Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[BenchBrawl]

With Bobby Hull at #5 and Ovechkin not even ranked, this list will look soooo bad after Ovy passes Hull in the number of Richards... (and that's pretty much all Hull has).

[MOD] Give it a rest.

 

[Michael Farkas]

(and that's pretty much all Hull has)

What else does Ovechkin have...?

 

[Captain Bowie]

With Bobby Hull at #5 and Ovechkin not even ranked, this list will look soooo bad after Ovy passes Hull in the number of Richards... (and that's pretty much all Hull has).

3 times as many Art Ross'?

 

[Sentinel]

3 times as many Art Ross'?

And Ovechkin has more Harts.

Plus for point totals purposes, Mikita and Pilote on PP >> Backstrom and Green.

 

[Michael Farkas]

By virtue of an undeserved one in the shortened 2013 season, and by discounting two that Hull won in the only semi-relevant years of the WHA...

 

[Captain Bowie]

And Ovechkin has more Harts.

Plus for point totals purposes, Mikita and Pilote on PP >> Backstrom and Green.

16-19* relevant quality seasons?

*Depending on how much credit you want to give for WHA years, but you have to give the first 3 at minimum.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Also, better passer, better defensively, probably escaped the first round a few more times too...

And, you love star power...forget credit cards, we're talking debit cards man, as Bobby Hull was the first million dollar man in hockey...shield your eyes from all this panache!

 

[ImporterExporter]

"Ovechkin has more Harts than Hull"

1. Only because Sid wasn't playing much hockey between 2011 and 2013. Fact.

2. Two, look at their actual Hart record, top to bottom.

Hull

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7

Ovechkin

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 9

-Ovechkins top end is a bit better but consider one of his Hart's only happened because Sid took a slap shot to his face in 2013 late in the year and consistency as a valuable player clearly goes to Hull.

3. Hull was a more rounded offensive player. 3 Art Ross's to 1. Hull more productive at ES.

4. Hull was better in the postseason. Hull was great in his 2 national team tournaments. Ovechkin is a massive failure for team Russia.

 

[bobholly39]

"Ovechkin has more Harts than Hull"

1. Only because Sid wasn't playing much hockey between 2011 and 2013. Fact.

2. Two, look at their actual Hart record, top to bottom.

Hull

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7

Ovechkin

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 9

-Ovechkins top end is a bit better but consider one of his Hart's only happened because Sid took a slap shot to his face in 2013 late in the year and consistency as a valuable player clearly goes to Hull.

3. Hull was a more rounded offensive player. 3 Art Ross's to 1. Hull more productive at ES.

4. Hull was better in the postseason. Hull was great in his 2 national team tournaments. Ovechkin is a massive failure for team Russia.

You literally tried holding the "1 hart" against Jagr argument last page and dismissed the fact that he had 5 top 2 finishes for Hart - but now for Hull and Ovi, it's top finishes which count more than actual wins?

Some consistency would be nice.

For the record - I agree with the idea that counting top hart finishes and not just wins is the correct stance.

Also Sentinel - Ovi *is* ranked now - not sure why you said he wasn't. He got ranked last vote. I think the OP just hadn't been updated yet.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You literally tried holding the "1 hart" against Jagr argument last page and dismissed the fact that he had 5 top 2 finishes for Hart - but now for Hull and Ovi, it's top finishes which count more than actual wins?

Some consistency would be nice.

For the record - I agree with the idea that counting top hart finishes and not just wins is the correct stance.

Also Sentinel - Ovi *is* ranked now - not sure why you said he wasn't. He got ranked last vote. I think the OP just hadn't been updated yet.

Not a hard concept to grasp.

Jagr didn't win more Hart's because he wasn't that valuable. At least Phil Esposito won multiple Hart trophies in the same era (obviously same team) as Bobby Orr and didn't disappear in the playoffs repeatedly. Starting to wonder why the stat junkies didn't want even better scorer Phil boy above Jagr?

Ovechkin has more Hart's than Hull because Sidney Crosby lost 2 years of his prime. Fact.

Hull was a much better offensive player than Ovechkin. Better goal scorer as well. Peak or otherwise. Actually played both ends of the ice. Watch the many tapes on him. As great as Ovi was and is, Hull was simply better. Ovi is right where he should be. Needs to do more in the postseason to close the gap on other players all time. Same with 87 if we're talking active greats.

