Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[Midnight Judges]

Because in a project like the top 100 players of all time, we're not talking about John Tavares, or Benn, or Stamkos, or any of the others you listed. None of those people are anywhere near top 100 material. Nor are they play making studs by any measure.

All of those players have reputations as good to very good playmakers. They're all top 20 players of this generation. For Ovechkin to match or exceed their APG over 1000+ games is a pretty good indicator (simultaneous with utterly crushing everyone in goals). Ovechkin is a very good passer of the puck. You don't get to 500+ assists otherwise.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Feels very strange to see Ovechkin pull off some of those passes that are admittedly very nice.

Every time I've seen him he's always came across as having tunnel vision. Especially with the NT.

 

[ImporterExporter]

All of those players have reputations as good to very good playmakers. They're all top 20 players of this generation. For Ovechkin to match or exceed their APG over 1000+ games is a pretty good indicator (simultaneous with utterly crushing everyone in goals). Ovechkin is a very good passer of the puck. You don't get to 500+ assists otherwise.

As I clearly showed above, part of the reason why Ovechkin has crushed people in goals is because he does shoot a vast more than anyone else. That's just simple math. His shooting % is solid for a guy taking those number of shots but in the grand scheme he's attempted thousands of more shots than anyone else since 06. Thousands.

Since 2005-2006

Shots on net:

1. Alex Ovechkin - 5041 - 12.6%

2. Eric STaal - 3476 - 11.4%

10. Sidney Crosby - 2943 - 14.5%

Total shots attempted since 2007-2008 (stat wasn't tracked prior to this. Pulled from hockey reference)

1. Alex Ovechkin - 8436 shots attempted

2. Eric Staal 5849

Sidney Crosby 4526

-The fact of the matter is Ovechkin is a volume scorer. Most elite goal scorers all time are. Check out how many times Bobby Hull led the league in shots. Howe led multiple times and shots weren't even tracked until he was 31. But nobody has led the league in shots as many times as 8. And the gap between him and 2nd place is, by my estimation, greater than anyone else.

Actually Mike Bossy and Guy Lafleur never once led the league in shots. Impressive, considering their goal scoring exploits.

And your highlight video doesn't show all that much. There are some very nice passes. Some that are, to me, just eh, solid but nothing to get up and go crazy about. And I don't put a ton of value in highlight videos anyway as they represent an extremely small sample size. There were what? About 20 different plays? You're talking about a guy who is 17th in assists per game among active players. Yes, in the grand scheme, that is great, given how many hockey players are playing today.

But most of the greatest players all time aren't so slanted in one direction, offensively speaking.

And again, we're not even discussing the fact that Ovechkin, by and large, has been a one way player his entire career, which is quite a bit different from most of his peers. Playing wing, also, is inherently easier than C in the NHL and comes with less responsibilities, especially in the defensive zone.

 

[Thenameless]

I like both goals and assists. But, when I step back and analyze which players are the best, and why they are the best, I come to the conclusion that the best assist guys are better than the best goal guys. No specific names need to be mentioned, but it should be obvious from looking at lists of all time great players. Great assist guys tend to also be great goal guys when they want to be, but they realize that being a force multiplier that makes their lesser teammates/linemates more dangerous is more conducive to winning. It makes teammates more effective by raising morale (4th liners love it when star players feed them easy goals). Everyone plays harder at defense and checking when they're given offensive opportunities. It's a team sport after all.

 

[Fantomas]

I don't know if this question was already asked here, but what makes Hull better than Ovechkin? I don't see it.

These two guys are so perfectly comparable right now. Ovechkin at 33 is the same age Hull was when he left the league. They have both played roughly the same amount of games in the NHL. They both have one cup and similar trophy cases. I want to know why Hull is 5th overall, while Ovechkin is not right next to him on the list.

 

[Fantomas]

I like both goals and assists.

I like both as well. But I do not like "points."

Makes as much sense as adding up goals with penalty minutes and then calling the sum result "points."

