Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[Dennis Bonvie]

I didn't have Worters this high on my list, but I think he's very worthy of consideration here. I don't think it would be very hard for him to be talked up for me, since I strongly feel that I ranked him too low to start with. Maybe he doesn't even have to be talked up.Langway is just plain too early for me. If I want a strictly shutdown guy, I don't know if there's anyone else I'd turn to first, but his offense was so woefully low that his overall game isn't at the level of a Savard for me, who, while getting closer, still doesn't feel quite right here for me. If it were strictly up to me, Langway would still be waiting a while.Francis is close to me, but I don't think I'm ready to pull the trigger on placing him on the list. I had him just below this level originally, and I still feel good about that. I think @TheDevilMadeMe made some excellent points above about Francis. I love him as a playmaker, and I think he was an excellent defender, but he did have to have the right setup to be at his absolute best offensively. I tend to think that it's a bit too early for him, but I also think that he played at a high enough level for a long enough period of time to mean that he probably shouldn't wait too much longer. Right now, my gut says he should probably wait one more round.

Datsyuk has always reminded me quite a bit of Francis. He's not as big, and he leaned more toward defense as opposed to playmaking, but those are still common strengths of the two of them. I just feel like they offer the same sort of things, though Datsyuk didn't fare nearly so well in the longevity department. I think Francis needs to go before Datsyuk.

Parent is the type of player that I have a very difficult time judging. I don't care for his lack of longevity at all, and that year in the WHA doesn't really help that. But, obviously, he was quite good, and during that two year peak was peak Hasek caliber, aka, about as good as anyone at the position has ever been. Here's a question I'd like to pose to the group: How, with the common features lack of longevity but very high level of peak play, does he compare to Bure? I think Bure was probably more consistently close to his peak over time, but I'm not sure that his peak was quite as high as Parent's. Parent has those two years that can stack up to any goalie in history, but I don't think Bure was ever at "best scorer in history" level. But, he's got five top flight seasons as compared to two. I may be the only one, but I'm fascinated by this particular comparison.

When Francis played for Hartford and they played against the Bruins, when he stepped on the ice so did Ray Bourque. That's a tough situation. That was how teams played the Whalers. Anyone playing in that situation who then went to play with Lemeiux & Jagr would have a huge swing in production.

 

[Professor What]

When Francis played for Hartford and they played against the Bruins, when he stepped on the ice so did Ray Bourque. That's a tough situation. That was how teams played the Whalers. Anyone playing in that situation who then went to play with Lemeiux & Jagr would have a huge swing in production.

Agreed. I didn't mean that he wasn't good in Hartford. He was very good, and you don't get a nickname like "Ronnie Franchise" otherwise. I meant that more along the lines of for a guy that has his defensive style to put up massive numbers (like leading the league in assists), he was going to have to be on a line with a serious threat like Jagr. I think that Francis is one of the great passers the game has seen, but being second all-time in assists has a lot more to do with his longevity than anything. We might not have reached Oates yet, but I feel that bringing him up here is fitting, since they're so similar in their offerings. I like Francis better than Oates defensively, even if not by a massive margin. The offset of that is that Oates' assist finishes were a little better. Francis topped him in assists on the strength of about 400 more career games.

My point is, yes, Francis was a fine offensive dynamo, but his career numbers have to be placed in the proper perspective, which the raw stat of 1,249 assists doesn't do. To see him put up numbers in a single season that would seem to line up with that career number, it's going to take a Jagr. But, even that has to be placed in the context of the defense you get. It's all about perspective.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Ron Francis (quite similar to Stastny through seven years, then pulling ahead after that)

I've never really thought of him this way before, but isn't Francis basically a Stastny-ish offensive presence (less goals, more assists, similar impact) with far better defense and far better longevity?

I'm really struggling with Stastny. I had him very high on my initial list, but I find myself dropping him lower and lower. His profile looks pretty good until it's held up head-to-head against someone else.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've never really thought of him this way before, but isn't Francis basically a Stastny-ish offensive presence (less goals, more assists, similar impact) with far better defense and far better longevity?

