Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[Michael Farkas]

I do think Sid is a 10 out of 10 playoff performer. Or thereabouts. 10 out of 10 signifies perfection, so that's rough...but he's like a 9.5 if not a 10. He's a playoff hero.

You're just a raging anti-Czechite! Next thing ya know, you'll be saying the Slovaks should split away from them and isolate the Czechs in their country I bet...

 

[VanIslander]

It's said that the most talented position is center.

We have inducted 5 centers in the top 19 (and none since Crosby at 12).

Life as we know it requires 2 of the next 5 inductees to be centers.

 

[Michael Farkas]

7 d-men in the top 19...exactly how many I had...

Where do I collect my prize...?

 

[quoipourquoi]

7 d-men in the top 19...exactly how many I had...

Where do I collect my prize...?

I think the lightbulb went off in my head when TDMM pointed out that Denis Potvin was a non-controversial player. Just like Lidstrom was relative to Jagr. Just like Bourque was relative to Morenz and Crosby.

Selections and rankings swing on who has the greater and more vociferous detractors, and Forwards and Goaltenders are going to be more vulnerable to statistical arguments that can paint a negative light than what we’ll probably see for any Defenseman.

 

[ted2019]

7 d-men in the top 19...exactly how many I had...

Where do I collect my prize...?

I suck, I only had 6 d-men.

 

[ted2019]

Since others have chimed in I'll say this.

Jagr's career value almost entirely centers around the regular season. He chased points while never adapting his game to make the team better. And then in the postseason his production plunged. Often. At least Guy Lafleur was a demon in the playoffs. Same with Esposito.

Art Ross trophies never excited me much. At least not on the surface.

To be fair, when Jagr went to the Rangers and had those 2 great years back to back, the top center was Michael Nylander as the top man in 2005/06 and Nylander/Straka hybrid the following season. Not exactly Mario or Gretzky there. (even though Nylander called himself the Swedish Gretzky)

 

[sr edler]

Nylander called himself the Swedish Gretzky

What? He did? I’m not saying I distrust you (because it sounds like something he could have said, even unironically), I’ve just never heard/seen it.

I actually thought about asking that question on the Swedish hockey subforum, why the southern parts of the greater Stockholm suburban area has produced so many puck-skilled/kinda softish/me-first players (I’m thinking Kent Nilsson, M. Nylander, Kristian Huselius, Linus Klasen), but then I realized I already know the answer.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think the lightbulb went off in my head when TDMM pointed out that Denis Potvin was a non-controversial player. Just like Lidstrom was relative to Jagr. Just like Bourque was relative to Morenz and Crosby.

Selections and rankings swing on who has the greater and more vociferous detractors, and Forwards and Goaltenders are going to be more vulnerable to statistical arguments that can paint a negative light than what we’ll probably see for any Defenseman.

Constraints on comparables are factors. The ongoing Jagr issue is a by-product of not being able to compare playoff roles and results to Sundin and the Leafs or other contemporary situations.

 

[Theokritos]

Nylander called himself the Swedish Gretzky

why the southern parts of the greater Stockholm suburban area has produced so many puck-skilled/kinda softish/me-first players (...), but then I realized I already know the answer.

Do you care or dare to tell us your answer?

 

[sr edler]

Do you care or dare to tell us your answer?

Let’s just say it’s culturally related. I know that sounds vague, but this probably isn’t the right venue for a deeper dive. People from the capital city here are generally viewed as more cocky and self-centered than people from other parts of the country. I’m from here myself, but I’m just doing it tongue-in-cheekishly. I’m a team guy first.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Let’s just say it’s culturally related. I know that sounds vague, but this probably isn’t the right venue for a deeper dive. People from the capital city here are generally viewed as more cocky and self-centered than people from other parts of the country. I’m from here myself, but I’m just doing it tongue-in-cheekishly. I’m a team guy first.

All I'm gonna say in the vein of skilled but kinda softish is: Hammarby.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think the lightbulb went off in my head when TDMM pointed out that Denis Potvin was a non-controversial player. Just like Lidstrom was relative to Jagr. Just like Bourque was relative to Morenz and Crosby.

