Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[Sentinel]

This video shows Makarov scoring goals or making plays against great Canadian defensemen with the NT:

I enjoyed writing this video, even though I had technical help. Credit to Batis for providing the data.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Do you need convincing that Lidstrom was better than Ozolinsh, while you're at it? Or Foote?

Lidstrom being better than Sakic is not clear at all.

 

[wetcoast]

Lidstrom being better than Sakic is not clear at all.

Well in terms of this project it is quite clear.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

While I had Lidstrom somewhat comfortably ahead of Sakic too... I think it is/was a comparison at least worth mentioning.

I mentioned injuries before... But to add to that, as consistent as Sakic was, Lidstrom was even more so.

 

[Sentinel]

Phil Esposito is firmly on his way to becoming HOH's Most Underrated Player of All Time.

Oh, just so not to get up twice (a Russian expression): Yzerman's both offensive and defensive peaks are higher than Sakic's. I would put Trottier between them... only in the reverse order.

Esposito
Yzerman
Trottier
Sakic
Clarke

 

[Batis]

Great post. I was also debating in which order to rank Fetisov and Makarov.

In the Soviet award voting that you mentioned, is there the same tendency (which we see in the NHL) to vote for forwards more often? In other words, can some of Makarov’s success be explained by voter bias, or is it all/mostly deserved?

Good question. Like I mentioned in that post when it comes to the Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe poll) the strong results of Valeri Vasiliev (2 times in the top 3 and 4 times in the top 8) despite being 29 years old the season when the poll first was conducted does in my opinion suggest that there not was very much anti-defencemen bias among the Izvestia voters. At least not nearly enough to close the gap between the voting records of Makarov and Fetisov.

In the Soviet player of the year voting I think that there is a somewhat different story. Here I think it is fair to suggest that defencemen generally were somewhat underappriciated. On the other hand there is the argument which suggests that the Soviet Union and later Russia historically simply has produced so many more great forwards than defencemen which could explain why defencemen as a group did not recieve very much voting support in the SPOTY voting without the need for any anti-defencemen bias to explain it. Which of these different versions one believes is more accurate can probably be a rather deciding factor for if one ranks Fetisov or Makarov as the top Soviet player. What is the more impressive feat between Fetisov completely dominating the other Soviet defencemen in the SPOTY voting and measuring up well to most of the top forwards and Makarov clearly being at the top of the very strong group of Soviet forwards when it comes to SPOTY voting? (for more information on the subject see the quotes here below). That is a very difficult question to answer. I personally rank the SPOTY voting records of Makarov and Fetisov as roughly equals when making mental adjustments for everything while I consider Makarov to have a clearly stronger Izvestia voting record.

As promised here comes the SPOTY voting shares for the defencemen. Since the Soviets produced less great defencemen than forwards I will only present the top-3 on each list. In my opinion the 3 top defencemen are the only ones who are relevant in this discussion.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.187
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.089

5-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.154
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.073

7-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.129
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.060

And here are their results season by season.

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-year average: 0.558
5-year average: 0.520
7-year average: 0.456

Valery Vasiliev
73/74: 39/168 = 0.232
78/79: 345/1734 = 0.199
79/80: 27/207 = 0.130
74/75: 23/195 = 0.118
80/81: 20/222 = 0.090
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
72/73: 10/177 = 0.056
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
75/76: 2/192 = 0.010
77/78: 2/219 = 0.009
3-year average: 0.187
5-year average: 0.154
7-year average: 0.129

Alexey Kasatonov
82/83: 29/243 = 0.119
83/84: 20/261 = 0.077
84/85: 19/264 = 0.072
86/87: 16/267 = 0.060
81/82: 8/222 = 0.036
80/81: 7/222 = 0.032
87/88: 7/258 = 0.027
88/89: 5/237 = 0.021
85/86: 3/282 = 0.011
79/80: 2/207= 0.010
3-year average: 0.089
5-year average: 0.073
7-year average: 0.060

Looking at the voting shares it becomes perhaps even more clear just how much of an outlier Fetisov was among Soviet defencemen. Additionally Fetisov compares very well to most of the top forwards in the voting as well and when it comes to 7-year average Makarov is the only forward ahead of Fetisov for example. The only relative weakness on Fetisovs SPOTY voting record is that he "only" recieved votes in 9 seasons which actually is less than Vasiliev and Kasatonov who both recieved votes in 10 seasons.