I'm really struggling with Stastny. I had him very high on my initial list, but I find myself dropping him lower and lower. His profile looks pretty good until it's held up head-to-head against someone else.

Stastny was easily better offensively than Francis when you consider he was the top dog on his line when he was putting up those numbers. (Stastny also looks to have missed 1 prime year when he was still stuck in Czechoslovakia)

(Yes, Francis was top dog in Hartford, but he wasn't quite putting up top 10 numbers then).

Francis definitely has the defensive advantage over Stastny.

 

[Professor What]

Personally, I think we're very, very close to where Stastny should be. I ranked him 110 originally, and I still feel pretty good about that. I'd have him ahead of Francis on balance, but not by much. Anyone who logically argued for Francis jut ahead of Stastny would probably get a shrug and an "I can see that" from me. Basically, I think it's too close to burn much energy on. If one went thins round and one next round, I'd see no problem at all there.

 

[ted2019]

Happy Birthday to me and I'll have time to participate in this round.

• Bernie Parent
• Bill Quackenbush
• Busher Jackson
• Doug Gilmour
• Jiri Holecek
• Johnny Bower
• Pavel Bure
• Pavel Datsyuk
• Peter Stastny
• Rod Langway
• Ron Francis
• Roy Worters
• Serge Savard
• Toe Blake
• Valeri Vasiliev

Right off the bat to me is that Bernie is a round too early for me and I'm also happy to see Worters this high. Surprised Gilmour/Quackenbush didn't make it. Sad to see Savard still on the list and Esposito making it last round.

 

[Professor What]

Happy Birthday to me and I'll have time to participate in this round.

• Bernie Parent
• Bill Quackenbush
• Busher Jackson
• Doug Gilmour
• Jiri Holecek
• Johnny Bower
• Pavel Bure
• Pavel Datsyuk
• Peter Stastny
• Rod Langway
• Ron Francis
• Roy Worters
• Serge Savard
• Toe Blake
• Valeri Vasiliev

Right off the bat to me is that Bernie is a round too early for me and I'm also happy to see Worters this high. Surprised Gilmour/Quackenbush didn't make it. Sad to see Savard still on the list and Esposito making it last round.

Well, happy birthday.

I feel like it's time for Quackenbush to go. Blake and Vasiliev too. I'm a lot more comfortable with Gilmour here than I have been before. He just feels like a better fit in here. He and Francis make a pretty interesting comparison as well, both defensively minded and pass first on offense.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Stastny was easily better offensively than Francis when you consider he was the top dog on his line when he was putting up those numbers. (Stastny also looks to have missed 1 prime year when he was still stuck in Czechoslovakia)

(Yes, Francis was top dog in Hartford, but he wasn't quite putting up top 10 numbers then).

Francis definitely has the defensive advantage over Stastny.

Don't get me wrong, Stastny circa 81-84 hit an offensive level Francis never reached without a lot of help in Pittsburgh. But the offensive gap isn't really as big as the numbers make it appear, is it? I mean we're talking about pretty significantly different team environments:

Stastny teammates in the early/mid 80s: Michel Goulet, Marian + Anton Stastny, Real Cloutier, Wilf Paiement, Dale Hunter

Francis teammates in the early/mid 80s: Blaine Stoughton, Mark Johnson, Doug Sulliman, Sylvain Turgeon, Ray Neufeld

During that period, Stastny had much larger numbers but c'mon, look at the difference in scoring support there. In that environment, Francis ran at about a 90-100 point pace on a full schedule. Flip the calendar forward to the late 80s and early 90s, with more scoring support in both Hartford and Pittsburgh, and Francis elevates to being a 100+ point player. With scoring rates taken into consideration (about 1 goal per game more in the early 80s than the early 90s) the gap gets a lot narrower than it looks at first.