TABLE 5 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, GOALS (last updated: 2018)

Bobby Hull	70.2
Maurice Richard	67.2
Gordie Howe	65.5
Phil Esposito	62.1
Alex Ovechkin	59.5
Wayne Gretzky	59.0
Brett Hull	56.3
Mario Lemieux	54.5
Jean Beliveau	54.4
Charlie Conacher	54.3
Mike Bossy	52.9
Bill Cook	52.7
Bernie Geoffrion	51.2
Frank Mahovlich	50.8
Nels Stewart	50.7
Steven Stamkos	50.6
Jaromir Jagr	50.4
Pavel Bure	50.3
Stan Mikita	50.0
Roy Conacher	49.6
Ted Lindsay	48.4
Howie Morenz	48.3
Teemu Selanne	48.3
Guy Lafleur	47.2
Peter Bondra	47.2
Marcel Dionne	47.2
Steve Yzerman	47.0
Gordie Drillon	46.9
Norm Ullman	46.7
Ilya Kovalchuk	46.6
Jarome Iginla	46.5
Bryan Hextall	46.3
Marty Barry	45.6
Busher Jackson	45.6
Jari Kurri	45.4
John LeClair	45.2
Luc Robitaille	44.7
Sweeney Schriner	44.3
Andy Bathgate	44.2
Joe Sakic	43.8
Cecil Dillon	43.6
Keith Tkachuk	43.4
Camille Henry	43.2
Michel Goulet	43.1
John Bucyk	42.8
Sidney Crosby	42.7
Evgeni Malkin	42.7
Rick Martin	42.6
Brendan Shanahan	42.5
Dickie Moore	42.5
Max Bentley	42.3
Toe Blake	42.3
Dany Heatley	42.1
Rick Nash	41.7
Mike Gartner	41.6
Syl Apps Sr	41.6
Yvan Cournoyer	41.5
Corey Perry	41.4
Aurel Joliat	41.2
Pat LaFontaine	41.0
Marian Hossa	40.9
Syd Howe	40.9
Lorne Carr	40.7
Cam Neely	40.6
Markus Naslund	40.6
Kenny Wharram	40.4
Doug Bentley	40.3
Ziggy Palffy	40.3
Gaye Stewart	40.3
Herb Cain	40.3
Paul Kariya	40.2
John Tavares	40.2
Eric Lindros	40.2
Alexander Mogilny	40.2
Theoren Fleury	40.0
Jeff Carter	40.0
Joe Nieuwendyk	39.8
Lanny McDonald	39.5
Bill Mosienko	39.5
Eric Staal	39.4
Steve Shutt	39.4
Tony Amonte	39.3
Mats Sundin	39.3
Sid Smith	39.2
Ken Hodge	39.1
Rod Gilbert	39.1
Alex Delvecchio	39.0
Patrick Marleau	38.9
Phil Kessel	38.9
Tim Kerr	38.8
Sid Abel	38.8
Dave Keon	38.7
Dino Ciccarelli	38.6
Marian Gaborik	38.6
Milan Hejduk	38.5
Jean Ratelle	38.4
Mike Modano	38.2
Jeremy Roenick	38.1
Tyler Seguin	38.0
Ted Kennedy	38.0
Woody Dumart	38.0
Dave Andreychuk	38.0
Zach Parise	37.9
Dit Clapper	37.9
Patrick Kane	37.9
Joe Mullen	37.9
Joe Pavelski	37.8
Dale Hawerchuk	37.7
Paul Thompson	37.7
Mark Messier	37.4
Garry Unger	37.4
Sergei Fedorov	37.3
Bill Cowley	37.2
Henri Richard	37.2
Glenn Anderson	37.2
Bernie Nicholls	37.1
Bryan Trottier	37.1
Alexei Yashin	37.1
Martin St. Louis	37.0
Thomas Vanek	36.9
Pierre Turgeon	36.9
Milt Schmidt	36.9
Gilbert Perreault	36.8
Bill Guerin	36.8
Tod Sloan	36.8
Pat Verbeek	36.7
Darryl Sittler	36.7
Bill Barber	36.7
Owen Nolan	36.7
Patrik Elias	36.6
Reggie Leach	36.6
Vincent Lecavalier	36.6
Rick Middleton	36.5
Lynn Patrick	36.5
Mark Recchi	36.4
Cooney Weiland	36.4
Jamie Benn	36.3
Brad Marchand	36.2
Max Pacioretty	36.2
Rick MacLeish	36.1
Daniel Alfredsson	36.1
Miroslav Satan	36.0
Ray Sheppard	36.0
Don McKenney	36.0
Rick Vaive	36.0
Glen Murray	35.7
Jean Pronovost	35.7
Danny Gare	35.7
Peter Stastny	35.5
Jonathan Toews	35.4
Harry Watson	35.4
Dean Prentice	35.3
John Ogrodnick	35.3
Jacques Lemaire	35.2
Steve Larmer	35.1
Stephane Richer	35.1
Bun Cook	35.0
Bobby Bauer	35.0
Bobby Orr	34.9
Brian Bellows	34.8
Kevin Stevens	34.8
Bill Goldsworthy	34.8
Charlie Simmer	34.8
Logan Couture	34.6
Daniel Sedin	34.5
Simon Gagne	34.4
James Neal	34.4
Ron Ellis	34.4
Pierre Larouche	34.4
Gary Roberts	34.3
Clint Smith	34.3
Alex Kovalev	34.2
Dennis Hull	34.2
Baldy Northcott	34.2
Johnny Gottselig	34.2
Larry Aurie	34.2
Dick Duff	34.1
Elmer Lach	34.0
Ed Litzenberger	33.9
Grant Warwick	33.9
Andy Hebenton	33.8
Olli Jokinen	33.7
Herbie Lewis	33.6
Danny Grant	33.5
John MacLean	33.5
Denis Savard	33.3
Bob Nevin	33.3
Jim Pappin	33.2
Jason Spezza	33.2
Claude Provost	33.0
Pavol Demitra	33.0
Dave Taylor	33.0
Bobby Rousseau	33.0
Hooley Smith	32.9
Wayne Simmonds	32.9
Rick Tocchet	32.8
Geoff Sanderson	32.8
Patrick Sharp	32.7
Dennis Maruk	32.7
Anze Kopitar	32.6
Alex Shibicky	32.6
Mike Bullard	32.6
Ralph Backstrom	32.5
Butch Keeling	32.5
Ryan Smyth	32.4
Brian Propp	32.3
Jeff Skinner	32.3
Johnny Peirson	32.2
Alexander Semin	32.2
Adam Graves	32.2
Mickey Redmond	32.1
John Sorrell	32.1
Jimmy Ward	32.0
Bob Pulford	32.0
Gilles Tremblay	31.9
Peter McNab	31.9
Don Marshall	31.9
Tomas Sandstrom	31.8
Henrik Zetterberg	31.8
Paul MacLean	31.7
Greg Adams	31.7
Tony Tanti	31.6
Pete Mahovlich	31.6
Steve Thomas	31.6
Buzz Boll	31.5
Frank Boucher	31.5
Red Hamill	31.5
Mud Bruneteau	31.5
Jimmy Carson	31.4
Vic Stasiuk	31.4
Vic Hadfield	31.3
Rick Kehoe	31.3
Bobby Ryan	31.3
James van Riemsdyk	31.1
Taylor Hall	31.1
Carl Liscombe	31.0
Vincent Damphousse	31.0
Pavel Datsyuk	30.9
Brian Sutter	30.8
Ace Bailey	30.8
Paul Henderson	30.8
John McKenzie	30.8
Claude Lemieux	30.7
Eric Daze	30.7
Bobby Clarke	30.7
Bill Thoms	30.6
Petr Sykora	30.6
Petr Nedved	30.6
Blaine Stoughton	30.5
Wendel Clark	30.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TABLE 6 - BEST TEN YEARS, GOALS (last updated: 2018)

