Toggle sidebar

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (The Third)

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Looking at the bottom 20, i look forward to see how more knowledge about the past, and the play of currently active players change the ranks there.

Seeing Keith and Chara there makes me think, will Karlsson be in it mix. Actually, a debate of just those three would be interesting to read.
 
Moridin said:
Looking at the bottom 20, i look forward to see how more knowledge about the past, and the play of currently active players change the ranks there.

Seeing Keith and Chara there makes me think, will Karlsson be in it mix. Actually, a debate of just those three would be interesting to read.
Click to expand...

Karlsson came in at 106th on the aggregate list.

He came up for voting in the last two votes of the 2nd round but didn't make it.

You would think a 2 time Norris winner and 4 time 1st team all-star would have a good shot. But at the time of the vote Karlsson only had 9 seasons played, was coming off a weak year and his career was a roller coaster (and still is).
 
Just like with Sakic and Yzerman, I think the gap between Roy and Hasek makes little sense...

3 Smythes is an incredible feat, but the stats - both regular season and playoffs - show that Hasek was the superior goalie

And while some may point to longevity as justification for having Roy ahead of Hasek, why isn't the same reasoning used when comparing Lidstrom or Bourque to Orr?

Is there any argument that Hasek's peak is the greatest in NHL history among goaltenders?

Hasek...
6x 1st Team All-Star
6x Vezina winner
3x Jennings winner
6x All-Star
2x Hart winner
2x Pearson winner

Now compare that to Roy's trophy case...

Roy...
4x 1st Team All-Star
2x 2nd Team All-Star
3x Vezina winner
5x Jennings winner
6x All-Star (that's surprising, I would've thought he'd have more all-star appearances)
3 Conn Smythes
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: reino
If you could build around an 18 year old Makarov (#26) or an 18 year old Yzerman (#40), are any of you taking the winger?
 
Noticeable blocks within ~20 points of each other from the top-41 ranked players:

Gretzky
Howe/Orr (4 points)
Lemieux
Hull/Beliveau (9 points)
Roy/Harvey (8 points)
Richard
Bourque/Morenz/Crosby/Hasek (25 points)

After that, we had Lidstrom, Jagr (14 back), Kelly (2 back), Potvin (11 back), Plante (3 back), Nighbor (2 back), Messier (6 back), and Ovechkin (23 back) not really creating distance from each other.

Lafleur/Mikita (2 points)

Then another pile-up of Fetisov, Makarov (10 back), Esposito (6 back), Hall (10 back), Clarke (11 back), and Brodeur (6 back).

Trottier/Sakic/Taylor/Cook (17 points)
Sawchuk/Bossy/Robinson (14 points)
Lindsay/Lalonde/Yzerman/Chelios (7 points)

After that, Chelios had a 86-point gap over #42.

So if a player ends up on the high-end of one block and a player ends up on the low-end of the very next block, they might end up ~10 spots apart on the list but not necessarily be viewed substantially different.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
The gap between Sakic and Yzerman should be bigger, if anything.
Click to expand...
Let's be real. They were often seen as equals. I have heard plenty of guys argue Yzerman was better. Some said Sakic. Certainly it was a fun "issue", showing they were close enough to each other to perpetuate endless debates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
TheDevilMadeMe said:
The gap between Sakic and Yzerman should be bigger, if anything.
Click to expand...

Had we not lost the tables from the playoff project, it might have been too. I think we’re just now recompiling some of the data from 4 or 5 years ago.

Personally, I have them both slightly higher than where they fell on the list (Sakic #27, Yzerman #36).
 
VanIslander said:
Let's be real. They were often seen as equals. I have heard plenty of guys argue Yzerman was better. Some said Sakic. Certainly it was a fun "issue", showing they were close enough to each other to perpetuate endless debates.
Click to expand...

To your point, I had Yzerman at 41st and Sakic at 42nd.

Pretty sure in 2009 voting I had Sakic ahead with both ranked in the 30s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VanIslander
Perennial said:
3 Smythes is an incredible feat, but the stats - both regular season and playoffs - show that Hasek was the superior goalie
Click to expand...

After taking into account the fact that Roy spent half his career in a much higher-scoring era, his playoff numbers are better (92.0% vs 91.7%). It's a small gap, but it's in Roy's favour, and that was achieved over more than twice as many minutes.

For regular season numbers - adjusted for era, the difference in career save percentage is 92.5% to 92.0% in Hasek's favour. Peak save percentage (best seven years) is closer still, at 93.2% to 92.9%.

I have a few other metrics for evaluating goalies. Roy is ahead in both career goals versus average (how many goals did he prevent compared to a league-average goalie) and career goals versus threshold (how many goals did he prevent compared to a theoretical "replacement" level backup goalie). Hasek had the higher peak by both metrics though.

I have Roy ahead, but I definitely see the argument for Hasek, especially if peak is emphasized. But the notion that Hasek was much better at stopping the puck is simply wrong. Most of the difference in their numbers is a result of the eras they played in.
 