 

[Fantomas]

Ovechkin is a high volume shooter who excels at goal scoring and bring little else in the elite sense to his game.

I'm sure countless players could score at a similar rate if they focused solely on goal scoring and shot the puck at such a high rate.

What a gem.

 

[Fantomas]

I don't see how that's relevant seeing as how Ovechkin isn't an "only shoot" player, nor has he ever been.

Is it really a problem that Ovechkin is a shoot only player? I'm seeing a "shoot only" player ranked 5th overall on this list.

 

[ted2019]

Is it really a problem that Ovechkin is a shoot only player? I'm seeing a "shoot only" player ranked 5th overall on this list.

To be fair, I'll post this.

Bobby Hull: Goals: 610 Assists: 560 ( NHL)
Goals: 303 Assists: 335 (WHA)

Alex Ovechkin: Goals: 636 Assists: 531

 

[Fantomas]

To be fair, I'll post this.

Bobby Hull: Goals: 610 Assists: 560 ( NHL)
Goals: 303 Assists: 335 (WHA)

Alex Ovechkin: Goals: 636 Assists: 531

The differences seem... negligible?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby is a 2 time Rocket winner.

Should be 3 as he was on pace for 64 goals in 2011 and that was 41 games so not a small sample size. That would have been as impressive as anything 8 did. Too bad some no name neanderthal had to run 87.

The only reason Crosby even has any rockets is because Ovechkin was injured in 2010 and 2017.

If I search your post history will I observe you arguing that Ovechkin should have had 3 consecutive Art Rosses/Rockets/Harts/Lindsays and 8-9 Rockets? If you hope to have any consistency on player rankings, you certainly must have done so.

I have never seen fans of any sport deploy alternate realities so religiously. It is, at best, problematic.

Crosby is one of the most balanced offensive players of all time. He's done it, largely with garbage compared to Ovechkin, who's skated with one of the best playmakers of this era, in Backstrom, at even strength, the bulk of his career.

Evgeny Malkin scores the goal or assists on 30+ percent of Crosby's points some seasons. I like how getting tons of ice time with the clear cut third best player of the generation is somehow spun into a huge disadvantage. Average first liners like Kunitz (who was a 60 point winger before going to Pittsburgh) and Patrick Hornquist (who scored 30 goals in Nashville) are AHL level scrubs. Or so we are told. Nevermind Guentzal.

Is Nick Backstrom even a top 25 player of this generation? That would probably make for a good debate.

Ovechkin has produced regardless of linemates - be it Ribiero, Kuznetsov, Kozlov, Backstrom, Zubrus, etc. Not coincidentally, each of them gets a substantial bump in their production when they play with Ovechkin.

Crosby would be a balanced player if he was good at defense and had substantial defensive responsibilities and if he was remotely physical.

Ever since Crosby's offense dropped off 5 years ago, people started pretending he was good at defense. I am just not seeing it, certainly didn't see it in the playoffs last season where he was MIA in his own zone while his team lost games.

Sid has also been responsible defensively and more recently garnering significant Selke votes because he's raising his defensive game, much in the progression of a Yzerman.

Sid can also deliberately smack a guy in the balls from behind with his stick, hack another guy's fingertip off, and then get Lady Byng "sportsmanship" votes two Months later.

Sid can get a Hart vote even when he's the 3rd best player on his own team (like last regular season).

Sid is a 'good Canadian boy' and enjoys all that it entails.

 

[bobholly39]

Is it really a problem that Ovechkin is a shoot only player? I'm seeing a "shoot only" player ranked 5th overall on this list.

Yeah i dont get the defensiveness about the "shoot only" player. Results count and he has countless results. Hes ccertainly more of a shoot only or "shoot first" player and i dont think thats a negative for Ov.