It is also very clear that Vasilievs voting record is far stronger than Kasatonovs even without taking into account for that one of Vasilievs strongest seasons was in 78/79 where we only have the Izvestia golden stick voting in which it seems to have been somewhat more difficult to get a high voting share.

In my opinion one interesting discussion to have is if the SPOTY voters underrated defencemen or not. On one hand the by comparison low voting shares of the top defencemen would suggest that the answer is yes. On the other hand I also think that there are reasons to believe that the Soviet Union and later Russia have been far better at producing top forwards than top defencemen which means that the difference in strenght of voting shares can have other explanations. An example of this is of course that no Russian defenceman have won the Norris trophy and only two of them (Konstantinov and Zubov) have finished top 3 in the voting (Gonchar finished in the 4-6 range plenty of times though). Compare this to the forwards where there are three winners of both the Hart and the Pearson/Lindsay (Fedorov, Ovechkin and Malkin) and three others who have finished top 3 in the Hart voting (Yashin, Bure and Datsyuk).

It is of course also possible that the Soviet Union (even beyond the outlier Fetisov) generally produced stronger defencemen than Russia has done in modern times. The amount of accolades won by Soviet defencemen on the international stage would actually point to that. It would not surprise me either considering that much suggests that the level of Soviet hockey was somewhat higher than the level of modern Russian hockey. There was for example already in 85/86 talk about that the Soviet hockey talent development had started to decline and I personally don't see much of a reason to believe that the level of Soviet/Russian hockey ever has come back to the level it had in the mid/late 70's and early/mid 80's.

To keep going on the subject Soviet player of the year voting shares here is how Kharlamov and the other 70's forwards compares to all Soviet forwards.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.747
2. Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4. Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8. Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

5-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.660
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5. Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

7-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.551
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5. Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6. Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Igor Larionov 0.144
10. Alexander Yakushev 0.140

1. Sergey Makarov: Being the clear leader in all of the 3-, 5- and 7-year averages makes Makarov a pretty easy choice as the forward with the most impressive SPOTY voting record. When including the Izvestia golden stick voting from 78/79 Makarov recieved votes in 12 straight seasons starting at age 19 in 77/78 and keeping the streak going for the rest of his career in Europe. Makarovs peak voting share of 0.871 from 84/85 is the 3rd strongest single season voting share among forwards behind only Krutovs 0.985 from 86/87 and Firsovs 0.895 from 67/68. Additionally Makarovs second strongest single season voting share of 0.754 from 79/80 is 4th on that list.

 

[VMBM]

Makarov who just had turned 23 when the unit was formed had already won 2 Soviet League scoring titles, 1 Soviet League goalscoring title, 1 Soviet player of the year award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 1 Izvestia golden stick award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 3 first team Soviet all-star selections, 1 WHC Directorate best forward award, 2 WHC first team all-star selections and 1 time WHC goalscoring leader.

Fetisov who also recently had turned 23 had 1 WHC best defenceman award, 1 WHC first team all-star selection, 2 first team Soviet all-star selections and had once finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting in 77/78.

I guess I'm being Mr. Obvious here, but comparing a forward and a defenceman is always somewhat problematic; while Makarov's scoring achievements at such young age are certainly impressive and a 'plus' for him, it couldn't be used as a knock on Fetisov. Despite Fetisov's "Russian Bobby Orr" moniker (wasn't he called that already around 1979 or so?) and him being a big scorer for a defenceman, he wasn't going to win too many scoring titles.

However, it is demonstrated clearly there that Makarov had better first few years in his career. Fetisov got more recognition right at the start (1977-78, but slightly easier to make a breakthrough as a defenceman, I guess), but Makarov was clearly superior in 1979-80/81. I don't know how much Fetisov's injury in 1978/79 slowed/affected his progress, but probably not that much.

The one thing that Fetisov has going for him is that he was arguably more heralded by the contemporary media and experts. Makarov has been - and deservedly - slightly more 'discovered' later. The fact that the Soviets always had much more better forwards than defencemen probably explains some of it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Phil Esposito is firmly on his way to becoming HOH's Most Underrated Player of All Time.