I think a context-neutral comparison would have Stastny as something like a 10% better offensive player in his prime. After that, Francis would win any other area of comparison, whether that be defense, longevity, leadership, playoffs, whatever.

The thing is, I don't want to overly boost for Francis here. I think Gilmour and Datsyuk are better centers at this stage, and at least Blake is also a better forward option. My thoughts were more that Stastny seems weaker against this range of competition than I would have expected, so maybe I'm missing something about Stastny or we're not talking about him enough or... something?

 

[seventieslord]

"more scoring support" kinda understates what happened to Francis in 1991 though, doesn't it?

I mean, there's still a HUGE difference between being a top-10 scorer in the league when there's another top-10 scorer on your team (on another line) and being a top-10 scorer in the league when the best two offensive players in the league are on your team and badly outscoring you, and then, having the undisputed best scorer in the league on your line dragging you into the top-10.

If we look at the raw placements, adjusted numbers, etc, we could look at Francis similar to how we look as Stastny, but there are plenty of good reasons not to. We don't take Johnny Bucyk's late career numbers at face value either, for an equally good reason.

There are reasons to take Francis over Stastny (just abut everything except regular season offense) but we should not pretend he was anything close to the offensive talent Stastny was.

 

[tarheelhockey]

"more scoring support" kinda understates what happened to Francis in 1991 though, doesn't it?

I mean, there's still a HUGE difference between being a top-10 scorer in the league when there's another top-10 scorer on your team (on another line) and being a top-10 scorer in the league when the best two offensive players in the league are on your team and badly outscoring you, and then, having the undisputed best scorer in the league on your line dragging you into the top-10.

If we look at the raw placements, adjusted numbers, etc, we could look at Francis similar to how we look as Stastny, but there are plenty of good reasons not to. We don't take Johnny Bucyk's late career numbers at face value either, for an equally good reason.

There are reasons to take Francis over Stastny (just abut everything except regular season offense) but we should not pretend he was anything close to the offensive talent Stastny was.

I get that Francis' Pittsburgh numbers are inflated, but he had scoring finishes of 11, 12, 17 while playing in Hartford. It's not like he was far off top-10 territory while playing in a highly unfavorable environment and playing a much more rounded game.

Stastny definitely did put points on the board at a notably higher pace, but that was in the context of having much more scoring support on a firewagon team in a firewagon division during the highest-scoring era in NHL history. We can still say he was the better offensive player while also acknowledging that the gap wasn't nearly as large as it's cracked up to be.

 

[Professor What]

I don't know if anyone has an offensive legacy that suffers as much as Stastny because of his overlap with Gretzky. Here are what Stastny's top 10 finishes in assists and points would look like if we eliminate Gretzky from the conversation:

Assists
93 - 1st (2nd - 87)
77 - 2nd (leader - 86)
73 - 3th (leader - 86)*
81 - 4th (leader - 93)**
70 - 5th (leader - 82)
68 - 5th (leader - 84)*
65 - 8th (leader - 98)+

Points
124 - 1st (2nd - 121)
139 - 2nd (leader - 147)
119 - 3rd (leader - 126)*
111 - 4th (leader - 168)+
109 - 5th (leader - 135)
122 - 5th (leader - 141)**

A single asterisk means that Coffey finished ahead of him. I didn't mess around with Coffey's numbers, but I'd dare say that I'm not going out on a limb by suggesting that no Gretzky means his numbers would have gone down significantly. A plus sign means Lemieux finished ahead of him. It's worth noting, but Lemieux's strength isn't as damaging to Stastny as Gretzky's, because there wasn't nearly as much overlap. Double asterisks mean both Coffey and Lemieux finished ahead of him, so apply a combination of the above comments. Keep in mind too that Stastny was 24 when he came to North America, after four fine seasons in Czechoslovakia, in addition to one more pretty good one. Domestic play saw him pick up 131 goals and 109 assists in 198 games, while international play saw him pick up 25 goals and 29 assists in 50 games.