To answer your question about Hull vs Ov

1. Hull > Ov at the nhl level. In regular season and playoffs. Maybe not by a lot but its still edge to Hull

2. Hull was great in the WHA and has a lot of years. Theyre not worth as much as NHL seasons maybe but its still a decent add-on that widens the gap

3. There are a LOT of players in nhl history. Just because one is ranked 5 and one 22 doesnt mean they cant be close. I think based on my above 2 points the case for Hull > Ov is pretty clear (doesnt necessarily mean huge gap). A better discussion point from you would be to ask why Ov is behind other specific players who u think he should be above of where the comparison isnt as clear (please not Crosby - theres about a million other threads to discuss that =/ )

 

[Fantomas]

To answer your question about Hull vs Ov

1. Hull > Ov at the nhl level. In regular season and playoffs. Maybe not by a lot but its still edge to Hull

Why?

In another thread I provided stats that support the view that Ovechkin has outproduced Hull at least in the regular season. There is certainly food for thought here.

Hull's best statistical season produced 44 adjusted goals created in 65 games (in '65-66), while Ovechkin's best produced 53 adj goals created in 82 games ('07-08). On average that is only a slight edge to Hull (55.5 to 53), but considering that he missed 5 games that's pretty much a draw.

Taken together their stats are super close. Compare their adjusted stats for yourself: 1) Ovechkin: Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com and 2) Hull: Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull, who left the NHL at 33, finished with 639 adjusted goals and 586 adjusted assists in 1036 games. 508 total adjusted goals created.

Ovechkin at 33 has 752 adjusted goals, 594 adjusted assists in 1040 games. 572 total adjusted goals created.

In all all, Ovechkin has a great argument, even if we eliminate Hull's rookie season (at 19 years old) from consideration.

Also, by offensive point shares Ovechkin blows Hull out of the water in virtually the same amount of regular season games (1040 to 1036): 133.6 to Ovechkin, 116 to Hull.

3. There are a LOT of players in nhl history. Just because one is ranked 5 and one 22 doesnt mean they cant be close. I think based on my above 2 points the case for Hull > Ov is pretty clear (doesnt necessarily mean huge gap). A better discussion point from you would be to ask why Ov is behind other specific players who u think he should be above of where the comparison isnt as clear (please not Crosby - theres about a million other threads to discuss that =/ )

I don't think so. My point is that Ovechkin receives the kinds of criticisms about his game that Hull doesn't - even though Hull is almost an identical player. And is - for some reason - ranked #5 behind the big 4!

If Ovechkin is "shoot only" and "one-dimensional", why not say the same things about Hull? What makes Hull so teflon?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Is it really a problem that Ovechkin is a shoot only player? I'm seeing a "shoot only" player ranked 5th overall on this list.

The problem is that the descriptor is utterly false. Dishonestly so.

I don't have a problem with anyone calling Ovechkin a "shoot first" player.

 

[Fantomas]

The problem is that the descriptor is utterly false. Dishonestly so.

Sure.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I have Hull ahead of Ovechkin, but him at 5th does feel a little weird. From what I've been able to gather, he wasn't somekind of two-way monster. His playoffs don't awe you either. So what gives? I think Beliveau should be 5th for my money.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah i dont get the defensiveness about the "shoot only" player. Results count and he has countless results. Hes ccertainly more of a shoot only or "shoot first" player and i dont think thats a negative for Ov.

Really. You don't think it is a negative connotation to say a player cannot or does not pass the puck.

 

[Fantomas]

I have Hull ahead of Ovechkin, but him at 5th does feel a little weird. From what I've been able to gather, he wasn't somekind of two-way monster. His playoffs don't awe you either. So what gives? I think Beliveau should be 5th for my money.

I'm sorry to have missed the vote, but my pick would have been Bourque. Maybe the most underrated great player of all time.

Consistently great for ages but unlucky to have been perceived as not-a-winner because he wasn't on a dynasty team.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The only reason Crosby even has any rockets is because Ovechkin was injured in 2010 and 2017.

If I search your post history will I observe you arguing that Ovechkin should have had 3 consecutive Art Rosses/Rockets/Harts/Lindsays and 8-9 Rockets? If you hope to have any consistency on player rankings, you certainly must have done so.