Bobby Hull	64.9
Maurice Richard	61.2
Gordie Howe	61.1
Alex Ovechkin	56.5
Phil Esposito	56.3
Wayne Gretzky	53.9
Brett Hull	51.1
Jean Beliveau	50.4
Mario Lemieux	49.9
Mike Bossy	49.4
Frank Mahovlich	47.3
Nels Stewart	47.3
Jaromir Jagr	46.7
Bernie Geoffrion	45.9
Ted Lindsay	45.5
Stan Mikita	45.2
Bill Cook	45.0
Marcel Dionne	44.5
Teemu Selanne	44.4
Charlie Conacher	43.7
Ilya Kovalchuk	43.5
Norm Ullman	43.3
Jarome Iginla	43.1
Steve Yzerman	42.9
Luc Robitaille	42.7
Roy Conacher	42.7
Pavel Bure	42.6
Peter Bondra	42.1
Steven Stamkos	41.9
Guy Lafleur	41.0
Keith Tkachuk	40.6
Joe Sakic	40.5
Busher Jackson	40.4
Jari Kurri	40.2
Sidney Crosby	40.0
Andy Bathgate	39.8
John Bucyk	39.6
Brendan Shanahan	39.6
Sweeney Schriner	39.6
Bryan Hextall	39.5
Toe Blake	39.4
Mike Gartner	39.1
Syl Apps Sr	39.0
Marty Barry	39.0
Howie Morenz	38.9
Marian Hossa	38.7
Rick Nash	38.6
Evgeni Malkin	38.5
John LeClair	38.4
Max Bentley	38.2
Syd Howe	38.1
Yvan Cournoyer	37.9
Michel Goulet	37.8
Mats Sundin	37.6
Dany Heatley	37.4
Camille Henry	37.2
Corey Perry	37.1
Joe Nieuwendyk	37.0
Aurel Joliat	37.0
Pat LaFontaine	36.9
Patrick Marleau	36.9
Rod Gilbert	36.8
Dino Ciccarelli	36.8
Dickie Moore	36.8
Alexander Mogilny	36.8
Theoren Fleury	36.7
Lorne Carr	36.7
Eric Staal	36.6
Dave Keon	36.4
Rick Martin	36.2
Eric Lindros	36.2
Cecil Dillon	36.1
Jean Ratelle	36.0
Paul Kariya	36.0
Jeff Carter	36.0
Lanny McDonald	35.9
Phil Kessel	35.9
Markus Naslund	35.8
Bill Mosienko	35.8
Alex Delvecchio	35.7
Mike Modano	35.6
Joe Mullen	35.6
Dale Hawerchuk	35.5
Mark Messier	35.5
Darryl Sittler	35.4
Sergei Fedorov	35.4
Doug Bentley	35.3
Tony Amonte	35.2
Herb Cain	35.1
Jeremy Roenick	35.0
Patrick Kane	35.0
Pierre Turgeon	34.9
Martin St. Louis	34.9
Dave Andreychuk	34.9
Henri Richard	34.8
Marian Gaborik	34.8
Zach Parise	34.7
Garry Unger	34.7
Kenny Wharram	34.7
Woody Dumart	34.5
Milan Hejduk	34.4
Ted Kennedy	34.4
Steve Shutt	34.2
Ziggy Palffy	34.2
Dit Clapper	34.2
Mark Recchi	34.1
Bill Barber	34.1
Thomas Vanek	34.0
Cam Neely	34.0
Bryan Trottier	34.0
Milt Schmidt	34.0
Glenn Anderson	33.9
Joe Pavelski	33.8
Gilbert Perreault	33.8
Pat Verbeek	33.7
Ken Hodge	33.7
Vincent Lecavalier	33.7
John Tavares	33.5
Bernie Nicholls	33.4
Owen Nolan	33.4
Jacques Lemaire	33.3
Alexei Yashin	33.0
Rick Vaive	33.0
Bill Guerin	32.9
Dean Prentice	32.9
Gordie Drillon	32.8
Patrik Elias	32.8
Bill Cowley	32.8
Miroslav Satan	32.8
Sid Abel	32.8
Rick Middleton	32.7
Daniel Alfredsson	32.7
Peter Stastny	32.6
Steve Larmer	32.5
Jonathan Toews	32.4
Don McKenney	32.3
Reggie Leach	32.0
Jean Pronovost	31.9
Cooney Weiland	31.9
Harry Watson	31.9
Ray Sheppard	31.8
Brian Bellows	31.8
James Neal	31.8
Tod Sloan	31.7
Daniel Sedin	31.4
Ron Ellis	31.4
Rick MacLeish	31.2
Rick Tocchet	31.0
Gary Roberts	30.9
Denis Savard	30.9
Dick Duff	30.9
John Ogrodnick	30.8
Alex Kovalev	30.8
Gaye Stewart	30.8
Johnny Gottselig	30.8
Bun Cook	30.7
Tim Kerr	30.6
Paul Thompson	30.6
Elmer Lach	30.6
Stephane Richer	30.5
Pierre Larouche	30.5
Lynn Patrick	30.5
Ryan Smyth	30.4
Glen Murray	30.2
John MacLean	30.2
Brian Propp	30.2
Jamie Benn	30.1
Bob Nevin	30.1
Dennis Hull	30.1
Jason Spezza	30.0
Larry Aurie	30.0
Herbie Lewis	29.8
Bobby Rousseau	29.8
Bob Pulford	29.7
Danny Gare	29.7
Pavol Demitra	29.6
Sid Smith	29.5
Ralph Backstrom	29.5
Vic Hadfield	29.5
Anze Kopitar	29.5
Dave Taylor	29.5
Claude Provost	29.4
Clint Smith	29.3
Rick Kehoe	29.3
Olli Jokinen	29.2
Hooley Smith	29.2
Adam Graves	29.1
Pavel Datsyuk	29.1
Jim Pappin	29.1
Rod Brind'Amour	28.9
Vincent Damphousse	28.9
Petr Sykora	28.9
Tomas Sandstrom	28.9
Shane Doan	28.8
Jimmy Ward	28.8
Henrik Zetterberg	28.8
Simon Gagne	28.8
Butch Keeling	28.7
Bill Goldsworthy	28.7
Geoff Sanderson	28.7
Don Marshall	28.6
Jason Arnott	28.6
Charlie Simmer	28.5
Kevin Stevens	28.5
Greg Adams	28.4
Bobby Orr	28.4
Ray Whitney	28.3
Joe Thornton	28.3
Claude Lemieux	28.3
George Armstrong	28.1
Peter McNab	28.1
Patrick Sharp	28.1
Steve Thomas	28.0
Mike Bullard	28.0
Frank Boucher	28.0
Patrice Bergeron	27.9
Red Kelly	27.9
Ray Ferraro	27.9
Tyler Seguin	27.9
Geoff Courtnall	27.8
Dennis Maruk	27.8
Petr Nedved	27.7
Brad Marchand	27.7
Pit Martin	27.6
Baldy Northcott	27.6
Max Pacioretty	27.5
Scott Hartnell	27.5
Dave Gagner	27.5
Paul MacLean	27.4
Andy Hebenton	27.4
John Sorrell	27.3
Murray Oliver	27.3
Wayne Simmonds	27.3
Butch Goring	27.2
Paul Henderson	27.1
Bobby Clarke	27.0
Jason Pominville	27.0
Alexander Semin	27.0
Blake Wheeler	26.9
Bill Thoms	26.9
Buzz Boll	26.9
Bobby Ryan	26.9
Wilf Paiement	26.9
Hec Kilrea	26.8
Ivan Boldirev	26.8
Brian Rolston	26.8
Brian Gionta	26.7
Chris Kunitz	26.7
Doug Mohns	26.6
Wendel Clark	26.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Captain Bowie]

