Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

[ted2019]

Bure moves up!

But defense dominates.

Can't win without defense. The current Oilers have shown us that.

 

[ted2019]

For those who have sent me messages about my well being, thank you as they have meant a lot. My Doc has added a booster to my medicine and hopefully within a week or so I'll be back to normal. I will try and be more active this round.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Stewart did eat into a lot of the RD votes too, taking half of Seibert’s winning total.

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 10; Flash Hollett, Bos 6; Jack Stewart, Det 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Dit Clapper, Bos 1
LEFT D: Jack Stewart, Det 15; Babe Pratt, Tor 3; Flash Hollett, Bos 3; Jack Crawford, Bos 3; Earl Seibert, Chi 2

And as we looked at in the last round, because Norris voting and All-Star voting is not necessarily analogous, Stewart could theoretically have been ranked 1st in a 5-3-1 or 10-7-5-3-1 vote in 1948 as there was just a 2-point gap between him and Quackenbush on a 5-5-3-3-1-1 vote.

In a 5-3-1 or a 10-7-5-3-1 vote (which is the comparison point for Norris voting), Quackenbush and Stewart would have been close: 31-45 points vs. 27-40 points or 12-21 points vs. 9-17 points.

1947 had a 3-3-2-2-1-1 system, and it actually played out similarly to 1948 where the results of a 5-3-1 or 10-7-5-3-1 Norris system cannot be predicted.

10-7-5-3-1

Reardon: (4x 1st) 28-40 pts, (3x 3rd) 0-3 pts
Bouchard: (2x 1st) 14-20 pts, (3x 2nd) 9-15 pts
Stewart: (2x 1st) 14-20 pts, (2x 2nd) 6-10 pts, (1x 3rd) 0-1 pts
Quackenbush: (2x 1st) 14-20 pts, (2x 2nd) 6-10 pts, (1x 3rd) 0-1 pts

It’s possible that any of the 4 would have come out ahead in a 10-7-5-3-1 ballot system.

Stewart could have a record of 1st (1943), 1st (1947), 1st (1948), 2nd (1949), and 4th (1946) - with a top-5 Hart placement in the year he was 4th! (we should dig into 1946) - and we would not know because the question was not posed that way.

Found another example of why it’s important not to conflate ranking in defensive All-Star voting with ranking in Norris voting.

Mark Howe took 262 voting points to Rod Langway’s 228 voting points in 1983 All-Star voting. However Langway trounced him in Norris voting (24-16-12) to (13-24-18). Pretty similar to the Blake/Lidstrom splits from 1998 where the 1st and 2nd place votes are clear-cut in one player’s favor, but the sum of the 1st+2nd is pretty similar.

But because All-Star voting essentially blends 1st and 2nd place ranks, it leaves differentiation down to bottom ballot picks rather than the top ballot.

That’s abandoning way too much nuance to not be acknowledged.

 

[blogofmike]

• Busher Jackson was basically an offense-only player, but I think his regular season numbers should get him in this round.
• Does Stastny's single year of elite play in the CSSR bring him up to Jackson level?

Is VSX really precise enough that a 1 percentage point gap over 7 years means Stastny isn’t on Jackson’s level?

Jackson gets to hit 106 VSX, presumably by scoring 53 points and runs his margin up a little because his linemates missed a few GP and Primeau sets the denominator at 50. (Jackson, Primeau, and Conacher all scored 1.1 PPG).

Stastny is more or less capped from ever passing 100 VSX by Gretzky. Once, I’m guessing in his 1983 season, he scores a 100 VSX. His 90 ES points are 2nd to Gretzky, and well ahead of Savard (75), but Savard manages to catch up to him since Quebec seems to use Stastny on 2/3rds of their PP chances. Savard beats him for the 2nd All Star team by being used more normally and being out for 86% of Chicago’s PP goals.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is VSX really precise enough that a 1 percentage point gap over 7 years means Stastny isn’t on Jackson’s level?

Jackson gets to hit 106 VSX, presumably by scoring 53 points and runs his margin up a little because his linemates missed a few GP and Primeau sets the denominator at 50. (Jackson, Primeau, and Conacher all scored 1.1 PPG).