If we want to talk pure offense, Stastny is all over this round. Bure's offensive peak might have been a bit better, but if you want sustained , high level production, it's Stastny. I can't wrap my head around any argument that suggests that he was anything but a complete dynamo.

 

[seventieslord]

I get that Francis' Pittsburgh numbers are inflated, but he had scoring finishes of 11, 12, 17 while playing in Hartford. It's not like he was far off top-10 territory while playing in a highly unfavorable environment and playing a much more rounded game.

Stastny definitely did put points on the board at a notably higher pace, but that was in the context of having much more scoring support on a firewagon team in a firewagon division during the highest-scoring era in NHL history. We can still say he was the better offensive player while also acknowledging that the gap wasn't nearly as large as it's cracked up to be.

wait, when did the Adams division become a firewagon division?

Stastny did have better players around him, but he outscored them by an even greater degree than Francis did. In quebec, Stastny was a 77% higher scorer than the average player to collaborate on any goal with him. In Hartford, Francis was 61% higher-scoring than these lesser players you cite.

I mean, we're talking about 1.49 PPG versus 1.15 over their respective first 8 seasons with their first franchises... that's not in the range of, "well, let's talk about the different situations that affected those totals" - that is HUGE.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

wait, when did the Adams division become a firewagon division?

Stastny did have better players around him, but he outscored them by an even greater degree than Francis did. In quebec, Stastny was a 77% higher scorer than the average player to collaborate on any goal with him. In Hartford, Francis was 61% higher-scoring than these lesser players you cite.

I mean, we're talking about 1.49 PPG versus 1.15 over their respective first 8 seasons with their first franchises... that's not in the range of, "well, let's talk about the different situations that affected those totals" - that is HUGE.

Yes, Stastny was clearly a better offensive player, especially in their first eight years.

But it should be noted Francis's first 8 season start when he was 18 year old-old. Stastny started when he was 24.

 

[Professor What]

Top 7 team VsX seasons for Stastny in Quebec and Francis in Hartford:

Stastny
143.3
118.1
117.3
109.0
105.8
105.3
104.7
Average: 114.8

Francis
150.0
130.6
118.4
117.7
113.5
97.5
95.4
Average: 117.6

Francis scores slightly higher in the average, but it's very close, and with there seeming to be a general agreement that Stastny played on noticeably stronger squads, I find Stastny's results here to be quite a bit more impressive. I'm certainly not bagging on Francis, since I think the guy was awesome, but he wasn't on Stastny's level purely offensively. The case for him has a lot more to do with defense and his two-way game, and it's very vaild. Stastny wins offense alone easily. As I said earlier, I don't have any problem either way they're ranked, but I think the logic behind the arguments has to be framed properly.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, Stastny was clearly a better offensive player, especially in their first eight years.

But it should be noted Francis's first 8 season start when he was 18 year old-old. Stastny started when he was 24.

That's true, I just compared 18-25 year old Francis to 24-31 year old Stastny.

Even still, just comparing their HFD/QUE years that overlap in age, it's 1.60 to 1.15 at ages 24-26.

 

[tarheelhockey]

wait, when did the Adams division become a firewagon division?

The Adams was pretty high-scoring during that window.
1982 - Montreal (3rd in scoring), Quebec (4), Boston (9)
1983 - Montreal (2), Quebec (3), Boston (5), Buffalo (9)
1984 - Quebec (2), Boston (7), Buffalo (8)

Bearing in mind of course that #1 was an uncatchable, all-time outlier.

Stastny did have better players around him, but he outscored them by an even greater degree than Francis did. In quebec, Stastny was a 77% higher scorer than the average player to collaborate on any goal with him. In Hartford, Francis was 61% higher-scoring than these lesser players you cite.

I mean, we're talking about 1.49 PPG versus 1.15 over their respective first 8 seasons with their first franchises... that's not in the range of, "well, let's talk about the different situations that affected those totals" - that is HUGE.

We absolutely do need to talk about the different situations there.

- Stastny's peak came during THE highest scoring phase history, playing on a top-3 offensive team.