I have never seen fans of any sport deploy alternate realities so religiously. It is, at best, problematic.



Evgeny Malkin scores the goal or assists on 30+ percent of Crosby's points some seasons. I like how getting tons of ice time with the clear cut third best player of the generation is somehow spun into a huge disadvantage. Average first liners like Kunitz (who was a 60 point winger before going to Pittsburgh) and Patrick Hornquist (who scored 30 goals in Nashville) are AHL level scrubs. Or so we are told. Nevermind Guentzal.

Is Nick Backstrom even a top 25 player of this generation? That would probably make for a good debate.

Ovechkin has produced regardless of linemates - be it Ribiero, Kuznetsov, Kozlov, Backstrom, Zubrus, etc. Not coincidentally, each of them gets a substantial bump in their production when they play with Ovechkin.

Crosby would be a balanced player if he was good at defense and had substantial defensive responsibilities and if he was remotely physical.

Ever since Crosby's offense dropped off 5 years ago, people started pretending he was good at defense. I am just not seeing it, certainly didn't see it in the playoffs last season where he was MIA in his own zone while his team lost games.

Sid can also deliberately smack a guy in the balls from behind with his stick, hack another guy's fingertip off, and then get Lady Byng "sportsmanship" votes two Months later.

Sid can get a Hart vote even when he's the 3rd best player on his own team (like last regular season).

Sid is a 'good Canadian boy' and enjoys all that it entails.

It's pretty comical how you bitch and moan about these biases but show your own bias every time you open your mouth (type nonsense). You'd be taken more seriously if you'd engage in a discussion that didn't always revolve around how 87 is some overrated "good ole boy" and Ovechkin gets shafted because he's a Putinbot. Or something along those lines.

First off, wasn't Ovechkin suspended....twice in 2010? Or are we going to pretend that being suspended for being a dirty player is the same thing as being run by a 4th line piece ooooo shit like Dave Steckel? Or am I way off base? Ovi missing games because the league sat him down gets less than 0 sympathy from me or anyone else. Crosby lost a sure 50+ goal season and possible 60+ in 2011 because some asshat ran him.

You referenced 2010. Crosby manged 51 goals on only 298 shots. Ovechkin, needed 368 to get 50. And 8 played 9 fewer games and still outshot Sid by 70!!! Simple math (and I'll be posting a thread about how Ovechkin's goal scoring is somewhat overrated later based on me studying shots on net, but more importantly missed shots) says that if Crosby was as shot crazed as 8 he'd be every bit the all time goal scorer 8 is.

So once again, you are made to look like a fool by trying to conflate missing games because of suspension vs missing games because trash players decided to run a superstar.

And that's the thing. When Sid dialed up the shots and decided to take more of the goal scoring onus himself, he proved to be an elite goal scorer. It's just that his vision and hockey sense is among the greatest of all time and has almost always been, to a fault, a very unselfish player. I mean, can I complain? Nope. 4 Cup final trips, 3 wins. Been past the 2nd round 5 times by the age of 30. Seems to have worked out pretty well.

Secondly, Malkin and Sid almost never play together."Clear ice time". Jesus, you really do love throwing crap at the wall while hoping nobody notices the smell.

I've been watching just about every Penguin game for decades bub. Occasionally, early in their careers they'd skate a few shifts together, but it was very sparse. Your math is suspect, one, and two, even if it were to check out, we're talking about production stemming from the PP. Something that Sid has needed less of to score points over his career vs Ovechkin. Fact.

