Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[quoipourquoi]

• Eligibility
  • Players will be judged only on their performance as hockey players
  • Currently active players are eligible, but will be judged only on what they have already accomplished

• Preliminary Discussion Thread
  • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he or she or they do not intend to take part in the voting round
  • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
  • For instance, did you know Alexei Kovalev is a pilot? He even convinced his wife to let him buy his first airplane by pretending to be interested in getting a motorcycle. Unrelated to this project, but when forming a roster to take on a team of space aliens, you may want Kovalev as a healthy scratch in case you need to fly away in a UFO
  • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for the voting round
  • Please do not rank players outright in the preliminary thread

• Voting
  • Round 1
    • All participants submit a list of 220 players ranked in order, with all positions included
    • Players who were ranked in the previous top-100 project are to be included in your list, provided you believe them to be among the top-220 players of all-time
    • Previous participants may re-use their 120-player list from 2018 and merely add an additional 100 players
    • Both new and previous participants may use the ranked players from the 2019 project as their 1-100 and merely add an additional 120 players
    • All eras are to be considered
    • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Tim Thomas, not Timothy Thomas Jr.; Corey Perry, not Cornelius Worm Perry
    • Lists may be submitted via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Deadline for list submission is December 18
    • Players will be assigned a point value on each list based on ranking. A 1st-place vote is equal to 220 points. A 2nd-place vote is equal to 219 points. A 220th-place vote is equal to 1 point.
    • An aggregate list will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
    • Participants must submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible to vote in Round 2
  • Round 2
    • The top-15 ranked players from the aggregate list who were not ranked in the previous project will be posted in a thread
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
    • Final voting will occur for two days via PM. A 1st-Place vote is equal to 10 points. A 2nd-Place vote is equal to 9 points. A 10th-Place vote is equal to 1 point. Unranked players receive 0 points.
    • The top-5 players will be added to the final list, unless there is a clear break (1.5 points per ballots cast) in voting after the top-3 players. Note that this is a modification of a rule from the previous project, which mandated the break occur after the top-4 players and did not have a set number of points to trigger the rule
    • We will add players that tie for 5th, and their ranks will be reflective of most 1st place votes, 2nd place votes, 3rd place votes, etc. This was not a rule from the previous project but rather was implemented following the Lalonde/Yzerman tie.
    • We will not play catch-up after adding just 3-4 players or adding 6-7 players. The subsequent vote will still be for the top-5 players. Because of this, Round 2 may last slightly longer or slightly shorter than the projected 20 weeks
    • The process repeats until we have a list of 100 players
    • Failure to retain an acceptable level of discussion may lead to an abbreviated list of no fewer than 25 players

• Quality Assurance
  • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
  • This is not meant to deter participation; we merely want to ensure that voters are considering all eras of hockey's history
  • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
  • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice. Alternatively, you may be subjected to getting fired out of a cannon. Towards the moon
  • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
  • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I hope all participants keep the HOH Top Players by position lists in mind when compiling their lists. This is NOT to say that you need to follow the lists, just that they are probably the best resource out there to check your list against for omissions by accident or oversight.

Links to those lists are contained here (scroll down): Top Players of All Time Lists

The vast majority of players on our list should be players discussed in previous projects. The major exceptions of course would be players who added significantly to their resumes in the last 10 years or so.

This thread right here is a great place to start discussing any players not contained in the Top Players by Position lists who you think other voters should consider including. IMO, that is the main purpose of a preliminary thread like this.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Be disillusioned no more, @buffalowing88

 

[ted2019]

I want to start and ask what does everyone think about Rick Middleton.
(From vecens24 ATD Bio)
Voting overall:
2nd Team All Star at RW (Post Season) 1982.
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy winner 1982.
Hart: 4, 8
All-Star voting: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 7,
Lady Byng: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 9
Selke: 4, 9, token voting two years
Member of Team Canada for the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cup series.
Co-Captain (for home games) of the Boston Bruins with Raymond Bourque 1985-1988.
Tied with Ken Hodge for the Bruins points record by a RW with 105.
Holds the Bruins record for most points in a playoff year with 33.
Boston Three-Stars Leader: 1978-79, 1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84