- Francis' peak came during a scoring decline (still high relative to today, but solidly 1/3rd GPG lower) playing for a bottom-3 offensive team.

I mean, just to oversimplify: Comparing their non-Pittsburgh highest scoring seasons, Stastny scored around 38% more points on a team that scored around 30% more goals. It doesn't close the gap between them completely, but the gap is superficially inflated to wild proportions as early 80s numbers often are.

 

[seventieslord]

The Adams was pretty high-scoring during that window.
1982 - Montreal (3rd in scoring), Quebec (4), Boston (9)
1983 - Montreal (2), Quebec (3), Boston (5), Buffalo (9)
1984 - Quebec (2), Boston (7), Buffalo (8)

Bearing in mind of course that #1 was an uncatchable, all-time outlier.



We absolutely do need to talk about the different situations there.

- Stastny's peak came during THE highest scoring phase history, playing on a top-3 offensive team.

- Francis' peak came during a scoring decline (still high relative to today, but solidly 1/3rd GPG lower) playing for a bottom-3 offensive team.

I mean, just to oversimplify: Comparing their non-Pittsburgh highest scoring seasons, Stastny scored around 38% more points on a team that scored around 30% more goals. It doesn't close the gap between them completely, but the gap is superficially inflated to wild proportions as early 80s numbers often are.

1. If we are trying to discuss whether a division is tougher for Stastny to score in, we need to look at the defensive records of the teams in it, not the offensive ones. The year-by-year calculations I did on this a year ago indicate that it was 1.1-3.9% harder to rack up points as an adams division player during the 1990s, peaking in 1984-85.
2. Francis is an Adams division player too, so divisional toughness doesn't even need to be a part of this discussion.

 

[seventieslord]

For the record, yes, the Adams was the toughest division to score on during the 1980s. In Stastny's first eight seasons, the average Adams team allowed 17, 34, 6, 44, 46, 36, 25, and 33 fewer goals than the average of the non-Adams team. It's a HUGE difference. At the same time, we can't overstate it - you only played 40% of your games against your division in the 80s, and other teams still played about 20% of theirs against the Adams, too. Hence, the 1.1-3.9% number quoted above. It matters, a little, over the long term, to the tune of 2-3 points a season for top players.

The attached file has all this data. Anyone interested please download. The thread where I originally presented this research is here: Difficulty of schedule for offensive players

 

[tarheelhockey]

1. If we are trying to discuss whether a division is tougher for Stastny to score in, we need to look at the defensive records of the teams in it, not the offensive ones. The year-by-year calculations I did on this a year ago indicate that it was 1.1-3.9% harder to rack up points as an adams division player during the 1990s, peaking in 1984-85.

I'm not going to re-litigate those calculations. All I can tell you is you watch the early-80s Quebec Nordiques play, and the firewagon with that team was pretty darn strong. They were routinely a strong offensive team and a weak defensive team.

In 1982, Stastny's big year, that team had the following results:
9-8 W
8-7 W
8-5 W
7-5 W
7-5 W
4-11 L
1-10 L
7-10 L
2-9 L
4-9 L
7-8L
3-8 L
1-7 L
5-7 L
4-7 L

Are we calling that something other than firewagon hockey? If not, why quibble over it?

Again we are comparing a player from a top-3 offensive team who peaked during the early 80s (~8.0 GPG era) to a player on a bottom-3 offensive team who peaked around 1990 (~7.5 GPG era). It should go without saying that the raw statistical gap between them shouldn't be taken at face value.

I mean just look at the vsX that @Professor What posted above. It's pretty clear that there isn't actually anything close to a "40% higher PPG" type of gap between these guys.

Why are we holding top-10s as a standard against a player who finished 11th and 12th, and promoting raw PPG over vsX when comparing guys who peaked at different times?