Perennial said:
If you could build around an 18 year old Makarov (#26) or an 18 year old Yzerman (#40), are any of you taking the winger?
Click to expand...

Assuming we are getting the USSR version of Makarov in an NHL setting, I would take Makarov without question.

I would also take Ovechkin over Malkin or Kopitar.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
VanIslander said:
Let's be real. They were often seen as equals. I have heard plenty of guys argue Yzerman was better. Some said Sakic. Certainly it was a fun "issue", showing they were close enough to each other to perpetuate endless debates.
Click to expand...

They were seen as equals because they wore the same jersey number and were each the #1 C of rival teams. And frankly, So they compared easily. And frankly, I think Yzerman was slightly overhyped as the favorite player of one of the NHL's glamour teams.

Sakic had a better overall peak because his offense and defense peaked at the same time; Sakic had significantly more elite regular seasons; Sakic peaked higher in the playoffs.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
... Sakic had significantly more elite regular seasons...
Click to expand...
You didn't say that.

NHL GOALS
Yzerman: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th
Sakic: 2nd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 10th

NHL CAREER POINTS
Yzerman 1755
Sakic 1641

Yzerman was better at his peak in the regular season. (And as i will show, played with much less.)

Yzerman scored more over his career, each passing the 20-year mark.

I graduated high school in '87.

Yzerman had this many MORE points than EVERY other teammate from then:
18
29
63
47
29
17
40
= 243 points more than ANY and EVERY other Wing before the stacked Detroit years when Bowman asked Yzerman to sacrifice offense to have elite Selke-winning defense.

Sakic was beat out in scoring by Sundin in Quebec, Forsberg, Kamensky, ... (though the Avs did start to suck late in his career).

The gap between Yzerman and every other human on his team was STARK over half a decade into his career. It was epic!
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Assuming we are getting the USSR version of Makarov in an NHL setting, I would take Makarov without question.

I would also take Ovechkin over Malkin or Kopitar.
Click to expand...

Ovechkin has benefited from being incredibly durable throughout his career so he's the right pick, but in terms of talent and impact on a per-game basis, I think it could be argued that Malkin is the better player...

Unfortuntately, Malkin has only managed to play more than 70 games in a season 5 times in 14 years, so his career leaves a little to be desired...
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast
VanIslander said:
You didn't say that.

NHL GOALS
Yzerman: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th
Sakic: 2nd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 10th

NHL CAREER POINTS
Yzerman 1755
Sakic 1641
Click to expand...

So... you cherrypicked statistics that have nothing to do with what I said?

Try looking at their NHL POINTS rankings, or VsX, or anything else that shows how they ranked among their peers in NHL points on a season by season basis. You know, like we did in the project when we were ranking them.

Yzerman was better at his peak in the regular season. (And as i will show, played with much less.)
Click to expand...

Sakic's 2000-01 was at least as good as Yzerman's 1988-89. Yzerman's season was probably a bit better offensively, but Sakic's defensive game was far better in his peak season than Yzerman's was in his.
 
I compared him to his contemporaries (top-10 goals stat).
TheDevilMadeMe said:
... Sakic's defensive game was far better in his peak season than Yzerman's was in his.
Click to expand...
I thought the opposite most of their careers.

Selke voters saw what i saw.

Yzerman 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Sakic 2nd... 9th? 10th?
 
VanIslander said:
I compared him to his contemporaries (top-10 goals stat).

I thought the opposite most of their careers.

Selke voters saw what i saw.

Yzerman 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Sakic 2nd... 9th? 10th?
Click to expand...

Listing their Selke finishes doesn't really say anything when we are discussing individual seasons. Yzerman was all but finished as an elite offensive player by the time he was getting Selke votes.

Sakic's 2nd place finish was during his peak offensive season. I don't think he really deserved to finish that high even, but the point is that he was at his defensive best and offensive best at the same time. The fact that Yzerman won the Selke in 2000 does not mean he was anything special defensively in 1989.
 
Perennial said:
Hasek was better than Roy, yet Roy was ranked ahead of Hasek...

So it seems like "Who was better?" wasn't the primary factor for the majority of voters...
Click to expand...

So Hasek was better than Roy & Yzerman was better than Makarov because you say so?

Look, I ranked Hasek ahead of Roy. That's my opinion. That doesn't mean its fact.

I also ranked Makarov well ahead Yzerman.

Try making a list of the top 120 players. It ain't easy. Nor will it be "correct".
 
  • Like
Reactions: ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe and wetcoast
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Assuming we are getting the USSR version of Makarov in an NHL setting, I would take Makarov without question.

I would also take Ovechkin over Malkin or Kopitar.
Click to expand...

Kopitar isn't even in the same realm as the 2 Russians as prospects and the 2 Russians are very close injuries are the big difference.

Malkin has actually been able to be an elite player for a longer period of time (13 years), with some gaps of course.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom