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Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

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Fenway said:
I was sidetracked with real world issues when this project began but I need to interject a dilemma I have.

For example who was the best defenseman in Bruins history? Orr wins that easily, but who is second?

I can make a strong case for Eddie Shore and it is safe to say the Bruins survived the Great Depression of the 30's mainly because of him.

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Orr is obviously #1 but I rank Bourque second and Shore third in Bruins history. Bourque is the second greatest defenseman of all time but I'd also have no problem if Shore/Harvey is/are ranked before Bourque.
 
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Killion said:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I rank him #2 not just in Bruins but in Hockey History as Greatest Defenceman All Time. Real Pioneer. Seminal player in the history of the game.
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This seems like a nice safe thread for a non-participant to gently chime in .... to me, Shore really took a beating in the main project thread, often for reasons that troubled me — not enough for me to interject, but still, a heavy sigh. In a nutshell, some posters knocked him down a few spots because they questioned his “style” of play, even though that “style” was perfectly suited to his era and was seen to be exceptional by both his contemporaries and those who followed. Extremely important player in the history of the game — not an Orr, but close behind.
 
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BadgerBruce said:
This seems like a nice safe thread for a non-participant to gently chime in .... to me, Shore really took a beating in the main project thread, often for reasons that troubled me — not enough for me to interject, but still, a heavy sigh. In a nutshell, some posters knocked him down a few spots because they questioned his “style” of play, even though that “style” was perfectly suited to his era and was seen to be exceptional by both his contemporaries and those who followed. Extremely important player in the history of the game — not an Orr, but close behind.
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Nicely put up. Deserves at least some kind of answer

Actually, Shore went UP from my initial list, pretty much exactly for what you're outlining at the end of your post. I had him much further in Round 1. Ranking him 24th was, in retrospect, a bit harsh.

But there's no going around the fact he had the worse playoff resume of all players available, and I can't quite think of a player who's gonna have a resume similar (or worse) than him up until Glenn Hall becomes available for voting.
 
Not style. The unwavering commitment to a certain play despite the circumstances around him.

A quarterback who always throws a John Elway like rocket ball is fine generally...but it's not that helpful on a screen pass. You need to adapt to the game around you. That's why versatility and adaptability rate so highly for me...and why, consequently, Shore and Richard rated so much lower than the popular opinion...
 
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Mike Farkas said:
Not style. The unwavering commitment to a certain play despite the circumstances around him.

A quarterback who always throws a John Elway like rocket ball is fine generally...but it's not that helpful on a screen pass. You need to adapt to the game around you. That's why versatility and adaptability rate so highly for me...and why, consequently, Shore and Richard rated so much lower than the popular opinion...
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Stop criticizing my favorite QB of all time! Sexy Rexy!
 
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Yeah, Shore was a player who's style remained the same even though hockey was rapidly progressing away from what he may be best known for, and at times, especially in the playoffs, it cost Boston. I also think he benefited from rather weak competition among Dmen in the 1930's, at least in relation to era's that came after him. I still have him as a top 15 player of all time, but one that did drop a handful of spots from my original list.
 
Mike Farkas said:
Not style. The unwavering commitment to a certain play despite the circumstances around him.

A quarterback who always throws a John Elway like rocket ball is fine generally...but it's not that helpful on a screen pass. You need to adapt to the game around you. That's why versatility and adaptability rate so highly for me...and why, consequently, Shore and Richard rated so much lower than the popular opinion...
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Agreed.

Joe Montana was a 3-time Super Bowl MVP because he - like Tom Brady - adapted to the opposition and could beat a tough defensive team or a high-scoring one by shifting his focus and method with great skill.

Messier could dump and chase, bang and play dirty, or stickhandle and pass, crash the net or shoot from the slot.

Ovechkin, however tries to jam the round peg into the square hole, like a toddler unable to change tactics. I've seen OV go through phases of his career where he gets stuck in a style that the opposition can anticipate and counter come playoff time.
 
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BadgerBruce said:
This seems like a nice safe thread for a non-participant to gently chime in .... to me, Shore really took a beating in the main project thread, often for reasons that troubled me — not enough for me to interject, but still, a heavy sigh. In a nutshell, some posters knocked him down a few spots because they questioned his “style” of play, even though that “style” was perfectly suited to his era and was seen to be exceptional by both his contemporaries and those who followed. Extremely important player in the history of the game — not an Orr, but close behind.
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Wasnt following the convo here that closely but to be expected I guess as time & fortune, those who have followed.... not been kind to Eddie Shore. He was Doug Harvey before Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr before Bobby Orr. Long before these "kids" were even glints in their Pappy's eyes. He changed the way the position was played and had he not done so, entirely probable no Harvey, no Orr. He electrified the very game itself with his play and sure, villainous acts as a Player, later on as a Coach, Club Owner. One of if not the singularly most colorful & influential players the games ever known, will know.

Set whole new Benchmarks. Created the template as to what it takes to become a great Defenceman, player. The willingness to be selfless, self sacrificing & to be ever the opportunist while simultaneously being responsible to your teammates & to "team". That if you cant take it, dont dish it out. If you cant take it, get off the ice because if you dont, you may well find yourself carted off on a gurney or leaving zipped up in a body bag. New Rules. Eddys Rules. He along with Horner & others, they laid down those rails with their own blood, sweat, broken joints, limbs, teeth & severed ears.
 
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Mike Farkas said:
Not style. The unwavering commitment to a certain play despite the circumstances around him.