Stastny is more or less capped from ever passing 100 VSX by Gretzky. Once, I’m guessing in his 1983 season, he scores a 100 VSX. His 90 ES points are 2nd to Gretzky, and well ahead of Savard (75), but Savard manages to catch up to him since Quebec seems to use Stastny on 2/3rds of their PP chances. Savard beats him for the 2nd All Star team by being used more normally and being out for 86% of Chicago’s PP goals.

No, it is not that precise. You have a good point. I prefer Jackson's absolute peak (1st and 2nd in NHL scoring in consecutive years), but I would listen to arguments to the contrary. Both guys look pretty good this round. I also seem to be higher on Doug Bentley than most.

 

[tarheelhockey]

A few compare/contrasts that are running through my head early in this round:


Delvecchio - Jackson
Compare - Played LW + another position. Thrived on all-time dominant lines with goal-scoring superstars, by taking advantage of limited puck touches.

Contrast - Extreme contrast of high-peak/low-longevity (Jackson) against low-peak/high-longevity (Delvecchio). Extreme contrast of a defensively responsible, coaches' pet "company man" (Delvecchio) against a guy who played little defense and had friction with his coach (Jackson).


Delvecchio - Francis - Datsyuk
Compare - Reliable two-way centermen with high offensive upside and tons of longevity. Quiet, classy, Byng-winning types who led by example.

Contrast - Datsyuk sticks out as the guy with probably the highest peak, but much less longevity and the least recognition as a team leader. Francis sticks out as the guy who had the least-favorable team environment, except for the window in Pittsburgh. Delvecchio sticks out at the guy who had the most team support, and who introduces the critical question -- would he have won a Selke?


Bure - Perreault - Stastny
Compare - Sublime offensive players with a long highlight reel and lots of fans, but a relatively short list of achievements to show for it. All three have major defensive question marks.

Contrast - Three very different eras to be an offensive star. Perreault and Stastny played on lines with famously strong chemistry, while Bure was famously a solo act.


Stewart-Quackenbush-Savard-Vasiliev-Langway
Compare - With relatively minor differences, basically the same type of ice-tilting defensive-defenseman in dramatically different contexts.

Contrast - Quackenbush was by far the least physical and least-penalized. He and Stewart were the only ones with a claim (however brief and compromised by weak competition) of being the best D overall. Langway received unprecedented peer recognition for a defensive-D. Savard and Vasiliev were far the most successful in terms of contributing to team achievements.


Planning to drill down on these contrasts as a framework for ranking them within their positions, and then thinking about cross-positional comparisons.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

To be fair, it's probably just as well to look at him having only the 4th place finish. I wonder if his early eligibility is based on "bonus" achievements in 1943 and 1944 when there was virtually no competition:

You absolutely should not completely dismiss results from 1942-43, as it is incorrect to say there was virtually no competition for awards that season. The league strength was much closer to 1941-42 than to the real war-depleted seasons of 1943-44 and 1944-45, since most of the players had not yet left for the war effort by the spring of 1943.

For example, 16 of the top 20 scorers from 1941-42 played full seasons in 1942-43, and that doesn't even include Max Bentley, Bill Cowley or Elmer Lach, all of whom played partial seasons in 1941-42 and finished in the top 10 in scoring in 1942-43.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Found another example of why it’s important not to conflate ranking in defensive All-Star voting with ranking in Norris voting.

Mark Howe took 262 voting points to Rod Langway’s 228 voting points in 1983 All-Star voting. However Langway trounced him in Norris voting (24-16-12) to (13-24-18). Pretty similar to the Blake/Lidstrom splits from 1998 where the 1st and 2nd place votes are clear-cut in one player’s favor, but the sum of the 1st+2nd is pretty similar.

But because All-Star voting essentially blends 1st and 2nd place ranks, it leaves differentiation down to bottom ballot picks rather than the top ballot.

That’s abandoning way too much nuance to not be acknowledged.