Selections and rankings swing on who has the greater and more vociferous detractors, and Forwards and Goaltenders are going to be more vulnerable to statistical arguments that can paint a negative light than what we’ll probably see for any Defenseman.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.

Quotes from everybody and his brother, numbers manipulated, double standards galore......

 

[VanIslander]

A Swedish Gretzky would never call himself the Swedish Gretzky.

(It's not a very Swedish thing to say, nor would someone like Gretzky say it.)

 

[blogofmike]

I do think Sid is a 10 out of 10 playoff performer. Or thereabouts. 10 out of 10 signifies perfection, so that's rough...but he's like a 9.5 if not a 10. He's a playoff hero.

You're just a raging anti-Czechite! Next thing ya know, you'll be saying the Slovaks should split away from them and isolate the Czechs in their country I bet...

Messier better be a 12.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm probably the biggest Crosby in this project and I don't think Sid is a 10 (out of 10) in the playoffs. He had a few pretty blah runs there in the middle of his career.

I have him about an 8.5-9 with room to get up to a 10 depending on how he and the Pens fare over the next 5 years or so.

 

[The Macho King]

I think the lightbulb went off in my head when TDMM pointed out that Denis Potvin was a non-controversial player. Just like Lidstrom was relative to Jagr. Just like Bourque was relative to Morenz and Crosby.

Selections and rankings swing on who has the greater and more vociferous detractors, and Forwards and Goaltenders are going to be more vulnerable to statistical arguments that can paint a negative light than what we’ll probably see for any Defenseman.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

I expect to see some shit flung Coffey's way. I think it's generally a one-way v. two-way player thing.

 

[VanIslander]

I just voted.

I was very relieved to see many of the decisions were not as tough as last round!

I still changed my mind about Ovechkin vs. Messier several times and had to put them next to each other in the ranking because I keep getting swayed by the various considerations. (If I was certain I'd be online this weekend I'd hold off voting, but it's right now after 8pm Friday night here and I'm leaving work and have no home computer at the moment and my Samsung S6 smartphone sometimes overheats/shuts down, not to mention runs out of battery power when I'm travelling on weekends.)

The top few and the bottom few were as distinctly different as night and day in my mind.

Anyways... have a good weekend guys!

 

[daver]

Jagr is what he is. A brilliant offensive only player who played on teams that chased points in the regular season because they were often in the bottom half/third of the league defensively. His numbers are inflated. And his shortcomings when games mattered most are quite telling. He finished above Messier who won more Hart trophies and actually played the game across all 3 zones, was a brilliant PK'er and was a TEN in the postseason as well as good to great for Canada. Same with Red Kelly who literally dominated defensively and was a really good F for a dynasty. And why? Because points and Art Ross trophies. Nothing more. Nothing less.

To be frank, I'm happy that somebody hasn't thrown out the xenophobic label on me yet. Then again, we nuked the political forum which would have me strung up by piano wire for not supporting a foreigner. But I'm an American, so most of these players are all foreigners

Anyway, I'm done with his. I've said as much as I can. Nothing is going to change our minds.

It's subjective narrative like this that keeps this conversation going. Is it Jagr's fault the team was bad defensively? What do you mean his numbers are inflated?

If you are insinuating that he would not have done as well on a team that was better defensively, how do you explain his 05/06 season on the 4th best defensive team?

 

[wetcoast]

It's said that the most talented position is center.

We have inducted 5 centers in the top 19 (and none since Crosby at 12).

Life as we know it requires 2 of the next 5 inductees to be centers.

I think the next round is going to be center heavy with some very impressive first timers being added.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's subjective narrative like this that keeps this conversation going. Is it Jagr's fault the team was bad defensively? What do you mean his numbers are inflated?

If you are insinuating that he would not have done as well on a team that was better defensively, how do you explain his 05/06 season on the 4th best defensive team?

I think his 05/06 season is probably his best season, all things considered given his age and where he was playing. Might be my favorite Jagr season of any.

But in Pittsburgh those teams were generally pretty porous defensively. The point is if you're giving up 4, 5, 6+ goals goals (or whatever the number was in the DPE) vs a team that gives up 2 or 3...you're game plan is going to be wide open offensive assaults to keep up.