Glossary of Terms:

SFrac: Season Fraction. 1.00 is a full season. I prefer it to games played because it gives a 48 game season, a 74 game season, an 80 game season or an 82 game season the same weight.
$ESGF: Even-strength goals for, normalized to a 200 ESG scoring environment and with estimated SH goals removed.
$ESGA: Even-strength goals against, normalized to a 200 ESG scoring environment and with estimated SH goals removed.
R-ON: Even strength GF/GA ratio when the player is on the ice.
R-OFF: Even-strength GF/GA ratio when the player is off the ice.
XEV+/-: Expected even-strength plus-minus, which is an estimate of the plus-minus that an average player would post with the same teammates. The calculation is described above.
EV+/-: Even –strength plus-minus, which is simply plus-minus with estimated shorthanded goals removed and normalized to a 200 ESG environment.
AdjEV+/-: Adjusted even-strength plus-minus, which is even-strength plus-minus minus expected even-strength plus-minus. This is the final number.
The following three stats evaluate special teams play and are not related to adjusted plus-minus. I’m including them in the table for a quick reference to the player’s contributions outside of even-strength play.
PP% : The % of the team’s power play goals for that the player was on the ice for.
SH%: The % of the team’s power play goals against that the player was on the ice for.
$PPP/G: Power play points per game, normalized to a 70 PPG environment and with pre-1988 PP assists estimated.

Results
Here are the top 100 in career adjusted even-strength plus-minus, as well as the players in the HOH Top 100 and several others who were strongly considered for voting.