 

[BM67]

Ron Francis was the only 90+ point scorer on Hartford/Carolina between Stoughton in 1982 and Staal in 2006.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm not going to re-litigate those calculations. All I can tell you is you watch the early-80s Quebec Nordiques play, and the firewagon with that team was pretty darn strong. They were routinely a strong offensive team and a weak defensive team.

In 1982, Stastny's big year, that team had the following results:
9-8 W
8-7 W
8-5 W
7-5 W
7-5 W
4-11 L
1-10 L
7-10 L
2-9 L
4-9 L
7-8L
3-8 L
1-7 L
5-7 L
4-7 L

Are we calling that something other than firewagon hockey? If not, why quibble over it?

Hey, I have a stat for that too. In every season I give a player a "Run/Gun" score that is simply the sum of goals for and against his team had, versus the averages. Over 8 seasons, Stastny's Norqiques saw 0.75% more goals go both ways than average. (broken down, they were 3.5% better than average offensively and 2.0% better than average defensively, plus or minus annual rounding I suspect). Basically, they were not a run and gun team, they were almost as close to average over 8 years as a team could get.

Again we are comparing a player from a top-3 offensive team who peaked during the early 80s (~8.0 GPG era) to a player on a bottom-3 offensive team who peaked around 1990 (~7.5 GPG era). It should go without saying that the raw statistical gap between them shouldn't be taken at face value.

Look, I know scoring changed a little (let's go with the 7% you cited, that's probably close). But we're talking about a player in the higher scoring era outscoring the one in the lower scoring era by 30-40% based on the two calculations I did - raw, and age-adjusted.

I mean just look at the vsX that @Professor What posted above. It's pretty clear that there isn't actually anything close to a "40% higher PPG" type of gap between these guys.

Isn't it obvious why Francis looks closer in that stat? He was the #1 center and much better than anyone else on his team and on any other line! Who do you think was #2 for Quebec most years? An almost-as-good player, who did not play with Stastny at even strength. Of course it would be harder to outscore Michel Goulet by a wide margin, than John Anderson or whoever. Also, 14% of a high number is a lot more than 17% of a low number. The collaboration scores say a lot more than this. Stastny was scoring 1.49 PPG with players who averaged 0.84. Francis was scoring 1.15 with players who averaged 0.72. Did he have less help? Yes, clearly, but one guy did 30-40% more with 20% more help.

Why are we holding top-10s as a standard against a player who finished 11th and 12th, and promoting raw PPG over vsX when comparing guys who peaked at different times?

Hey, the only time I brought up top-10s was because I was comparing the times Stastny was a top-10 scorer in the 80s to the times Francis was in the 90s. I don't care if Francis missed the top-1o by a point or two, that's great for him, sure, 11th or 12th is basically 10th in most cases. But four times Stastny scored 15-30 points more than what it would even take to crack the top-10.

I'm all for comparing the VsX of any players but it is not an apples to apples comparison when one of those players is Francis. At best, Francis' 1995-1998 scores need to be chopped to his best non-Pittsburgh score to even approximate his true offensive ability.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Ron Francis was the only 90+ point scorer on Hartford/Carolina between Stoughton in 1982 and Staal in 2006.

but he's also one of four 89 point scorers between stoughton and staal

 

[seventieslord]

Top 7 team VsX seasons for Stastny in Quebec and Francis in Hartford:

Stastny
143.3
118.1
117.3
109.0
105.8
105.3
104.7
Average: 114.8

Francis
150.0
130.6
118.4
117.7
113.5
97.5
95.4
Average: 117.6

Francis scores slightly higher in the average, but it's very close, and with there seeming to be a general agreement that Stastny played on noticeably stronger squads, I find Stastny's results here to be quite a bit more impressive. I'm certainly not bagging on Francis, since I think the guy was awesome, but he wasn't on Stastny's level purely offensively. The case for him has a lot more to do with defense and his two-way game, and it's very vaild. Stastny wins offense alone easily. As I said earlier, I don't have any problem either way they're ranked, but I think the logic behind the arguments has to be framed properly.