Oh, just so not to get up twice (a Russian expression): Yzerman's both offensive and defensive peaks are higher than Sakic's. I would put Trottier between them... only in the reverse order.

Esposito
Yzerman
Trottier
Sakic
Clarke

I don't really see how you could possibly argue that successfully, Sakic was better.

 

[The Macho King]

I guess I'm being Mr. Obvious here, but comparing a forward and a defenceman is always somewhat problematic; while Makarov's scoring achievements at such young age are certainly impressive and a 'plus' for him, it couldn't be used as a knock on Fetisov. Despite Fetisov's "Russian Bobby Orr" moniker (wasn't he called that already around 1979 or so?) and him being a big scorer for a defenceman, he wasn't going to win too many scoring titles.

However, it is demonstrated clearly there that Makarov had better first few years in his career. Fetisov got more recognition right at the start (1977-78, but slightly easier to make a breakthrough as a defenceman, I guess), but Makarov was clearly superior in 1979-80/81. I don't know how much Fetisov's injury in 1978/79 slowed/affected his progress, but probably not that much.

The one thing that Fetisov has going for him is that he was arguably more heralded by the contemporary media and experts. Makarov has been - and deservedly - slightly more 'discovered' later. The fact that the Soviets always had much more better forwards than defencemen probably explains some of it.

Drink!

But seriously - the discussion is interesting. I'm especially interested in finding out if there seems to be a similar "bias" in MVP voting against Dmen. I think I saw that Vasiliev never had high golden stick finishes, for instance.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Phil Esposito is firmly on his way to becoming HOH's Most Underrated Player of All Time.

This is another problematic item with which we have to come to terms this round.

Someone had earlier said that if you took Esposito's offensive numbers outside of context and used them for your ratings, there would be a 'Big-5.' We've made 'no-brainer' context adjustments (for Orr and for his era) to easily put him behind Béliveau, Morenz & Crosby. We've made sharper context adjustments and put him behind Nighbor, Messier & Mikita. We've probably taken this far enough. If we say his context is such that we put him behind Sakic and Clarke (ffs), then we've gone a bit overboard here.

Again, NOT saying that I have him matriculating... but there are more than a couple of lesser choices here than Esposito.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't really see how you could possibly argue that successfully, Sakic was better.

Sakic never sniffed Yzerman's 155 points or actually won a Selke. Hence... I also believe Yzerman was also used in a defensive role (with superb results) for much longer than Sakic, under both Demers and Bowman.

So I really AM inclined to leave Sakic off, until Yzerman arrives.

 

[Sentinel]

It was a lot easier to stick out being a great defenseman than a great forward in Soviet hockey. After Kharlamov, nobody gave two shits about Makarov. On every Russian board where I bought him up, I was ridiculed. The only Soviet players allowed to be mentioned in the same breath as "People's Valera" are Vsevolod Bobrov and Vladislav Tretiak. Makarov who? Firsov who?

In a field like this, Fetisov had far more going for him than KLM.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I hate being away from a damn keyboard with good discussion going on!

But it's for a good reason. Just finished up a job interview that went extremely well. So this little not working hiatus might be over soon.

 

[DitchMarner]

Sakic never sniffed Yzerman's 155 points or actually won a Selke. Hence... I also believe Yzerman was also used in a defensive role (with superb results) for much longer than Sakic, under both Demers and Bowman.

So I really AM inclined to leave Sakic off, until Yzerman arrives.

Relative to era, Sakic's 118 point season in 2001 is in the ball park of Yzerman's '89 season offensively. I'd still give Y's season the offensive advantage because he had less to work with.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I guess I'm being Mr. Obvious here, but comparing a forward and a defenceman is always somewhat problematic; while Makarov's scoring achievements at such young age are certainly impressive and a 'plus' for him, it couldn't be used as a knock on Fetisov. Despite Fetisov's "Russian Bobby Orr" moniker (wasn't he called that already around 1979 or so?) and him being a big scorer for a defenceman, he wasn't going to win too many scoring titles.