Rank	Player	GP	$ESGF	$ESGA	R-ON	R-OFF	EV%	EV+/-	XEV+/-	AEV+/-	AEV+/-/82
1	Jaromir Jagr	1711	1794	1332	1.35	0.93	40%	461	-69	530	25
2	Ray Bourque	1612	1691	1231	1.37	0.95	42%	460	-48	508	26
3	Bobby Orr	657	1044	526	1.99	1.03	49%	518	13	505	63
4	Wayne Gretzky	1487	1893	1492	1.27	1.04	47%	401	39	362	20
5	Larry Robinson	1384	1632	1022	1.60	1.34	43%	611	250	360	21
6	Nicklas Lidstrom	1564	1682	1189	1.41	1.17	41%	493	149	344	18
7	Joe Thornton	1446	1269	955	1.33	0.96	35%	314	-28	342	19
8	Teemu Selanne	1451	1232	1002	1.23	0.87	35%	230	-101	332	19
9	Mark Howe	929	939	628	1.50	0.96	39%	311	-20	330	29
10	Al MacInnis	1416	1397	992	1.41	1.11	38%	404	81	323	19
11	Stan Mikita	1393	1220	825	1.48	1.12	33%	395	73	323	19
12	Mario Lemieux	915	1092	883	1.24	0.84	46%	209	-110	319	29
13	Bobby Clarke	1147	894	498	1.80	1.20	30%	397	82	314	22
14	Eric Lindros	760	842	565	1.49	0.95	42%	276	-22	298	32
15	Borje Salming	1148	1206	1056	1.14	0.82	43%	150	-148	298	21
16	Dave Taylor	1111	876	671	1.30	0.84	30%	205	-86	291	21
17	Peter Forsberg	708	741	432	1.71	1.07	38%	309	24	285	33
18	Gordie Howe	921	919	724	1.27	0.85	36%	195	-89	284	25
19	Pavel Datsyuk	953	858	553	1.55	1.07	34%	305	30	275	24
20	Bryan Trottier	1279	1081	724	1.49	1.17	33%	357	90	267	17
21	Mike Bossy	752	732	408	1.80	1.17	36%	325	59	266	29
22	Sidney Crosby	782	848	602	1.41	0.96	41%	246	-18	264	28
23	Guy Lafleur	1126	1079	646	1.67	1.35	34%	432	168	264	19
24	Marcel Dionne	1348	1126	1019	1.10	0.80	35%	107	-156	263	16
25	Henrik Sedin	1248	951	707	1.35	0.98	31%	244	-12	255	17
26	John Leclair	967	868	586	1.48	1.08	35%	282	36	246	21
27	Daniel Sedin	1225	891	660	1.35	0.97	29%	231	-14	245	16
28	Larry Murphy	1615	1534	1275	1.20	1.02	39%	258	14	244	12
29	Denis Potvin	1060	1122	753	1.49	1.23	43%	369	127	242	19
30	Alex Tanguay	1088	945	713	1.33	1.00	35%	232	2	230	17
31	Scott Stevens	1635	1658	1265	1.31	1.19	42%	393	162	230	12
32	Brad Park	1115	1212	866	1.40	1.20	42%	345	125	221	16
33	Ron Francis	1731	1374	1249	1.10	0.89	34%	125	-95	220	10
34	Brad McCrimmon	1222	1041	726	1.43	1.18	34%	314	94	220	15
35	Chris Kunitz	884	705	471	1.50	1.05	31%	233	17	217	20
36	Brian Rafalski	833	823	583	1.41	1.05	38%	240	24	215	21
37	Chris Pronger	1167	1060	858	1.23	0.99	39%	201	-7	208	15
38	Frank Mahovlich	1048	1022	722	1.42	1.18	35%	300	94	206	16
39	Steve Shutt	930	790	436	1.81	1.45	29%	354	148	206	18
40	Sergei Fedorov	1249	1018	766	1.33	1.08	32%	252	47	206	14
41	Marian Hossa	1309	1026	758	1.35	1.12	30%	268	64	205	13
42	Ryan Getzlaf	861	740	546	1.35	0.98	36%	194	-7	199	19
43	Patrik Elias	1240	912	691	1.32	1.04	31%	220	23	198	13
44	Steve Larmer	1006	750	577	1.30	0.95	32%	173	-24	197	16
45	Brian Propp	1016	767	524	1.46	1.12	31%	243	49	195	16
46	Zigmund Palffy	684	615	502	1.23	0.80	37%	114	-80	194	23
47	Terry Harper	1066	1108	890	1.24	1.04	43%	218	25	193	15
48	Craig Ramsay	1070	694	462	1.50	1.12	25%	231	42	189	15
49	Keith Tkachuk	1201	992	895	1.11	0.87	36%	98	-88	186	13
50	Charlie Simmer	712	524	395	1.33	0.83	29%	130	-56	186	21