Regular Season:
Finished top 10 in goals three times and in points twice.
12 times scored 20+ goals, 8 times 30+ goals, 5 times 40+ goals.
Recorded 5 consecutive 40+ goal and 90+ point seasons during his prime, twice reaching 100 points.
Hit the magical 50 goal mark in 1982 with his career high of 51 goals.
Career shooting percentage of 19.7 ranks 6th all time.

Playoffs:
Has 100 points in 114 career playoff games, including a monstrous 33 points in 17 games during 82-83.
During his big 1983 run, Middleton set the record for most points in a single playoff series with 19 against Buffalo.
His Bruins reached the Stanley Cup finals 3 times (77,78,88) but ran up against dynasty teams in the finals each time.

Quotes:

"You just continue to talk in superlatives," said Boston coach Gerry Cheevers of Middleton. "He's unbelievable. It's not just the goals he scores. He should be the cinch winner of the Selke Trophy for the best defensive forward."​

- Calgary Herald (AP) Apr 21, 1983

Middleton credits much of his success in hockey to Cherry, who very early in his career encouraged him to work on his defense. Without a doubt, Middleton was one of very few players in the NHL who was strong on both the power-play and as a penalty killer.​

- Legends of Hockey

"He's the best player in the league at his position," Brad Park said. "I've seen all the forwards and I can't see one who can compare with him right now."​

- The Windsor Star (CP), Feb 2, 1981 (Park reacting to an all-star game snub of Middleton)

Gretzky praised his line-mate Rick Middleton for the work he did in the corners. In fact, it was Middleton's diligence that setup Perreault for the key goal of the final period.​

- Ottawa Citizen (CP) Aug 25, 1981 (Canada Cup Series)

"Rick Middleton is a superstar of the brightest magnitude. He and Wayne Gretzky (of Edmonton) have been our two best players" said coach Scotty Bowman​

- Boston Globe Aug 30, 1981 (Canada Cup Series)
Sports Illustrated article on Middleton, March 30, 1981:

Defenseman Brad Park, a five-time All-Star who is now in his 14th NHL season, says, "I've seen them all, and Nifty's the best one-on-one player in hockey. Take anyone in the league, give Nifty the puck, and 90% of the time he'll turn the other guy inside out."
Combining superb quickness and stickhandling with unusual balance and instinct, Middleton, a forward, not only is one of the league's most stylish players, but also is emerging, in his seventh season, as a scorer.
Middleton logs more ice time than any Bruin except defense-men Park and Ray Bourque. He works the power play, kills penalties and protects late leads. The opposition keys on Middleton, too, because he's Boston's only genuine threat to "create" a goal: for the most part the other Bruins qualify as muckers, members of the so-called Lunchpail A.C., who score on goal-mouth tip-ins, rebounds or unintentional deflections.
Jim Craig, the U.S. Olympic hero who's now Boston's No. 3 goal-tender, says that of all the scorers he has faced, Middleton's the most talented at giving the puck, taking it away and then sliding it into the net—right between the goalie's legs.​

The Pittsbrugh Press, January 23, 1979, Don Cherry:

This guy is starting to come on like Guy Lafleur. He’s not as good as Lafleur, but he’s as exciting. He’s our spark right now and he must be a defenseman’s nightmare.​

 

[BenchBrawl]

I hope all participants keep the HOH Top Players by position lists in mind when compiling their lists. This is NOT to say that you need to follow the lists, just that they are probably the best resource out there to check your list against for omissions by accident or oversight.

Links to those lists are contained here (scroll down): Top Players of All Time Lists

The vast majority of players on our list should be players discussed in previous projects. The major exceptions of course would be players who added significantly to their resumes in the last 10 years or so.

