ottawa met, their most famous get-together coming during a February 23, 1895, match in l'Ancien Capital. On this night the two men put on a most barbaric display that resulted in the Quebec club's suspension for the rest of the season and playoffs.
Although Swift would often be used on the defence, he was a natural rover."
The UH 1890s AS team
P - Allan Cameron
CP - Mike Grant
R - Dolly Swift
LW - Dan Bain
C - Harry Trihey
RW - Haviland Routh
G - Tom Paton
And the relevant awards (I know these come with a huge astericks)
Cameron
Norris - 1887, 1889, 1890, 1891
Hart - 1891
Paton
Vezina - 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 1893
Hart - 1889
Routh
Art Ross - 1893, 1895
Hart - 1893
Swift
Art Ross - 1887, 1894(?)
Hart - 1894
Reading over this entire chapter again, I am much more impressed with Cameron. I didn't realize Routh was that weak defensively. And Swift is seen as a massive legend.
I could honestly include all of Swift, Cameron, Routh, and Paton this round.
Their respective bios from Ultimate Hockey
Allan Cameron
"Allen Cameron entered organized hockey via the Montreal Crystals before 1885. He toiled with the C's until 1887, when the MAAA snapped him up. The mustachioed "toque bleu tromper" would flower into a top-flight cover-point, captaining the famous Winged Wheelers until his retirement in 1895.
Year after year, the MAAA iced players such as Tom Paton, Jack Findlay, "Bunnie" Lowe, and Archie McNaughton. Add to this list the defence pairing of Cameron and James Stewart and the MAAA were not to be taken lightly. While Stewart played a steady, stay-at-home style, Cameron was the very engine of the Wheeler attack. He was soon the talk of the circuit. According to newsmen, "nothing escaped Cameron's eyes". His defensive abilities were every bit as sharp as Stewart's and possibly the finest in the AHAC."
Tom Paton
"Tom Paton was one of the founding members of the MAAA, an organization born when the Montreal Lacrosse and Snowshoe clubs merged. Paton, or "Tommy" as fans knew him, put in 12 seasons on the Montreal Lacrosse Club and was apparently one of the "trickiest "players in the Dominion. He was a stellar goalkeeper, putting together solid efforts from 1887 through the 1894 season. The short time he did spend spaying for the MAAA was spent well. He was, simply put, a gem.
In the 1899 final match, the Triple-A bashed the Montreal Victorias 6-1, thanks in large part to Paton's work between the pipes. According to records, he single-handedly kept the MAAA in the game long enough to ensure the victory. Paton was one of the finest goalies of the pre-NHL era."
Haviland Routh
"Sniper. Speedster. Shooter. These three words best describe the city of Montreal's first great goal-getter, Haviland Routh. The thickly-muscled, mustachioed MAAAA winger was the blazing force behind Winged Wheeler Cup victories in 1893 and 1894. He was the AHAC's leading scorer in 1893 and again in 1895.
Although Routh was capable of staking or stick-handling his way through an enemy line, he was apparently one of the least conscientious defensive players of his time. He was always out for the goal, leaving the less glamorous pursuits to others. In modern terms, he was comparable in this sense to a young Brett Hull"
Dolly Swift
"Arthur "Dolly" Swift played for the Montreal Victorias as far back as 1884. He had a most unnatural style - he carried the puck ahead of him, stick-handling with one hand - which was apparently quite distracting to play against. In any case, he was one of the more intelligent, innovative hockey players of hockey's pre-modern era.
Swift was one half of the first bona fide player rivalry in hockey, the other half being Weldy Young. Swift and Young clashed whenever Quebec and Ottawa met, their most famous get-together coming during a February 23, 1895, match in l'Ancien Capital. On this night the two men put on a most barbaric display that resulted in the Quebec club's suspension for the rest of the season and playoffs.
Although Swift would often be used on the defence, he was a natural rover."