51	Gary Roberts	1224	960	723	1.33	1.10	31%	237	53	184	12
52	Chris Chelios	1651	1476	1152	1.28	1.18	39%	324	143	181	9
53	Bobby Hull	923	1004	729	1.38	1.18	40%	275	94	181	16
54	Lubomir Visnovsky	883	791	702	1.13	0.83	38%	88	-92	180	17
55	Jonathan Toews	717	666	456	1.46	1.09	34%	210	31	180	21
56	Jere Lehtinen	875	616	413	1.49	1.07	28%	203	23	180	17
57	Pierre Turgeon	1294	1042	839	1.24	1.04	33%	203	24	178	11
58	Luc Robitaille	1431	1204	1028	1.17	1.00	33%	175	-2	177	10
59	Kenny Wharram	667	611	405	1.51	1.10	31%	206	32	173	21
60	Brendan Shanahan	1524	1181	960	1.23	1.07	32%	221	49	172	9
61	Dmitri Khristich	811	608	472	1.29	0.90	30%	136	-35	171	17
62	Alex Ovechkin	921	890	702	1.27	1.03	39%	187	16	171	15
63	Carl Brewer	533	648	456	1.42	1.07	44%	193	23	170	26
64	Joe Sakic	1378	1272	1105	1.15	1.00	38%	167	-2	169	10
65	Daniel Alfredsson	1246	1010	818	1.23	1.04	33%	192	23	169	11
66	Milan Hejduk	1020	840	662	1.27	1.02	33%	178	9	169	14
67	Pierre Pilote	660	873	652	1.34	1.11	49%	221	52	169	21
68	Jarome Iginla	1554	1238	1143	1.08	0.91	36%	95	-73	169	9
69	Petr Svoboda	1047	812	622	1.31	1.05	32%	190	22	168	13
70	Michael Nylander	920	718	585	1.23	0.93	32%	133	-30	163	15
71	Jason Arnott	1244	963	792	1.22	1.01	32%	171	8	163	11
72	Michel Goulet	1089	812	688	1.18	0.92	32%	123	-39	163	12
73	Simon Gagne	822	600	446	1.34	0.98	29%	153	-7	161	16
74	Henrik Zetterberg	1000	872	672	1.30	1.08	35%	200	40	160	13
75	Marek Malik	691	582	441	1.32	0.95	34%	141	-18	159	19
76	Jean Ratelle	1280	1073	834	1.29	1.14	32%	239	81	158	10
77	Zdeno Chara	1350	1271	1062	1.20	1.07	39%	208	50	157	10
78	Marian Gaborik	989	756	624	1.21	0.95	34%	132	-25	157	13
79	Joe Reekie	902	716	604	1.19	0.91	35%	112	-40	153	14
80	Jacques Lemaire	852	811	484	1.68	1.52	33%	327	175	152	15
81	Theoren Fleury	1084	942	795	1.19	1.00	36%	147	-3	150	11
82	Joe Pavelski	806	592	445	1.33	1.00	31%	147	-1	149	15
83	Ron Stackhouse	889	893	853	1.05	0.82	42%	40	-110	149	14
84	Alexander Semin	650	521	402	1.30	0.91	31%	119	-30	149	19
85	Bill Hajt	854	813	584	1.39	1.19	37%	228	81	148	14
86	Patrice Bergeron	899	684	516	1.32	1.05	30%	168	20	148	13
87	Mike Foligno	1018	665	557	1.19	0.90	28%	107	-40	147	12
88	Ulf Samuelsson	1080	911	775	1.17	0.98	36%	135	-11	147	11
89	Cliff Ronning	1137	709	592	1.20	0.93	26%	117	-29	146	11
90	Steve Sullivan	1011	745	621	1.20	0.95	30%	124	-21	145	12
91	Mats Sundin	1346	1139	1024	1.11	0.96	35%	115	-28	143	9
92	Doug Gilmour	1474	1141	997	1.14	1.00	34%	144	1	143	8
93	Henri Richard	998	933	663	1.41	1.28	33%	270	129	141	12
94	Paul Kariya	989	834	743	1.12	0.91	38%	91	-51	141	12
95	Pavol Demitra	847	716	554	1.29	1.05	35%	162	22	140	14
96	Sergei Gonchar	1301	1113	1010	1.10	0.95	37%	104	-36	140	9
97	Keith Carney	1018	818	688	1.19	0.98	35%	131	-8	139	11
98	Martin St. Louis	1134	985	939	1.05	0.86	36%	46	-92	138	10
99	Jeremy Roenick	1363	989	822	1.20	1.05	32%	167	30	138	8
100	Sergei Zubov	1068	1042	827	1.26	1.14	42%	215	78	137	11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even Strength - Forwards