But it's the best we have for pre-Norris defensemen

 

[tarheelhockey]

How these players ranked in prior HFBoards studies:

2008 Top 100 Players
#73 Peter Stastny
#81T Bernie Parent
#85 Gilbert Perreault
#89 Busher Jackson
#90 Doug Bentley
#94 Ron Francis
#96 Alex Delvecchio
#97 Valeri Vasiliev
#98 Serge Savard

2011 Top 60 Defensemen
#25 Valeri Vasiliev
#26T Bill Quackenbush
#28 Serge Savard
#29 Rod Langway
#31 Jack Stewart
#32 Guy Lapointe

2012 Top 40 Goalies
#17 Bernie Parent

2013 Top 60 Centers
#35 Ron Francis
#36 Peter Stastny
#37 Alex Delvecchio
#41T Gilbert Perreault
#43 Pavel Dastyuk

2014 Top 60 Wingers
#27 Busher Jackson
#28 Doug Bentley
#29 Pavel Bure

2015 Top 50 non-NHL Europeans
#10 Valeri Vasiliev

2017 Top 40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers
#27 Serge Savard


The obvious disclaimer -- these rankings were often decided by paper-thin margins, and we risk falling into groupthink if we give them too much credit. That being said, these rankings also did involve a lot of work and were conducted to the high standards of debate that we enjoy in this forum, so they do deserve some consideration.

One thing we can glean is how these players' reputation shifted between 2008 and the positional rankings a few years later. In general, major shifts reflect a change in the depth of the research we had done... some players like Nighbor/Makarov (positive) and Stewart/Kharlamov had major re-adjustments based on how our perceptions changed upon closer review of primary sources. The biggest positive shifts tended to be among very new, very old, and Euro players. The biggest negative shifts tended to be among players with deceptive stats -- mainly 70s/80s players, guys who led specific blocks of time in scoring, and guys who were awful defensively.

Here are the shifts we saw in players currently featured:

• Francis dropped from the #30 center to #35
• Stastny dropped from the #23 center to #36
• Perreault dropped from the #28 center to #41
• Vasiliev dropped from the #22 defenseman to #25, though this is almost entirely due to Pronger moving up and Clapper being counted as a D instead of a wing
• Savard dropped from the #23 defenseman to #28, same disclaimer about Pronger/Clapper
• Jackson dropped from the #25 wing to the #27, a negligible drop as he was passed by Iginla

Based on the above, I don't think it would be too unkind to say that Stastny and Perreault have significantly inflated reputations in the popular consciousness, and Francis is somewhat inflated.

 

[quoipourquoi]

But it's the best we have for pre-Norris defensemen

I don’t disagree that it’s the best we have, but I also wouldn’t suggest using it to differentiate between two players on the 1st Team (or two players on the 2nd Team).

Differentiating the pair of 1st Team players from the pair of 2nd Team players is its function. Trying to derive information beyond that is probably a bad idea. Especially when we’re taking that data and drawing a conclusion about one player (retired in 1956; inducted in 1976) being better than another player (retired in 1952; inducted in 1964) when they’re both identical 3x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team players.

If we can find flaws in equating the Norris and All-Star vote totals in years of 50-60 voters, the 5-voter system in 1948 and 1949 is certainly nothing to expect to be “equivalent”.

Not saying that the whole not-winning-a-Stanley-Cup thing didn’t hurt Quackenbush getting into the HOF (Chuck Rayner was a 1953-1973 wait himself), but missing two years of his peak during the war hurt Stewart’s chances too.

There are resources beyond the unintentional misuse of voting data that can be used to draw conclusions about two teammates. If All-Star voting was the best evidence used in ATDs and the Defenseman Project to repudiate Stewart’s seemingly higher standing (the HOF wait, Quackenbush going unranked on 48 or 49 of the top-50 THN ballots; Stewart either far less or with stronger support on the ones he did make), I don’t know that it should have been enough.

The 1940s

Abel finished fifth in league scoring with 49 points in 1941-42 and became the captain of the Red Wings in 1942-43.

Detroit’s blue line also got an addition in 1938-39 when Jack Stewart was introduced to the NHL. His dark features and physical game earned him the nickname ‘Black Jack’ Stewart as he terrorized opposing forwards with bone-crushing hits and his great strength.

The Red Wings advanced to the Stanley Cup Finals in 1941 and 1942, losing to the Boston Bruins and the Toronto Maple Leafs respectively. The Bruins swept the Red Wings in four games as Detroit was thwarted by the spectacular goaltending of Frank Brimsek, who lived up to his nickname of ‘Mr. Zero’ by allowing only six goals to Detroit in the series.

The Red Wings won the first three games of the 1942 Stanley Cup Final against the Maple Leafs, but Toronto rallied to win the next four to win the Cup. It was the first and only time a team has come back from a three games to none Cup Final deficit and only one of the two times in NHL history that a team has lost a playoff series after winning the first three games (the NY Islanders also came back from a 3-0 deficit against Pittsburgh in 1975).