(with Goulet removed)

Stastny
143.3
118.1 (134.7)
117.3 (164.9)
109.0
105.8
105.3 (125.0)
104.7 (154.2)
and a 150.6 from 83-84
and a 124.2 from 86-87

Average: 114.8 (142 in his updated best 7)

I mean come on, the the numbers you presented aren't incorrect or anything, but someone just took them and used them to apparently say that when Stastny only outscored Goulet by 5 points in 87-88 (111-106) he wasn't as statistically impressive as Francis was the time he outscored Blaine Stoughton 90 to 76.

 

[Professor What]

(with Goulet removed)

Stastny
143.3
118.1 (134.7)
117.3 (164.9)
109.0
105.8
105.3 (125.0)
104.7 (154.2)
and a 150.6 from 83-84
and a 124.2 from 86-87

Average: 114.8 (142 in his updated best 7)

I mean come on, the the numbers you presented aren't incorrect or anything, but someone just took them and used them to apparently say that when Stastny only outscored Goulet by 5 points in 87-88 (111-106) he wasn't as statistically impressive as Francis was the time he outscored Blaine Stoughton 90 to 76.

Well, doing so was taking my post out of context. The comments I posted afterwards pointed out that the two were more or less dead even in raw stats when Stastny did what he did relative to tougher "competition" on his teams. That was being acknowledged by all parties involved, so I just presented it as it was with that fact being a given. So, to stress again: Stastny was far ahead of Francis when viewing nothing but offense. The argument for Francis comes from his much stronger defensive play.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hey, I have a stat for that too. In every season I give a player a "Run/Gun" score that is simply the sum of goals for and against his team had, versus the averages. Over 8 seasons, Stastny's Norqiques saw 0.75% more goals go both ways than average. (broken down, they were 3.5% better than average offensively and 2.0% better than average defensively, plus or minus annual rounding I suspect). Basically, they were not a run and gun team, they were almost as close to average over 8 years as a team could get.

In Stastny's peak seasons (82 and 83), the Nords had these finishes (in the lowest-scoring division of a 21-team league):

4th GF, 14th GA
3rd GF, 16th GA

You're saying they were not a run-and-gun team?

Look, I know scoring changed a little (let's go with the 7% you cited, that's probably close). But we're talking about a player in the higher scoring era outscoring the one in the lower scoring era by 30-40% based on the two calculations I did - raw, and age-adjusted.

And again, I'm not disputing that there is an offensive gap between the two of them. I'm disputing that the gap is anything like 30%-40%.

In modern terms that's like the difference between Connor McDavid and Mike Hoffman. No, I do not think that is a realistic portrayal of the actual gap between Stastny and Francis.

Isn't it obvious why Francis looks closer in that stat? He was the #1 center and much better than anyone else on his team and on any other line! Who do you think was #2 for Quebec most years? An almost-as-good player, who did not play with Stastny at even strength. Of course it would be harder to outscore Michel Goulet by a wide margin, than John Anderson or whoever. Also, 14% of a high number is a lot more than 17% of a low number. The collaboration scores say a lot more than this. Stastny was scoring 1.49 PPG with players who averaged 0.84. Francis was scoring 1.15 with players who averaged 0.72. Did he have less help? Yes, clearly, but one guy did 30-40% more with 20% more help.

And Francis was also playing defense while doing that, and was a pass-first playmaker who rarely played with anyone who was a threat to score, on a team that struggled to take the puck away from its opponent.

Again, I'm not litigating the statistics. I'm asking people to apply what they know about the game of hockey to the statistics and ask if they actually make sense.

At best, Francis' 1995-1998 scores need to be chopped to his best non-Pittsburgh score to even approximate his true offensive ability.

I recognize that Francis' Pittsburgh numbers are juiced, but it seems a bit unfair to say we draw an absolute line at what he produced with Hartford and never allow him to cross it.

It should go without saying that there's a middle ground where we imagine him having normal offensive support and putting up significantly better numbers than he did with highly unfavorable support.