Also Sentinel - Ovi *is* ranked now - not sure why you said he wasn't. He got ranked last vote. I think the OP just hadn't been updated yet.

@quoipourquoi

 

[sr edler]

Starting to wonder why the stat junkies

I don’t think this type of repetitive blanket name-calling is helping your case very much. Participants can recognize that Jagr had flaws to his game, and at the same time also recognize that he could also have a positive impact on his teams. One thing doesn’t have to exclude the other.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Stat junkie is now name calling in 2018 folks.

Why was Jagr a better player than Esposito?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Stat junkie is now name calling in 2018 folks.

Why was Jagr a better player than Esposito?

Name calling maybe not, but certainly generalizing and reductive.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Far better skater while they both were in their 20's and a much more valuable part of the 'open play' in hockey.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

With Bobby Hull at #5 and Ovechkin not even ranked, this list will look soooo bad after Ovy passes Hull in the number of Richards... (and that's pretty much all Hull has).

I've never understood this line of thinking, that hitting some sort of statistical benchmark suddenly makes a Player A better than Player B, if it was viewed differently beforehand. It was like when Brodeur passed Roy for most all-time wins and media/fans/commentators were like "oh, I think can we now say Brodeur is better than Roy". Why? As if that one extra regular season win tilted the scales somehow?

So if Ovechkin hits 50 goals this year and it's enough to lead the league, he is now better than Hull...but if Jeff Skinner finishes with 52 goals instead of 48, we have to wait another year to see if Ovechkin can become greater than Hull? That just doesn't make sense to me. Both are on a very short list of the best goal scorers ever...trying to find an tiny edge for one of them in that specific category seems like a waste of time (unless it can be demonstrated that one of them is indeed clearly better than the other). It's much more productive to look at other areas of their games to find a difference.