This thread right here is a great place to start discussing any players not contained in the Top Players by Position lists who you think other voters should consider including. IMO, that is the main purpose of a preliminary thread like this.

Ignoring the last 10 years, two that comes to mind are Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau. Defensive forwards are the only niche that would qualify for your category IMO. That, and maybe a few centers that can overtake wingers/defensemen at the tail end.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Active players of note (not already included in the Top 100):

Shea Weber
Patrice Bergeron
Brad Marchand
Jonathan Toews
Ryan Getzlaf
Anze Kopitar
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist
Carey Price
Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman
Steven Stamkos

---

Connor McDavid (please don't go there for 7 pages)

 

[BenchBrawl]

• • For instance, did you know Alexei Kovalev is a pilot? He even convinced his wife to let him buy his first airplane by pretending to be interested in getting a motorcycle. Unrelated to this project, but when forming a roster to take on a team of space aliens, you may want Kovalev as a healthy scratch in case you need to fly away in a UFO

I knew

On a related note, did you know that Frank Fredrickson was Albert Einstein's friend during his time in Princeton? IIRC they shared a passion for the violin.

 

[ted2019]

Active players of note (not already included in the Top 100):

Shea Weber
Patrice Bergeron
Brad Marchand (?)
Jonathan Toews
Ryan Getzlaf
Anze Kopitar
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist (?)
Carey Price (?)
Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman (?)

---

Connor McDavid (please don't go there for 7 pages)

Weber ( possible)
Bergeron ( yes)
Marchand ( no)
Toews ( possible)
Getzlaf ( doubt it)
Doughty ( maybe)
Lundqvist ( yes)
Price ( possible)
Karlsson ( not in my top 100)
Hedman ( maybe)

 

[ted2019]

Other active players of note:
Pekka Rinne
Nikita Kucherov
Nicklas Backstrom
Patrick Marleau
Anze Kopitar
Ilya Kovalchuk
Steven Stamkos

 

[edinson]

Ignoring the last 10 years, two that comes to mind are Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau. Defensive forwards are the only niche that would qualify for your category IMO. That, and maybe a few centers that can overtake wingers/defensemen at the tail end.

Also, pre-1900 players. I don't think any of them made the positional lists. Not sure any of them should make the top 200 either but some may deserve consideration at least. Link to a recent thread with discussion: Discussion: Who were the 10 best players 1895-1900?

Active players of note (not already included in the Top 100):

Shea Weber
Patrice Bergeron
Brad Marchand
Jonathan Toews
Ryan Getzlaf
Anze Kopitar
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist
Carey Price
Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman

---

Connor McDavid (please don't go there for 7 pages)

Steven Stamkos belongs in this group as well.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Also, pre-1900 players. I don't think any of them made the positional lists. Not sure any of them should make the top 200 either but some may deserve consideration at least. Link to a recent thread with discussion: Discussion: Who were the 10 best players 1895-1900?



Steven Stamkos belongs in this group as well.

1) Harvey Pulford did make the defensemen list at 60th. I don't see anyone else deserving of making it.

2) OK. I will add him (even if I wouldn't rank him).

 

[edinson]

1) Harvey Pulford did make the defensemen list at 60th. I don't see anyone else deserving of making it.

You're right but a good part of his career was post-1900. Similar to Russel Bowie. I can see opinions on the pre-1900 players vary a lot among voters. Many will leave them off entirely whereas some people may rank them fairly high. Similar to the defensive forward niche-group that you brought up.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I want to start and ask what does everyone think about Rick Middleton.
(From vecens24 ATD Bio)
Voting overall:
2nd Team All Star at RW (Post Season) 1982.
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy winner 1982.
Hart: 4, 8
All-Star voting: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 7,
Lady Byng: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 9
Selke: 4, 9, token voting two years
Member of Team Canada for the 1981 and 1984 Canada Cup series.
Co-Captain (for home games) of the Boston Bruins with Raymond Bourque 1985-1988.
Tied with Ken Hodge for the Bruins points record by a RW with 105.
Holds the Bruins record for most points in a playoff year with 33.
Boston Three-Stars Leader: 1978-79, 1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84

Regular Season:
Finished top 10 in goals three times and in points twice.
12 times scored 20+ goals, 8 times 30+ goals, 5 times 40+ goals.
Recorded 5 consecutive 40+ goal and 90+ point seasons during his prime, twice reaching 100 points.
Hit the magical 50 goal mark in 1982 with his career high of 51 goals.
Career shooting percentage of 19.7 ranks 6th all time.