A quarterback who always throws a John Elway like rocket ball is fine generally...but it's not that helpful on a screen pass. You need to adapt to the game around you. That's why versatility and adaptability rate so highly for me...and why, consequently, Shore and Richard rated so much lower than the popular opinion...
Click to expand...

Touch and situational awareness matter.
 
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Killion said:
Wasnt following the convo here that closely but to be expected I guess as time & fortune, those who have followed.... not been kind to Eddie Shore. He was Doug Harvey before Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr before Bobby Orr. Long before these "kids" were even glints in their Pappy's eyes. He changed the way the position was played and had he not done so, entirely probable no Harvey, no Orr. He electrified the very game itself with his play and sure, villainous acts as a Player, later on as a Coach, Club Owner. One of if not the singularly most colorful & influential players the games ever known, will know.
.
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That seems a bit wrong to me. There were players who played somewhat similar to Shore before him; in fact, by all descriptions, Eddie Shore is basically a better, saner Sprague Cleghorn. But after him? Well... straight to Bobby Orr, more than 25 years later. One could argue that it's a thing of skill : someone like, I dunno, Ken Reardon maybe, could've been Eddie Shore had he been more skilled. But Kelly and Harvey definitely HAD skill... but didn't play like Shore at all.
 
MXD said:
Nicely put up. Deserves at least some kind of answer

Actually, Shore went UP from my initial list, pretty much exactly for what you're outlining at the end of your post. I had him much further in Round 1. Ranking him 24th was, in retrospect, a bit harsh.

But there's no going around the fact he had the worse playoff resume of all players available, and I can't quite think of a player who's gonna have a resume similar (or worse) than him up until Glenn Hall becomes available for voting.
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You’ve established parameters and seem committed to consistently working within them as you consider where individual players should be placed. That’s very much to your credit — in my view, not all participants are as disciplined.

We differ on Shore largely because I struggle a bit with the word “Top” in “Top 100 Players.” This is a minority view, but to me Shore is a genuine “great” and a “seminal” player. He’s “important” — more “important” than several players who are ranked above him.

But I didn’t say he was “better,” and my sense is that the overwhelming majority of project participants are comfortable with “Top= Best.” I don’t share that view, though I do respect it.

Btw, I do very much appreciate your observations in the project.
 
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MXD said:
That seems a bit wrong to me. There were players who played somewhat similar to Shore before him; in fact, by all descriptions, Eddie Shore is basically a better, saner Sprague Cleghorn. But after him? Well... straight to Bobby Orr, more than 25 years later. One could argue that it's a thing of skill : someone like, I dunno, Ken Reardon maybe, could've been Eddie Shore had he been more skilled. But Kelly and Harvey definitely HAD skill... but didn't play like Shore at all.
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It's crazy that Shore is a sane version of anyone...
 
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Shore got a severed ear because the foolish young 24 year old tried to show up the 34 year old tough veteran who was the new guy on the team in training camp.

Shore took a run at Billy Coutu, who was the Habs captain the year before and Sprague Cleghorn's partner in violent crime on the ice in Montreal for several years where they had been Stanley Cup champions. Coutu raised his stick instinctively and the two crashed into the boards, Shore getting the worst of it.

Later that season, in the Stanley Cup Finals, coach Art Ross said openly in the dressing room between periods that he would pay a bounty if someone would hit the ref. The coach was frustrated with some of the penalty calls in their series against the mighty Ottawa dynasty club. Loyal footsoldier Coutu went out and did the deed and was banned for life. Players objected and cited the fact that Ross had specified a dollar amount and actually had paid it afterwards. The NHL eventually overturned the lifetime ban a couple of years later when it all came out, but by then old Coutu had moved on in his life and never played again.
 
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ehhedler said:
Lady Byng detested Cleghorn ...
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Source?

Or is this an assumption/interpretation.

I AM interested in this.

(EDIT: Let me know if you ever come across a reference again.)

Cleghorn broke Nighbor's arm with a slash of his stick on February 1st, 1922 in Ottawa. Was she at that game? Maybe that had something to do with it? That same game Cleghorn sent Gerard out for a line of stitches and drove Denneny's face into the boards where it 'split open' and bled. Three future HHOFers injured at one man's hands/stick. Even the Habs coach was disgusted with his own player and suspended Cleghorn.
 
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If you want to do some extra reading on players that came before Eddie Shore and helped revolutionize the position, a good place to start is Moose Johnson. One of my favorite pre consolidation players. One of the guys I'll be excited to dig more info on when we get there. Absolute monster up and down the ice in the EARLY Montreal days (ECAHA/NHA) and then became, IMO, the best western region hockey defensemen ever in the PCHA.
 
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Claude Pepe Lemieux said:
No, I will not bend to their requests every time they will want it. I won't spoon feed them, they can get it themselves if they really want it.
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Let me make this clear as an administrator on this site: it wasn't intended as an optional request.

If you want to do that crap on the main board, feel free. We've got a higher standard here, and the discourse is intentionally more serious. And valuable.
 
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ehhedler said:
It still doesn’t locate a specific source there, just through books which claims "some accounts" or the like.
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  • Kennedy, Ryan, ed. (2010), "Blood Feuds: Hockey's Best-Ever Rivalries", The Hockey News, Transcontinental Books, ISBN 978-0-9813938-1-0

But seriously, @Bear of Bad News , @Theokritos ... Do you really want this to be the "standard" ? Honest question... Because, from where I'm standing from, it does appear we're asking (of Claude Pepe Lemieux) to meet a standard that absolutely no one else is asked to meet, and that doesn't seem quite right to me.
 
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