Especially in the dead puck era, when teams sat on small leads. I remember the era very well. Games were often extremely slow and quite boring, at least given what you were used to in the decade plus prior. The Pens through the mid 90's to early 2000's gave up a lot of goals relative to other playoff teams.

96 they were 20th out of 26 teams in goals against
97 they were 25th out of 26
98 they somehow managed 4th out of 26....how I have no idea haha but impressive.
99 they fell back to 17th out of 27
00 they were 19th out of 28
01 they were 26th out of 30

-As you can see the Pens were giving up a ton of goals. Their teams weren't "awful" regardless because they always made the postseason and had the offensive firepower at F to outscore a lot of teams either way. But the simple reality is there was a need to score often because they gave up goals often. Would Jagr have put up the same numbers on NJ from 95 to 01? Probably not.

-Please do not think I am discrediting Jagr's offensive peak much. It's a pretty small knock for me. But it is something to point out in the grand scheme of the entire discussion.

 

[daver]

As you can see the Pens were giving up a ton of goals. Their teams weren't "awful" regardless because they always made the postseason and had the offensive firepower at F to outscore a lot of teams either way. But the simple reality is there was a need to score often because they gave up goals often. Would Jagr have put up the same numbers on NJ from 95 to 01? Probably not.

-Please do not think I am discrediting Jagr's offensive peak much. It's a pretty small knock for me. But it is something to point out in the grand scheme of the entire discussion.

I am assuming you have given every other candidate the "how would they have done on NJ from 95 to 01" test?

What conclusions did you draw?

 

[ImporterExporter]

I am assuming you have given every other candidate the "how would they have done on NJ from 95 to 01" test?

What conclusions did you draw?

It's pure hypothetical. I've never said otherwise.

The point is that when you're on a team that can't stop goals from going in, you need to score a bunch to win. And specifically in the dead puck era teams sat on 3rd period leads often. Teams weren't chasing goals then. Anyone who was old enough to understand the game then knows this. The Pens often had to chase goals against teams because they gave so many up in the first place.

Again, for the record, Jagr is still an elite offensive talent in the regular season. Never thought of him differently. My biggest issues with him are he only gave a shit about hockey in one zone (unlike somebody like Yzerman who adapted his game from offensive star to a balanced player to better serve the team) and more specifically dropped the ball in the playoffs as the preemptive best offensive talent in hockey through the DPE (unless Mario was playing of course). Withot Mario the Pens never made it past the 2nd round. Ever.

His time with the Caps was a joke. And in NY he got swept in round 1 (06) was awful with 1 damn point after dominating the regular season (super trend for him). And that NJ team had exactly 1 more point in the regular season than NY. NY was a better offensive and defensive team and got swept. Jagr was nowhere to be found.

07 he's out in round 2 again (granted Buffalo was a much better team) and he beat up on the friggin' Thrashers in round 1 and then disappeared in round 2.

 

[daver]

It's pure hypothetical. I've never said otherwise.

The point is that when you're on a team that can't stop goals from going in, you need to score a bunch to win. And specifically in the dead puck era teams sat on 3rd period leads often. Teams weren't chasing goals then. Anyone who was old enough to understand the game then knows this. The Pens often had to chase goals against teams because they gave so many up in the first place.

I don't understand why you feel this diminishes Jagr's point totals? It wasn't his role to play defense, it was to create offense. He measurably put the Pens in a position to win moreso than his peers at the time in the regular season, and as his playoff numbers show, did an admirable job there too, just not as good as a couple of others who were on better overall teams.

What else did you want from him?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just voted.

I was very relieved to see many of the decisions were not as tough as last round!

I still changed my mind about Ovechkin vs. Messier several times and had to put them next to each other in the ranking because I keep getting swayed by the various considerations. (If I was certain I'd be online this weekend I'd hold off voting, but it's right now after 8pm Friday night here and I'm leaving work and have no home computer at the moment and my Samsung S6 smartphone sometimes overheats/shuts down, not to mention runs out of battery power when I'm travelling on weekends.)

The top few and the bottom few were as distinctly different as night and day in my mind.

Anyways... have a good weekend guys!

Doesn't voting not open until tonight?

 

[The Macho King]

Doesn't voting not open until tonight?

People have been doing it on Friday. I guess it's mostly academic - although some people seem to think you get extra points for getting your ballot in early.