However, it is demonstrated clearly there that Makarov had better first few years in his career. Fetisov got more recognition right at the start (1977-78, but slightly easier to make a breakthrough as a defenceman, I guess), but Makarov was clearly superior in 1979-80/81. I don't know how much Fetisov's injury in 1978/79 slowed/affected his progress, but probably not that much.

The one thing that Fetisov has going for him is that he was arguably more heralded by the contemporary media and experts. Makarov has been - and deservedly - slightly more 'discovered' later. The fact that the Soviets always had much more better forwards than defencemen probably explains some of it.

Specifics of 1978-79 Fetisov injury would be appreciated.

 

[Canadiens1958]

It was a lot easier to stick out being a great defenseman than a great forward in Soviet hockey. After Kharlamov, nobody gave two ****s about Makarov. On every Russian board where I bought him up, I was ridiculed. The only Soviet players allowed to be mentioned in the same breath as "People's Valera" are Vsevolod Bobrov and Vladislav Tretiak. Makarov who? Firsov who?

In a field like this, Fetisov had far more going for him than KLM.

Soviets know hockey.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

This is another problematic item with which we have to come to terms this round.

Someone had earlier said that if you took Esposito's offensive numbers outside of context and used them for your ratings, there would be a 'Big-5.' We've made 'no-brainer' context adjustments (for Orr and for his era) to easily put him behind Béliveau, Morenz & Crosby. We've sharper context adjustments and put him behind Nighbor, Messier & Mikita. We've probably taken this far enough. If we say his context is such that we put him behind Sakic and Clarke (ffs), then we've gone a bit overboard here.

Again, NOT saying that I have him matriculating... but there are more than a couple of lesser choices here than Esposito.

Definitely agree re: Esposito vs Sakic. I don't want to come across like I've shown up here to take Burnaby Joe to the woodshed, but I believe we are seriously over-selling his abilities as a two way player if we're at the point where we'd rank him above Esposito. The offensive gap is enormous. Sakic rounded into a "good" two way player in the back half of his career during an era where it once again became an expectation that a #1 C would be competent in this regard. But we're not talking about a guy who suddenly turned into Bobby Clarke at age 30.

My recollections of Sakic's overall reputation as a two-way player is that he was Crosby-like in his development. An offense-first player who wasn't outright bad in other areas for the first decade or so, who then became a positive contributor in those other areas but was still generally an offense-focused player.

Obviously Esposito never did become that well-rounded player, but his Bruins career up to 1974 or so is too good for me to ignore in relation to Sakic. Both won two Cups in their peak years, but while Phil has several other seasons at that same level, Sakic has a pretty noticeable drop off, and it's not like he won any more Cups himself, or even reached a final (credit for getting to Game 7 in the de facto final in 1999 and 2002 though).

 

[The Macho King]

Definitely agree re: Esposito vs Sakic. I don't want to come across like I've shown up here to take Burnaby Joe to the woodshed, but I believe we are seriously over-selling his abilities as a two way player if we're at the point where we'd rank him above Esposito. The offensive gap is enormous. Sakic rounded into a "good" two way player in the back half of his career during an era where it once again became an expectation that a #1 C would be competent in this regard. But we're not talking about a guy who suddenly turned into Bobby Clarke at age 30.

My recollections of Sakic's overall reputation as a two-way player is that he was Crosby-like in his development. An offense-first player who wasn't outright bad in other areas for the first decade or so, who then became a positive contributor in those other areas but was still generally an offense-focused player.

Obviously Esposito never did become that well-rounded player, but his Bruins career up to 1974 or so is too good for me to ignore in relation to Sakic. Both won two Cups in their peak years, but while Phil has several other seasons at that same level, Sakic has a pretty noticeable drop off, and it's not like he won any more Cups himself, or even reached a final (credit for getting to Game 7 in the de facto final in 1999 and 2002 though).

My recollection is similar, and I suspect Sakic's #2 Selke finish was more of a result of leading the league in +/- more than being a truly great defensive center.

Of the (NHL) Centers available, I think the defensive value goes:

Clarke
Gap
Trottier
Big Gap
Sakic
Esposito

Taylor is interesting to try and fit in here because of the multi-position situation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My recollection is similar, and I suspect Sakic's #2 Selke finish was more of a result of leading the league in +/- more than being a truly great defensive center.