Playoffs:
Has 100 points in 114 career playoff games, including a monstrous 33 points in 17 games during 82-83.
During his big 1983 run, Middleton set the record for most points in a single playoff series with 19 against Buffalo.
His Bruins reached the Stanley Cup finals 3 times (77,78,88) but ran up against dynasty teams in the finals each time.

Quotes:

"You just continue to talk in superlatives," said Boston coach Gerry Cheevers of Middleton. "He's unbelievable. It's not just the goals he scores. He should be the cinch winner of the Selke Trophy for the best defensive forward."​

- Calgary Herald (AP) Apr 21, 1983

Middleton credits much of his success in hockey to Cherry, who very early in his career encouraged him to work on his defense. Without a doubt, Middleton was one of very few players in the NHL who was strong on both the power-play and as a penalty killer.​

- Legends of Hockey

"He's the best player in the league at his position," Brad Park said. "I've seen all the forwards and I can't see one who can compare with him right now."​

- The Windsor Star (CP), Feb 2, 1981 (Park reacting to an all-star game snub of Middleton)

Gretzky praised his line-mate Rick Middleton for the work he did in the corners. In fact, it was Middleton's diligence that setup Perreault for the key goal of the final period.​

- Ottawa Citizen (CP) Aug 25, 1981 (Canada Cup Series)

"Rick Middleton is a superstar of the brightest magnitude. He and Wayne Gretzky (of Edmonton) have been our two best players" said coach Scotty Bowman​

- Boston Globe Aug 30, 1981 (Canada Cup Series)
Sports Illustrated article on Middleton, March 30, 1981:

Defenseman Brad Park, a five-time All-Star who is now in his 14th NHL season, says, "I've seen them all, and Nifty's the best one-on-one player in hockey. Take anyone in the league, give Nifty the puck, and 90% of the time he'll turn the other guy inside out."
Combining superb quickness and stickhandling with unusual balance and instinct, Middleton, a forward, not only is one of the league's most stylish players, but also is emerging, in his seventh season, as a scorer.
Middleton logs more ice time than any Bruin except defense-men Park and Ray Bourque. He works the power play, kills penalties and protects late leads. The opposition keys on Middleton, too, because he's Boston's only genuine threat to "create" a goal: for the most part the other Bruins qualify as muckers, members of the so-called Lunchpail A.C., who score on goal-mouth tip-ins, rebounds or unintentional deflections.
Jim Craig, the U.S. Olympic hero who's now Boston's No. 3 goal-tender, says that of all the scorers he has faced, Middleton's the most talented at giving the puck, taking it away and then sliding it into the net—right between the goalie's legs.​

The Pittsbrugh Press, January 23, 1979, Don Cherry:

This guy is starting to come on like Guy Lafleur. He’s not as good as Lafleur, but he’s as exciting. He’s our spark right now and he must be a defenseman’s nightmare.​

He's on my list.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Active players of note (not already included in the Top 100):

Shea Weber
Patrice Bergeron
Brad Marchand
Jonathan Toews
Ryan Getzlaf
Anze Kopitar
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist
Carey Price
Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman
Steven Stamkos

---

Connor McDavid (please don't go there for 7 pages)

McDavid is a must.

First full four seasons, 2 time scoring champ, 2 time runner-up. Not as good as Gretzky, but...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Bergeron, Doughty, and Karlsson made my top 120 from the previous project...