Player	GP	$ESP/82	$ESGF/82	$ESGA/82	R-ON	R-OFF	EV%
Wayne Gretzky	1487	86	104	82	1.27	1.04	47%
Mario Lemieux	915	80	98	79	1.24	0.84	46%
Eric Lindros	760	70	91	61	1.49	0.95	42%
Sidney Crosby	782	75	89	63	1.41	0.96	41%
Bobby Hull	923	70	89	65	1.38	1.18	40%
Jaromir Jagr	1711	67	86	64	1.35	0.93	40%
Pavel Bure	702	62	75	71	1.05	0.96	39%
Alex Ovechkin	921	62	79	63	1.27	1.03	39%
Ilya Kovalchuk	816	56	70	75	0.93	0.84	39%
Joe Sakic	1378	61	76	66	1.15	1.00	38%
Paul Kariya	989	54	69	62	1.12	0.91	38%
Rick Martin	685	50	72	66	1.08	1.20	38%
Adam Oates	1337	53	72	67	1.07	0.99	38%
Patrick Kane	740	61	77	64	1.21	1.16	38%
Evgeni Malkin	706	65	79	62	1.27	1.08	38%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Not only is Sid used more at even strength, the return he provides when he's on the ice vs off it is substantially better than Ovechkin.

"Balanced player if he was good defensively" or "remotely physical"?

What does being crazy physical have to do with being good defensively? Datsyuk was a finesse player through and through and was one of the greatest pure defensive players at ES. Anze Kopitar is less physical than Sid and is a 2 time Selke winner. One of the reasons why Crosby is as good as he is, is precisely because he doesn't mind being physical or taking punishment. He's one of the strongest players in the league on his skates. Yeah, he's not laying people out and isn't going to be the primary checker on a line, but saying he's not remotely physical is a joke.

I guess his line limiting Joe Thornton and Joe Pavelski's line to 1 empty net goal in the 2016 Cup finals wasn't that impressive? I mean who did Mike Sullivan have out there defending a 1 goal lead with less than 2 minutes to go in game 6 of said Cup finals? Who was the guy who blocked a shot from the point, gathering, then passing the puck to Pat Hornqvist for the game sealing ENG?

I mean who's the guy who's never been a minus player since his rookie year?

Not balanced? The dude has been in the top 10 in scoring and Selke voting 3 consecutive years.

And as I said before, offensively, among active players Crosby is first in assists per game and 4th in goals per game. I guess that isn't balanced?

I don't even need to bring up Ovechkin's resume as a balanced player, be it offensively or as a player who is relied on for anything defensively. It doesn't exist. And most folks already know that, thankfully.

 

[Fantomas]

Crosby manged 51 goals on only 298 shots. Ovechkin, needed 368 to get 50. And 8 played 9 fewer games and still outshot Sid by 70!!! Simple math (and I'll be posting a thread about how Ovechkin's goal scoring is somewhat overrated later based on me studying shots on net, but more importantly missed shots) says that if Crosby was as shot crazed as 8 he'd be every bit the all time goal scorer 8 is.

Is this kind of argumentation taken seriously here?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Is this kind of argumentation taken seriously here?

What's wrong with pointing out the obvious?

If player A, needs 70 more shots to get to the same goal scoring total as player B, who is the superior goal scorer?

People do realize that Ovechkin has taken about 3000 more total shots (shots on and off target) since 2007 than any other player in the league. Maybe not?

 

[sr edler]

Hörnqvist's nickname is not Pat but Bengan, stemming from his former surname Bengtsson.

 

[Nick Hansen]

If you've played any sport on a serious level, you realize that getting off a shot is hard. Not a minus in my eye, it is a plus. Impressive.

As per Gretzky's words:

Every shot you don't take, you miss.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Bizarre argument. So, hypothetically, if someone played today and won the Richard scoring 58 goals on 58 shots, that should be commended? Lol. Or 58 goals on 116 shots.

 

[Midnight Judges]

First off, wasn't Ovechkin suspended....twice in 2010? Or are we going to pretend that being suspended for being a dirty player is the same thing as being run by a 4th line piece ooooo **** like Dave Steckel? Or am I way off base? Ovi missing games because the league sat him down gets less than 0 sympathy from me or anyone else. Crosby lost a sure 50+ goal season and possible 60+ in 2011 because some asshat ran him.

You referenced 2010. Crosby manged 51 goals on only 298 shots. Ovechkin, needed 368 to get 50. And 8 played 9 fewer games and still outshot Sid by 70!!! Simple math (and I'll be posting a thread about how Ovechkin's goal scoring is somewhat overrated later based on me studying shots on net, but more importantly missed shots) says that if Crosby was as shot crazed as 8 he'd be every bit the all time goal scorer 8 is.

So once again, you are made to look like a fool by trying to conflate missing games because of suspension vs missing games because trash players decided to run a superstar.

In 2010 Ovechkin missed 6 games after getting hit by Raffi Torres. He was later (questionably) suspended twice for a total of 4 games.

Ovie was scoring .69 GPG and 1.51 PPG and lost the Rocket by 1 goal and the Art Ross by 3 points.

So again, if you want to be consistent and have integrity, you MUST make the case that Ovechkin would have won the Art Ross and Rocket (and Hart) in 2010.