The Red Wings would get their revenge on the Bruins and Brimsek by winning the third Stanley Cup in team history with a four-game sweep of Boston in 1943. Detroit had also finished first overall with 61 points and a 25-14-11 record in 1942-43, the first season of the ‘Original Six’ six-team NHL (the league had ranged from 4 to 10 teams from its beginning in 1917-18 through 1941-42). That season began what has become known as the NHL’s ‘Golden Age’ which lasted through the 1966-67 season, after which the league doubled in size to 12 teams.

The 1944 season saw an offensive explosion in the NHL as many of the league’s best defensive players were serving in World War II (both Abel and Stewart served in the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1943-44 and 1944-45). The NHL’s leading scorer, Boston’s Herb Cain, had 36 goals and 82 points, and the Red Wings’ Carl Liscombe finished fourth in the scoring race with a team record 36 goals, 37 assists and 73 points.

Detroit wouldn’t capture the Stanley Cup again until 1950, but the late ‘40s would see the arrival of a group of players who would become not only Red Wing legends, but NHL legends as well.

With the promotions of Ted Lindsay (1944-45), Gordie Howe (1946-47), Red Kelly (1947- 48) and Terry Sawchuk (1949-50) to the NHL and the return of both Abel and Stewart from the RCAF, one of the greatest dynasties in NHL history was set into motion.

Adams handed the coaching reins to Tommy Ivan after the 1946-47 season. Detroit finished second overall during the 1947-48 regular season, five points behind the Toronto Maple Leafs, but the team ran off a streak of seven straight first overall finishes from 1948-49 through 1954-55 and won four Stanley Cups (1950, 1952, 1954 and 1955).

Detroit’s media guide doesn’t even name-drop Quackenbush in its section on the 1940s. Perhaps a little unfair (surely he’s one of the “arrival of a group of players”), but his importance may be blown up by the seemingly unchecked until now HOH reading of All-Star voting just a little bit.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Based on the above, I don't think it would be too unkind to say that Stastny and Perreault have significantly inflated reputations in the popular consciousness, and Francis is somewhat inflated.

Eh... we shouldn’t really ever assume we’re right. I don’t think you’re necessarily saying that, but there have been enough cases where HOH has had an opinion that differed strongly from the mainstream and then drifted back towards the mainstream.

We might all have deflated opinions of Francis because we heard for 15 years about how he was the most underrated player in hockey every time he touched the puck.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Remarkably similar playoff records for Stastny & Perreault.

Stastny: 93 games 33-72-105 -3

Perreault: 90 games 33-70-103 -21

Their career's overlapped for about 7 seasons, but Stastny really had the higher scoring era in his prime.

Bure's playoffs (though limited) were comparable while beefier on the goal scoring: 65 games 35-35-70 +8

 

[tarheelhockey]

Detroit’s media guide doesn’t even name-drop Quackenbush in its section on the 1940s. Perhaps a little unfair (surely he’s one of the “arrival of a group of players”), but his importance may be blown up by the seemingly unchecked until now HOH reading of All-Star voting just a little bit.

Is it really a surprise that he goes unmentioned in a marketing-department narrative that climaxes with the Glory Boys of the franchise? What would they say about him in that context? “We had this other guy who was really good while the team was kind of mediocre, but we didn’t want to pay him to sit on the bench so we traded him for peanuts. So... yeah.”

 

[tarheelhockey]

Eh... we shouldn’t really ever assume we’re right. I don’t think you’re necessarily saying that, but there have been enough cases where HOH has had an opinion that differed strongly from the mainstream and then drifted back towards the mainstream.

We might all have deflated opinions of Francis because we heard for 15 years about how he was the most underrated player in hockey every time he touched the puck.

Maybe, and I wouldn’t make too much out of a drop of just a few spots. But a 13-spot drop on a 40-name list is a major recalibration.

I wouldn’t assume we were right, but I remember how much work went into that list and I know the results weren’t arbitrary.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm in what I recognize to be a minority in that I'd take Lapointe over Savard. To me, the massive gap in offensive production is difficult to make up

Here's how to make it up: One played a lot on the powerplay, one didn't.

Through the 79-80 season, Savard had roughly the same career GP as Lapointe, and by that time, he had 25.2 adjusted ESP per 82 games, and Lapointe had 28. The gap in their offensive talents is not massive, and the difference you see in the numbers is almost entirely situational.

 

[seventieslord]

Peter Stastny was 2nd in points in the 1980s behind a certain legendary player, so I think he's a lock, and if he isn't you didn't watch him play.

Pavel Bure was a generational superstar, so I think he deserves to be in there.

Pavel Datsyuk would have my vote.

I'm too young to remember Gilbert Perreault, it would come down to him, Francis, or Savard, in my opinion for the final spot.

I guess I'll vote for Francis as #4, he's still up there in all time scoring, though he was never a player who struck me as dominant.

[Mod] I just wanted to point out that you gave props to five players: forwards who played during your lifetime.

The other ten players are: a goalie, six defensemen, and three forwards who didn't play during your lifetime.

There just might be some biases at play here.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Is it really a surprise that he goes unmentioned in a marketing-department narrative that climaxes with the Glory Boys of the franchise? What would they say about him in that context? “We had this other guy who was really good while the team was kind of mediocre, but we didn’t want to pay him to sit on the bench so we traded him for peanuts. So... yeah.”

Take the time to mention Carl Liscombe and not someone that HOH is equating with two-time Norris winners?

It’s part of a larger piece of the puzzle - Quackenbush over Stewart isn’t one of those mainstream opinions but rather something that seems to originate here.

And from what? A well-written bio and a misread of what All-Star voting is? A desire to project Lidstrom onto a non-physical Red Wings defenseman?

Quackenbush scored 2 goals and 8 points in 47 playoff games with Detroit from 1944 through 1949. Stewart scored 2 goals and 7 points in 30 playoff games in that same range of time while missing two years! In the two-bookending years where Quackenbush didn’t play in the playoffs (1943 with Detroit and 1950 with Boston), Stewart added 8 points in 24 playoff games, winning two Cups.

Like... scoring isn’t even Stewart’s thing. In the above referenced years, Stewart had 88 points in 331 regular season games to Quackenbush’s 155 in 384. How is it that Stewart exceeds the playoff point production of his puck-rushing partner and we’re resisting seeing the writing that’s been left on the wall for 70 years?

Just because All-Star voting is the best(ish) thing we have for pre-Norris defensemen does not mean we have to use it in a way to challenge the history of Stewart being held in higher regard than Quackenbush when the voting itself doesn’t even really say that either.

We’re saying the Red Wings didn’t want to pay Quackenbush to sit on the bench after 1949 (Clare Martin still played 64 games but I get the meaning), but we’re also saying he was coming off of two supposedly Norris-equivalent seasons. Seems like the team didn’t value him the way reigning two-time Norris winners are valued, so he was probably not that.

It’s not like they even kept Babando either. He was around for one year, scored the biggest goal in franchise history, and was dealt along with Jack Stewart. Clare Martin and Jimmy Peters went the year after. So they didn’t keep their return on the deal or one of the two defensemen they had above Quackenbush that made him expendable.

We talked about players’ two-best consecutive years a few rounds ago... how many players in this round do we have whose teams would move them at the point their stock was at its highest, get so little back, and then not even keep what little it was?

 

[ted2019]

Again, Pavel Bure hype.

Only had 5 NHL seasons where he played over 70 games. Scored 51, 58, 59, 60 and 60 goals in those seasons. Led the league 3 times.

5th best goals per game all-time regular season. 8th best all-time playoffs.

Led the league in short-handed goals twice.

Led the playoffs in goals & even strength goals in 1994.

Never had the benefit of playing with a great center or team.

Gretzky holds the all time record for SHG with 73. Doesn't mean that he played much defense or even played below the red line much during a Penalty Kill.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Gretzky holds the all time record for SHG with 73. Doesn't mean that he played much defense or even played below the red line much during a Penalty Kill.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[BenchBrawl]

At this point I hope Serge Savard's playoff resume compared to the rest of the candidates (minus Parent) will be enough to get him in.

 

[ted2019]

What does that have to do with anything?

It means the same as Bure leading the league in SHG twice. Bure was a cherry picker, just like Gretzky was.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It means the same as Bure leading the league in SHG twice. Bure was a cherry picker, just like Gretzky was.

Gretzky the cherry picker is still ranked #1, right? (not by me)

So why not Bure for 116th?

 

[ted2019]

A few compare/contrasts that are running through my head early in this round:


Delvecchio - Jackson
Compare - Played LW + another position. Thrived on all-time dominant lines with goal-scoring superstars, by taking advantage of limited puck touches.