I'll try to help where time allows, but those Leafs teams of the 50's and 60's get a little underrated around here because of their defensive nature...I had George Armstrong at 120. Hopefully he gets some time here...

 

[ted2019]

Non-NHL Europeans that will be on my list somewhere that already didn't make the last 100 project.
Alexander Maltsev
Vladimír Martinec
Jiří Holeček
Valeri Vasiliev
Václav Nedomanský
Jan Suchý
Vladimir Petrov
Igor Larionov

Other possible candidates:
František Pospíšil
Vladimir Krutov
Sven "Tumba" Johansson
Alexei Kasatonov
Vladimír Dzurilla
Alexander Ragulin
Alexander Yakushev
Milan Nový

 

[ted2019]

McDavid is a must.

First full four seasons, 2 time scoring champ, 2 time runner-up. Not as good as Gretzky, but...

McDavid will be somewhere within the top 150 for me.

 

[ted2019]

Bergeron, Doughty, and Karlsson made my top 120 from the previous project...

I'll try to help where time allows, but those Leafs teams of the 50's and 60's get a little underrated around here because of their defensive nature...I had George Armstrong at 120. Hopefully he gets some time here...

I will have him high on the 2nd part of my list. Karlsson has dropped a bit for me , but will be on my top 140 or so. Doughty is an interesting one for me. He's been on bad, rebuilding Kings team the last 2 seasons. Should he be penalized because of this? Also, are you sending in a list Mr. Farkas?

 

[ted2019]

Also, want to throw this site up for those who might not know about it for possible new voters. It's the best site for USSR players spanning 1954-1991.
CCCP Hockey International: 1954-1991

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Non-NHL Europeans that will be on my list somewhere that already didn't make the last 100 project.
Alexander Maltsev
Vladimír Martinec
Jiří Holeček
Valeri Vasiliev
Václav Nedomanský
Jan Suchý
Vladimir Petrov
Igor Larionov

Other possible candidates:
František Pospíšil
Vladimir Krutov
Sven "Tumba" Johansson
Alexei Kasatonov
Vladimír Dzurilla
Alexander Ragulin
Alexander Yakushev
Milan Nový

Krutov and Pospisil both over Larionov for me

 

[Michael Farkas]

I will have him high on the 2nd part of my list. Karlsson has dropped a bit for me , but will be on my top 140 or so. Doughty is an interesting one for me. He's been on bad, rebuilding Kings team the last 2 seasons. Should he be penalized because of this? Also, are you sending in a list Mr. Farkas?

I'm gonna try. I'll start trying to lay the foundation for a list. But I won't know whether I can fully participate or not...if we're stuck in a situation for scouting where we're gonna cram a whole season into a three or four month window that overlaps with this, then I'll have to decline (but will try to discuss where I can)...but if I feel like I'll have the ability to contribute meaningfully, then I'll certainly play along full boat...

As things get sorted out with covid, I'll have a better idea about my level of participation in this...and for the record, I was one of the "maybes" in the original participation poll, so you're not potentially losing a "yes"...

Re: The recent Euro list, I had Pospisil very close to my top 100 if I recall...I think only that guy who has an eclectic lexicon and who types in different colors had him higher (ChiTownPhilly? That might be his handle...my misremembering is not intended to be disrespectful, of course)...

 

[ted2019]

Some more players to think about.
Didier Pitre
Mike Grant
Dan Bain
Duke Keats
Jack Walker
Graham Drinkwater
Alf Smith
Art Ross
Frank Patrick

 

[Professor What]

I'm being a little slow with my list since I'm checking and rechecking so much, but one thing I've found is that I've tended to rank the Eastern Bloc players higher than the original project did. During that project, was there often(ever) a feeling that some of those players might have fared better if they had come up earlier and that maybe a lack of name recognition, for lack of a better term, might have adversely affected them in the initial aggregate?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

What position do we use for Hobey Baker?

 

[ted2019]

What position do we use for Hobey Baker?

I would say Defenseman.