 

[bobholly39]

Not a hard concept to grasp.

Jagr didn't win more Hart's because he wasn't that valuable. At least Phil Esposito won multiple Hart trophies in the same era (obviously same team) as Bobby Orr and didn't disappear in the playoffs repeatedly. Starting to wonder why the stat junkies didn't want even better scorer Phil boy above Jagr?

Ovechkin has more Hart's than Hull because Sidney Crosby lost 2 years of his prime. Fact.

Hull was a much better offensive player than Ovechkin. Better goal scorer as well. Peak or otherwise. Actually played both ends of the ice. Watch the many tapes on him. As great as Ovi was and is, Hull was simply better. Ovi is right where he should be. Needs to do more in the postseason to close the gap on other players all time. Same with 87 if we're talking active greats.

To the bolded - that is the exact opposite of a fact. It's an opinion, based on a hypothetical. I don't disagree that Sidney Crosby probably beats Ovechkin for the hart in 2013 without an injury - but what's that have to do with anything?

Jagr didn't win as many harts because he was up against arguably the greatest regular season goalie peak ever. And up against Lemieux a cpl of yrs. That's better competition than Crosby in 2013. Again - so what?

What's ironic is that a couple of pages back you were dismissive of Jagr's hart voting record as "just 1 hart" - while knowing full well he actually has a great hart record if you include top 2 finishes (let alone top 3-5 finishes). But now for Hull vs Ovi - hart voting records becomes relevant - not just wins.

As to your last paragraph - I mostly agree with placements. If I had my way Hull is probably a few ranks lower, and maybe Ovi a few ranks higher - but they're mostly where they belong.

 

[DitchMarner]

Haven't more players been "inducted?" When will the list be updated?

 

[DitchMarner]

To the bolded - that is the exact opposite of a fact. It's an opinion, based on a hypothetical. I don't disagree that Sidney Crosby probably beats Ovechkin for the hart in 2013 without an injury - but what's that have to do with anything?

Jagr didn't win as many harts because he was up against arguably the greatest regular season goalie peak ever. And up against Lemieux a cpl of yrs. That's better competition than Crosby in 2013. Again - so what?

What's ironic is that a couple of pages back you were dismissive of Jagr's hart voting record as "just 1 hart" - while knowing full well he actually has a great hart record if you include top 2 finishes (let alone top 3-5 finishes). But now for Hull vs Ovi - hart voting records becomes relevant - not just wins.

As to your last paragraph - I mostly agree with placements. If I had my way Hull is probably a few ranks lower, and maybe Ovi a few ranks higher - but they're mostly where they belong.

With 80-82 games played in 2010, Ovechkin could have won the Hart that season, which would have given him three and more Harts than Hull anyway.


Not that I'm necessarily asserting he should be ranked higher than Bobby.

 

[quoipourquoi]

@quoipourquoi

Pfft.

I do most of the rest of this on my cellphone, but I need Excel for that. I’ll update it tomorrow when I’m on an actual computer.

 

[daver]

Stat junkie is now name calling in 2018 folks.

Why was Jagr a better player than Esposito?

I guess you don't have a problem with the term "hypocrite" either then?

For example, did you also lower the value of Mario's playoff performances because the Pens were among the worst defensive teams during their two Cup runs?

 

[MXD]

I guess you don't have a problem with the term "hypocrite" either then?

For example, did you also lower the value of Mario's playoff performances because the Pens were among the worst defensive teams during their two Cup runs?

Why aren't you participating in the project if you're to focus on such specific points?

 

[daver]

Why aren't you participating in the project if you're to focus on such specific points?

Why are you participating in the project if you are to focus on such specific posters?

 

[MXD]

Why are you participating in the project if you are to focus on such specific posters?

Answer my question first. Maybe I'll bother about yours then. Or maybe not, because you have absolutely no interest whatsoever in this thing in the first place, other than about some very specific player which share a common trait.

 

[MXD]

And besides, say whatever you want about @ImporterExporter , he did clearly say what he had on his mind , with a lot of jusfication, too. Like, you can't say that he came to his conclusions for no reason or for bad reasons (something I can't quite say for everyone in this group), and he explained them, in about 123811320 words. And I say that as someone who really doesn't agree with him regarding Jagr (I had him between 15th and 17th for the whole time).