Of the (NHL) Centers available, I think the defensive value goes:


Clarke
Gap
Trottier
Big Gap
Sakic
Esposito

Taylor is interesting to try and fit in here because of the multi-position situation.

Sure, Sakic's gaudy plus/minus helped his Selke finish in 2000-01, but what about the other two seasons Sakic was top 10 in Selke voting? IMO, you have these guys rank in order properly, but the biggest gap is probably between Sakic and Esposito. Esposito flat out bled goals against in the second half of his career (his last few years in Boston and his time in NY).

My impression of Taylor (and it's just an impression -nobody really knows for sure) is that Taylor was decent defensively, not great.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

My recollection is similar, and I suspect Sakic's #2 Selke finish was more of a result of leading the league in +/- more than being a truly great defensive center.

Of the (NHL) Centers available, I think the defensive value goes:

Clarke
Gap
Trottier
Big Gap
Sakic
Esposito

Taylor is interesting to try and fit in here because of the multi-position situation.

I remember quite a long time ago talking about how Mike Modano was the prime example of an elite offensive player who also managed to be a guy worthy of Selke consideration back in the late 90s and early 00s. I was a little surprised when others pointed out that Sakic (and Forsberg) also technically fit that description. It just didn't square with what I'd remembered seeing and hearing in real time. So I suspect you are correct that a lot of Selke voters were swayed by nothing more than +/- and cast their vote accordingly.

 

[The Macho King]

Sure, Sakic's gaudy plus/minus helped his Selke finish in 2000-01, but what about the other two seasons Sakic was top 10 in Selke voting? IMO, you have these guys rank in order properly, but the biggest gap is probably between Sakic and Esposito. Esposito flat out bled goals against in the second half of his career (his last few years in Boston and his time in NY).

My impression of Taylor (and it's just an impression -nobody really knows for sure) is that Taylor was decent defensively, not great.

My response would be -

His 10th place finish he had 6 total votes (including an inexplicable 1st), which when you remember that media members vote on these awards isn't surprising. His 9th place finish he had 11, again with 2 first place votes.

Most of these voters see Sakic 2-4 times a season. Top 10 finishes in the voting trophies are easily skewed toward a couple of bad votes. For instance, Crosby has a 10th and 9th place Selke finish (and finished 1 voting point behind Brayden Point who is a massively better defensive forward).

So - long story short, my response to your question is voters are pretty stupid by and large.

 

[VMBM]

Specifics of 1978-79 Fetisov injury would be appreciated.

Viktor Tikhonov mentions it only briefly in his book. Apparently the North American media was wondering during the Challenge Cup why Fetisov wasn't part of the team. Tikhonov doesn't go into any specifics, just that Fetisov was injured and thus didn't participate. I don't remember if I've seen the details about it online. But it had to be at least somewhat serious; he missed about 15 games (played 29 out of 44, I think) in the domestic league, and, like said, missed the Challenge Cup and the 1979 World Championship.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Sure, Sakic's gaudy plus/minus helped his Selke finish in 2000-01, but what about the other two seasons Sakic was top 10 in Selke voting? IMO, you have these guys rank in order properly, but the biggest gap is probably between Sakic and Esposito. Esposito flat out bled goals against in the second half of his career (his last few years in Boston and his time in NY).

My impression of Taylor (and it's just an impression -nobody really knows for sure) is that Taylor was decent defensively, not great.

I envision Taylor as a Connor McDavid type of player. Not necessarily a great tactical defender, but was so much faster than everyone else that he could be disruptive simply by using his speed to harass the opposition when they had possession.

 

[Captain Bowie]

The only thing Sakic has on Bossy is his stellar two-way play... in the second half of his career. At their worst, they both were 3rd best players on their teams... but Bossy's was a dynasty.

Who was 2nd if not Sakic? Forsberg? Your argument would rely heavily on a per-gam basis qualifier, and I think it would fall apart because of such.

 

[ted2019]

Give Esposito more credit for what?

He has the worst valley in the playoffs for any player this round and take away Orr from that team he is still probably a top 120 player but way down the list.

As much as I think that Fetisov has some red flags in his NHL play, Esposito has more of them.

But Fetisov made his bones in Russia and International play and Fetisov was the glue of the "Russian 5" for Detroit.