The UH 1890s AS team
P - Allan Cameron
CP - Mike Grant
R - Dolly Swift
LW - Dan Bain
C - Harry Trihey
RW - Haviland Routh
G - Tom Paton
And the relevant awards (I know these come with a huge astericks)
Cameron
Norris - 1887, 1889, 1890, 1891
Hart - 1891
Paton
Vezina - 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 1893
Hart - 1889
Routh
Art Ross - 1893, 1895
Hart - 1893
Swift
Art Ross - 1887, 1894(?)
Hart - 1894
Reading over this entire chapter again, I am much more impressed with Cameron. I didn't realize Routh was that weak defensively. And Swift is seen as a massive legend.
I could honestly include all of Swift, Cameron, Routh, and Paton this round.
I have some questions about UH's sourcing for a lot of this. For starters-
I don't believe Quebec HC was suspended for the rest of the season and the playoffs (I'm wrong- see edit)- I have them playing a game on 27 February of that year (after this supposed suspension) against the Montreal Crystals; the Crystals won, 4-3. There were no playoffs in 1895, as the Montreal Victorias won the league outright with a 6-2 record (three teams tied for second with 4-4 records, and Quebec HC was actually in last at 2-6).
I have Herb Collins as the Montreal HC goalie in all 8 games in 1894; Paton's last season looks to have been 1893. He was also not MAAA's primary goalie in 1887- I have Hutchinson in goal for both the M.A.A.A. games I have for the year, with Paton entering the game against the Montreal Victorias on 21 January partway through.
Haviland Routh being poor defensively is interesting to me, as I don't recall seeing anything one way or another to give any real idea of his ability there. I'm also intrigued by him being at RW, as I don't have anything about that, either. I'd love to know what sources they are using there, so I can update my files/notes.
EDIT: I was wrong, my bad everyone. I was curious, so I went poking around my 1895 files a bit- officially, both the Crystals and Quebec HC only played 7 games, as the game they played on 2 February 1895 (a 2-1 Crystals victory) was nullified after a Quebec HC protest; I included this as a game played for my tracking, as a complete game was indeed played, but an official record should (and does) have these two teams only playing 7 games. Additionally, it looks like Quebec HC was indeed suspended; however, Quebec HC did in fact play a game after the 23 February game against Ottawa HC (apparently it took a while to decide to suspend them), so, really, only one game was cancelled, a game that would have been ultimately meaningless in the final standings. Details for this 27 February game can be found in The Gazette, 28 February 1895 page 8 and The Montreal Star, 28 February 1895 page 5. As mentioned, there were no playoffs (and Quebec would not have qualified even if there were) that year, as the Montreal Victorias had the best record that year and won the championship outright (playoffs only existed for cases where teams at the top had identical records- 1894 being a good example).
EDIT 2: According to a Gazette article about the suspension, it looks like action was taken against Quebec HC as a result of the Quebec's spectator's behavior, not due to any barbarity on the part of the players. In fact, Young "said he had no complaints to make against the players, but he had about barbarian spectators, and the general consensus of the council's opinion was that, under the circumstances, it was not fair to ask a man to referee a hockey match in Quebec".
I don't believe Quebec HC was suspended for the rest of the season and the playoffs (I'm wrong- see edit)- I have them playing a game on 27 February of that year (after this supposed suspension) against the Montreal Crystals; the Crystals won, 4-3. There were no playoffs in 1895, as the Montreal Victorias won the league outright with a 6-2 record (three teams tied for second with 4-4 records, and Quebec HC was actually in last at 2-6).
I have Herb Collins as the Montreal HC goalie in all 8 games in 1894; Paton's last season looks to have been 1893. He was also not MAAA's primary goalie in 1887- I have Hutchinson in goal for both the M.A.A.A. games I have for the year, with Paton entering the game against the Montreal Victorias on 21 January partway through.
Haviland Routh being poor defensively is interesting to me, as I don't recall seeing anything one way or another to give any real idea of his ability there. I'm also intrigued by him being at RW, as I don't have anything about that, either. I'd love to know what sources they are using there, so I can update my files/notes.
EDIT: I was wrong, my bad everyone. I was curious, so I went poking around my 1895 files a bit- officially, both the Crystals and Quebec HC only played 7 games, as the game they played on 2 February 1895 (a 2-1 Crystals victory) was nullified after a Quebec HC protest; I included this as a game played for my tracking, as a complete game was indeed played, but an official record should (and does) have these two teams only playing 7 games. Additionally, it looks like Quebec HC was indeed suspended; however, Quebec HC did in fact play a game after the 23 February game against Ottawa HC (apparently it took a while to decide to suspend them), so, really, only one game was cancelled, a game that would have been ultimately meaningless in the final standings. Details for this 27 February game can be found in The Gazette, 28 February 1895 page 8 and The Montreal Star, 28 February 1895 page 5. As mentioned, there were no playoffs (and Quebec would not have qualified even if there were) that year, as the Montreal Victorias had the best record that year and won the championship outright (playoffs only existed for cases where teams at the top had identical records- 1894 being a good example).
EDIT 2: According to a Gazette article about the suspension, it looks like action was taken against Quebec HC as a result of the Quebec's spectator's behavior, not due to any barbarity on the part of the players. In fact, Young "said he had no complaints to make against the players, but he had about barbarian spectators, and the general consensus of the council's opinion was that, under the circumstances, it was not fair to ask a man to referee a hockey match in Quebec".
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Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Allan 'Scotty' Davidson
Since the Big Scot only played two seasons this won't be a very long post. I wanted to look closer at those two years because Davidson's reputation after his death is just incredible - he was voted the top RW in history in that MacLean's 1925 poll on the basis of like forty pro games. Also, his character is just unimpeachable. I found that clipping in my 1914 Cup final post about him being a 'bad actor' who 'resented the discipline of training', and I did find another article that mentioned Scotty being a 'hard man to keep in condition' as well as one that labelled him 'one of the hardest men to handle in hockey'... but that's it. I couldn't find anything else on that front. Every other drop of ink spilled on Davidson's character paints a picture of just an outstanding all-around man, even before heading to Europe. He was an extremely popular fellow off the ice with a large circle of friends, who was often noted for his leadership and bravery.
Important note - like with my Carson Cooper post, newspapers.com doesn't have many Toronto papers from this time period. Most of what I found was from Ottawa, Montreal, and Kingston sources.
Scotty started off playing a lot of point before turning pro, and when he signed with Toronto in 1912 that's where he began. The results that season honestly weren't great, with the Torontos suffering a very poor start to the year. Papers make frequent note of how young and inexperienced Toronto's defense was that season, with 21 year old Davidson and 22 year old Cameron manning the blueline. After a bad loss to the Tecumsehs in mid-January, manager Jack Marshall actually felt compelled to come out of retirement to shore up the defense - he replaced Davidson at point and Scotty went up to RW to replace Cully Wilson, where he played for the remainder of his brief career. The Torontos did better after that, but didn't come close to challenging Quebec for the league title. Davidson was described the following year as having lacked conditioning all throughout his rookie season, but still managed to finish in the top 10 in scoring.
1913-14 is much more interesting. I said earlier in this thread that I thought Davidson was definitely behind Jack Walker and Harry Cameron on those Blueshirt teams, but after going through that entire season I think that's selling Scotty short. I'd have him above Cameron and probably just below Walker. Here's a few choice quotes:
^ I looked into how $1200 compared to other salaries in the NHA in the 12-13 season to help gauge how he was viewed heading into his second year. With the caveat that there's some murkiness in most articles about player salaries, as there can be conflicting information across sources, I found the following:
Skene Ronan - $1500
Jack Darragh - $1500
Percy LeSueuer - $1000
Clint Benedict - $800
Punch Broadbent - $500
Jack Laviolette - one of the 'very few' players who will make over $1000
Didier Pitre - Went from $3000 (!) to $800 due to management deeming him a 'disappointment'
Eddie Gerard - Offered $1600 to turn pro
So, Davidson being 'thought' to have signed for $1200 is very good for a sophomore.
There are a few all-star teams picked by papers from that season. Two of them are in this post in the historical all-star and award voting thread. A Toronto paper had him as the first team RW, while a Montreal paper had him behind Darragh and Walker. I also found this:
As well as this team sent in by an observer:
The appearance of Roy McGiffin is surprising, as I found at least a few mentions that explicitly stated McGiffin was a liability to his team because of his lack of discipline. These also look very nice for Jack Darragh, who is all over the all-star voting, and not so good for Harry Hyland, who hardly shows up in voting despite nearly leading the league in scoring.
After winning the Cup, in a series where Davidson had little impact because of being struck with influenza, Scotty was one of the first pro hockey players to enlist in the war. Toronto underperformed without him, and the papers noticed:
^ This despite not playing hockey this season (or even being in Canada at all)
After his tragic death in combat, even his place in the 2nd Battalion would be hard to fill:
^ You see a lot of clippings like this after his death. Davidson is portrayed as a true 'leader of men' type, which goes toward explaining how he was made captain of the Torontos at just 22. Here's one that I liked:
So what are my thoughts on Davidson now after taking a closer look? While there's no question to me that the legend outgrew the player after his death, I'm a lot more sold that he really was seen as one of the best players in Canada before heading off to war. I get the impression that if hockey people were to be asked who the 'perfect hockey player' in 1914 was, Scotty Davidson would garner the most responses, even if I believe Jack Walker was the best player on that team. Davidson was the total package of size, speed, skill, backchecking, and character (despite the strange, occasional mentions of him potentially being a headcase). It's easy to see why he was viewed so favourably for so long after his death.
That being said... we're talking about a player who's got one great season. 12-13 didn't do much for me, and that's half of his entire pro career! I have absolutely no idea how you'd go about comparing him to the field based on how short his career is. I came into this round thinking he was a guy I'd leave off the ballot and not think twice about it, and I still definitely won't include him this round, but... at least I've thought twice about it now. There might be room for him somewhere on the list down the line, especially if we do go to 80 names.
Since the Big Scot only played two seasons this won't be a very long post. I wanted to look closer at those two years because Davidson's reputation after his death is just incredible - he was voted the top RW in history in that MacLean's 1925 poll on the basis of like forty pro games. Also, his character is just unimpeachable. I found that clipping in my 1914 Cup final post about him being a 'bad actor' who 'resented the discipline of training', and I did find another article that mentioned Scotty being a 'hard man to keep in condition' as well as one that labelled him 'one of the hardest men to handle in hockey'... but that's it. I couldn't find anything else on that front. Every other drop of ink spilled on Davidson's character paints a picture of just an outstanding all-around man, even before heading to Europe. He was an extremely popular fellow off the ice with a large circle of friends, who was often noted for his leadership and bravery.
Important note - like with my Carson Cooper post, newspapers.com doesn't have many Toronto papers from this time period. Most of what I found was from Ottawa, Montreal, and Kingston sources.
Scotty started off playing a lot of point before turning pro, and when he signed with Toronto in 1912 that's where he began. The results that season honestly weren't great, with the Torontos suffering a very poor start to the year. Papers make frequent note of how young and inexperienced Toronto's defense was that season, with 21 year old Davidson and 22 year old Cameron manning the blueline. After a bad loss to the Tecumsehs in mid-January, manager Jack Marshall actually felt compelled to come out of retirement to shore up the defense - he replaced Davidson at point and Scotty went up to RW to replace Cully Wilson, where he played for the remainder of his brief career. The Torontos did better after that, but didn't come close to challenging Quebec for the league title. Davidson was described the following year as having lacked conditioning all throughout his rookie season, but still managed to finish in the top 10 in scoring.
1913-14 is much more interesting. I said earlier in this thread that I thought Davidson was definitely behind Jack Walker and Harry Cameron on those Blueshirt teams, but after going through that entire season I think that's selling Scotty short. I'd have him above Cameron and probably just below Walker. Here's a few choice quotes:
The Kingston Daily Standard - 13 September 1913 said:
^ I looked into how $1200 compared to other salaries in the NHA in the 12-13 season to help gauge how he was viewed heading into his second year. With the caveat that there's some murkiness in most articles about player salaries, as there can be conflicting information across sources, I found the following:
Skene Ronan - $1500
Jack Darragh - $1500
Percy LeSueuer - $1000
Clint Benedict - $800
Punch Broadbent - $500
Jack Laviolette - one of the 'very few' players who will make over $1000
Didier Pitre - Went from $3000 (!) to $800 due to management deeming him a 'disappointment'
Eddie Gerard - Offered $1600 to turn pro
So, Davidson being 'thought' to have signed for $1200 is very good for a sophomore.
The Kingston Daily Standard - 22 January 1914 said:
The Ottawa Citizen - 24 January 1914 said:
The Gazette - 26 January 1914 said:
The Ottawa Citizen - 27 January 1914 said:
The Calgary Herald - 20 February 1914 said:
There are a few all-star teams picked by papers from that season. Two of them are in this post in the historical all-star and award voting thread. A Toronto paper had him as the first team RW, while a Montreal paper had him behind Darragh and Walker. I also found this:
The Ottawa Journal - 3 March 1914 said:
As well as this team sent in by an observer:
The Ottawa Citizen - 6 March 1914 said:
The appearance of Roy McGiffin is surprising, as I found at least a few mentions that explicitly stated McGiffin was a liability to his team because of his lack of discipline. These also look very nice for Jack Darragh, who is all over the all-star voting, and not so good for Harry Hyland, who hardly shows up in voting despite nearly leading the league in scoring.
After winning the Cup, in a series where Davidson had little impact because of being struck with influenza, Scotty was one of the first pro hockey players to enlist in the war. Toronto underperformed without him, and the papers noticed:
The Sault Star - 15 September 1914 said:
The Ottawa Citizen - 1 December 1914 said:
^ This despite not playing hockey this season (or even being in Canada at all)
The Edmonton Bulletin - 7 December 1914 said:
The Calgary Herald - 15 December 1914 said:
The Victoria Daily Times - 21 December 1914 said:
The Ottawa Journal - 4 January 1915 said:
The Vancouver Daily World - 4 January 1915 said:
The Ottawa Journal - 6 January 1915 said:
After his tragic death in combat, even his place in the 2nd Battalion would be hard to fill:
The Kingston Daily Standard - 8 July 1915 said:
^ You see a lot of clippings like this after his death. Davidson is portrayed as a true 'leader of men' type, which goes toward explaining how he was made captain of the Torontos at just 22. Here's one that I liked:
The Kingston Whig Standard - 25 June 1915 said:
So what are my thoughts on Davidson now after taking a closer look? While there's no question to me that the legend outgrew the player after his death, I'm a lot more sold that he really was seen as one of the best players in Canada before heading off to war. I get the impression that if hockey people were to be asked who the 'perfect hockey player' in 1914 was, Scotty Davidson would garner the most responses, even if I believe Jack Walker was the best player on that team. Davidson was the total package of size, speed, skill, backchecking, and character (despite the strange, occasional mentions of him potentially being a headcase). It's easy to see why he was viewed so favourably for so long after his death.
That being said... we're talking about a player who's got one great season. 12-13 didn't do much for me, and that's half of his entire pro career! I have absolutely no idea how you'd go about comparing him to the field based on how short his career is. I came into this round thinking he was a guy I'd leave off the ballot and not think twice about it, and I still definitely won't include him this round, but... at least I've thought twice about it now. There might be room for him somewhere on the list down the line, especially if we do go to 80 names.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I think the support is there. Please go ahead and pose the questions so we can set parameters as we approach what is supposed to otherwise be our last round.
Right on.
So, first- I think it would be a good idea to allow people to resubmit extended lists if they want; everyone has the option to submit a new list of 20 (or more/less depending on how long we want to extend the project) names for this stage of the project. A large part of this is selfishness on my part- I can't go back and fix some of the rankings that I submitted earlier (I have truly learned a lot over these discussion rounds), but I would like the ability to provide a more up-to-date picture of my rankings, and I would hazard a guess that I am not the only one that feels this way. For example, I learned a lot about some of the old Winnipeg players, (Merritt and Flett in particular), and I would almost certainly have them on a top-80 list at this point.
If people don't want or don't have the time to resubmit a list, then their initial list is taken, no harm, no foul- any current voter/participant is automatically in the extension whether they submit a new list or not.
Secondly- and I do believe that this would work best if my previous proposal is accepted- I think we should open this up to people who didn't participate in the top 60. There were several people who expressed interest in the project who were unable to participate due to time constraints/personal life happenings, and I wonder if they wouldn't be able to join in for that (post) final stretch. All they would have to do is throw together a list for screening and they are good to go.
I'd also push for a week/two-week research period between the top-60 and the beginning of the extension, but I recognize that we risk losing momentum with that one. While I feel very strongly about the prior two ideas, this one is not something I'd argue too much over.
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
My only concern with going post 60 is a lack of voters. We started with 16 and are now down to 12. Discussion has died off. If we extend we risk falling down to 9 or 10 voters.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I agree, but the ones we've lost so far weren't reading and contributing anyway. The ones we have left have been doing all the heavy lifting from the start.
This is my biggest concern as well (and part of the reason I think it is a good idea to search for new participants if we continue). To make this relatively easy for everyone-
Please add a line along with your ballot for this round on if you are or are not interested in continuing past 60. We'll announce how many interested participants there are when we release the results of the voting.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I've read all the posts about Davidson and I'm lost on where to put him. I believe we're talking about the shortest career of any player ever up for discussion in any project ever done by this forum.
His reputation far outweighs anything I can see from the contemporary reports or stats. But people 10 years after the fact viewed him with ultimate esteem. I just don't know what to make of it.
His reputation far outweighs anything I can see from the contemporary reports or stats. But people 10 years after the fact viewed him with ultimate esteem. I just don't know what to make of it.
Voting for Round 2, Vote 11 is now open. Please continue to send in your ballots using the same PM chain that you have been using throughout the project. As mentioned above, please add a line along with your ballot on if you are or are not interested in continuing the project past 60. We'll announce how many interested participants there are when we release the results of the voting.
@Dr John Carlson 's work has moved Davidson up on my list- I'm not sure if I'll rank him this round, but he's definitely in consideration. We have two other short-career guys here- Trihey and Routh. Of the three, Davidson's scoring looks to be the weakest. However, of the three, Davidson's all-around game is the strongest (at least, with the information available). Davidson's star power is easily the greatest, even based on the quotes pulled from before his death.
I definitely agree that Davidson's legend grew after his death, but there looks to have been a foundation as to why that legend grew.
I definitely agree that Davidson's legend grew after his death, but there looks to have been a foundation as to why that legend grew.
Black Gold Extractor
Registered User
- May 4, 2010
- 3,092
- 4,967
I'm all for extending the project, perhaps initially to 70, and then see where to go from there. Perhaps we shouldn't even need a nice round number for a project end. After all, we haven't been "inducting" exactly 5 players in each round due to large/small gaps.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that 60 isn't enough. For example, if it came down to say, Carson Cooper versus Dolly Swift for the last spot, it would seem weird to exclude Swift due to his historic importance as the earliest high-end scorer... but it would also seem weird to exclude Cooper since I'm fairly certain that Cooper was the better player (even if the gap isn't huge).
Regardless, it's pretty clear that 60 isn't enough. For example, if it came down to say, Carson Cooper versus Dolly Swift for the last spot, it would seem weird to exclude Swift due to his historic importance as the earliest high-end scorer... but it would also seem weird to exclude Cooper since I'm fairly certain that Cooper was the better player (even if the gap isn't huge).
If you have not already done so, please submit your ballot for this round by 9:00 PM EST, and include a note/line on whether you would be interested in extending the project.
I will begin sending reminder PMs around 5:00 PM, but I would appreciate it if I don't have to send very many. Thanks!
I will begin sending reminder PMs around 5:00 PM, but I would appreciate it if I don't have to send very many. Thanks!