Contrast - Extreme contrast of high-peak/low-longevity (Jackson) against low-peak/high-longevity (Delvecchio). Extreme contrast of a defensively responsible, coaches' pet "company man" (Delvecchio) against a guy who played little defense and had friction with his coach (Jackson).


Delvecchio - Francis - Datsyuk
Compare - Reliable two-way centermen with high offensive upside and tons of longevity. Quiet, classy, Byng-winning types who led by example.

Contrast - Datsyuk sticks out as the guy with probably the highest peak, but much less longevity and the least recognition as a team leader. Francis sticks out as the guy who had the least-favorable team environment, except for the window in Pittsburgh. Delvecchio sticks out at the guy who had the most team support, and who introduces the critical question -- would he have won a Selke?


Bure - Perreault - Stastny
Compare - Sublime offensive players with a long highlight reel and lots of fans, but a relatively short list of achievements to show for it. All three have major defensive question marks.

Contrast - Three very different eras to be an offensive star. Perreault and Stastny played on lines with famously strong chemistry, while Bure was famously a solo act.


Stewart-Quackenbush-Savard-Vasiliev-Langway
Compare - With relatively minor differences, basically the same type of ice-tilting defensive-defenseman in dramatically different contexts.

Contrast - Quackenbush was by far the least physical and least-penalized. He and Stewart were the only ones with a claim (however brief and compromised by weak competition) of being the best D overall. Langway received unprecedented peer recognition for a defensive-D. Savard and Vasiliev were far the most successful in terms of contributing to team achievements.


Planning to drill down on these contrasts as a framework for ranking them within their positions, and then thinking about cross-positional comparisons.

Delvecchio - Jackson: I won't have either in my top 5 and depending on who comes up next, they might not make the next either.
Delvecchio - Francis - Datsyuk: I already stated earlier about Delvecchio, Francis has no shot this round, maybe next round. Datsyuk a shot, just not sure on how much of a shot he does.
Bure - Perreault - Stastny: Stastny will have to wait another round at least and Perreault was an elegant player, but I'm not sure that he belongs now, most likely for me, next round. Bure is more and more becoming the 5th spot and it has nothing to do with his leading the league in SHG twice. Bure was a one man show at times due to the talent around him.
Stewart-Quackenbush-Savard-Vasiliev-Langway-Lapointe: This one is the toughest for me. Langway I think should be #1 for me this round, with Savard, Vasiliev in the top 3-5. My question is where do Stewart & Lapointe fit in all of this.
Bentley: I'll be honest, I thought it was MAX and not Doug when I first saw this. Doug is hard to place as he lead the league twice in goals and assists, besides winning an Art Ross. Also, Bentley was more of a 5v5 scorer, as he had only 22.2% on special teams.




Quackenbush/Savard/Langway/Vasiliev/ Bentley
Stewart/Bure/Busher/Datsyuk/Lapointe
Francis/Bernie/Stastny/Delvecchio/Perreault

 

[ted2019]

Gretzky the cherry picker is still ranked #1, right? (not by me)

So why not Bure for 116th?

You SERIOUSLY can't be comparing Bure to Gretzky. I had Gordie as #1 by the way.

 

[ted2019]

Even Strength points vs. Special Team points amongst the forwards. (Don't have Special Team numbers for Jackson from 1929-30 to 1932-33)

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Player[/TD][TD]Total Points[/TD][TD]Special Teams[/TD][TD]Special Teams %[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Ron Francis[/TD][TD] 1798[/TD][TD] 758[/TD][TD] 42.1%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Peter Stastny[/TD][TD] 1239[/TD][TD] 480[/TD][TD] 38.7%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Pavel Datsyuk[/TD][TD] 918[/TD][TD] 341[/TD][TD] 37.1%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Pavel Bure[/TD][TD] 779[/TD][TD] 285[/TD][TD] 36.5%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Gilbert Perreault[/TD][TD] 1326[/TD][TD] 444[/TD][TD] 33.4%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Alex Delvecchio[/TD][TD] 1289[/TD][TD] 407[/TD][TD] 31.5%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Doug Bentley[/TD][TD] 543[/TD][TD] 121[/TD][TD] 22.2%[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Busher Jackson[/TD][TD] 475[/TD][TD] 53[/TD][TD] 11.1%[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]