Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
29,807
18,026
As outlined in the preliminary thread, Messier marginally over Bourque - as they were direct contemporaries with Messier generally being considered the better of the two. Playoff edge as well. Potvin after both.

i don't necessarily remember it this way. i would say that through the '80s it was probably the other way around. bourque by the mid-80s establishing himself as one of the league's "mortal MVPs" (my term for the best guy after gretzky/mario) while messier, while tremendous, still having question marks about benefitting from being in a second banana situation.

obviously, messier answers those questions and ups his historical standing big time starting in 1990. but can messier 1990-1996 really put him above bourque's lead, given 1. that bourque's 1990-1996 stretch is one of the greatest seven year stretches in the history of the blueline, and 2. comparing messier post-'97 vs. bourque post-'97 is a sick joke?

messier has the playoffs, yes. but in terms of generally being considered the better of the two, i'd argue that that was only the case during those seven seasons and it's highly arguable in every one of those years, as well as the perceived gap being partly a function of being in a position to look really really good (succeeding gretzky, and then turning around the rangers). that's not to say that those are easy things to do or that messier didn't come through big time, of course. but if bourque was less of a company man (staying with the cheapo bruins and even repeatedly drawing the ire of the NHLPA for taking less than he could have), what could, for instance, a peak bourque landing in chelios' place on the blackhawks look like? unless mike keenan doesn't like his face he probably wins that elusive hart trophy, no?


- Jacques Plante, if everything holds.
- Niklas Lidstrom is dropping a bit from my initial list, but it's mostly due to others rising.

i really like these two as a side-by-side comparison. it just makes too much sense: each guy succeeded an older player coming off a historically great peak and was partially overshadowed by it, each probably didn't initially get enough credit for how great he was because his team was so stacked, each later proved his worth when there was less left in front of him. but possibly also overrated at times because of all the trophies and championships. could go either way on the order.


First impressions:

#1/2. Howie Morenz and Sidney Crosby. These 2 men easily need to go this round.

Link to my megapost about them for future readers: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/151745959/
Link to Howie Morenz's ATD profile:

I'm still not 100% sure what order those two will be in, but I am 100% sure they are my top 2 this round.

digging this comparison too.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
19,278
8,286
Oblivion Express
Jagr has peak offense over Ovechkin, no doubt, but Ovechkin could be argued as the best goal scorer ever and has been consistent in that area for a long time now.

I'm not high on either as postseason performers go but Ovi at least has that career defining run and Smythe to his name (even if Kuz deserved it). Nothing really special outside that though, which is where I'm at on Jagr. He just never stood out over the course of an entire postseason run which is puzzling considering he was so offensively talented.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,783
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Goalie data, as we have a couple available to us here...

Goalie playoff data that I have compiled in good faith, but also manually...(I have made some adjustments to account for GP that weren't really relevant games played, so if you see me off in playoff GP compared to the legend, that's me removing a 20 minute relief appearance that wasn't relevant or some such)...

Giving up the first goal of the game:
Plante 41 in 110 GP (every 2.68 GP)
Hasek 49 in 114 GP (every 2.33 GP)
Roy 107 in 247 GP (every 2.31 GP)
Sawchuk 48 in 103 GP (every 2.15 GP)
Brodeur 96 in 204 GP (every 2.13 GP)
Dryden 55 in 112 GP (every 2.04 GP)
Hall 68 in 114 GP (every 1.68 GP)


By year...

Patrick RoyGPWLGAFirst Goal
1986201553910
1987642223
1988834245
198919136429
19901156266
19911375407
19921147305
199320164466
1994633163
199622166519
199717107387
1998734183
199919118528
200017116316
200123167419
2002211110528
2003734163
Total24715194584107
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dominik HasekGPGAFG
199220281
1994734133
1995514184
199731151
199815105325
199919136367
2000514122
20011376296
200223167459
2007181083410
2008422101
Total114644924249
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jacques PlanteGPGAFG
195343172
1954853143
19551163291
19561082183
19571082174
19581082205
19591183263
1960880110
1961624164
1962624195
1963514144
19691082144
197064181
197120271
197210151
1973202100
Total110713623541
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
3rd period/OT lead management

"Surr. 3rd lead" means that goalie's team had a lead in the 3rd period and lost it.
"Surr. 3rd/OT tie" means that goalie's team was even with opponent in the 3rd period or OT and lost it.

Note: You can lose surrender a 3rd period lead AND a 3rd/OT tie in the same game. You can surrender them multiple times in a game, in fact. The per-game metric does not reflect the amount of leads or ties had, it is exactly what it says: per game.

Surrendered 3rd per lead:
Sawchuk 7 in 103 (every 14.71 GP)
Dryden 9 in 112 (every 12.44 GP)

Plante 10 in 110 (every 11 GP)
Brodeur 25 in 204 (every 8.16 GP)
Hall 15 in 114 (every 7.60 GP)

Hasek 16 in 114 (every 7.13 GP)
Roy 44 in 247 (every 5.61 GP)

By year...

Patrick RoyGPWLGASurr. 3rd lead
198620155392
1987642222
1988834242
198919136424
19901156261
19911375401
19921147301
199320164465
1994633160
199622166516
199717107383
1998734183
199919118522
200017116311
200123167414
2002211110526
2003734161
Total2471519458444
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dominik HasekGPWLGASurr. 3rd lead
199220281
1994734130
1995514180
199731151
199815105324
199919136361
2000514120
20011376293
200223167451
200718108344
2008422101
Total114644924216
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jacques PlanteGPWLGASurr. 3rd lead
195343170
1954853141
19551163291
19561082180
19571082170
19581082201
19591183262
1960880112
1961624160
1962624190
1963514140
19691082142
197064180
197120271
197210150
1973202100
Total110713623510
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
3rd period/OT lead management

"Surr. 3rd lead" means that goalie's team had a lead in the 3rd period and lost it.
"Surr. 3rd/OT tie" means that goalie's team was even with opponent in the 3rd period or OT and lost it.

Note: You can lose surrender a 3rd period lead AND a 3rd/OT tie in the same game. You can surrender them multiple times in a game, in fact. The per-game metric does not reflect the amount of leads or ties had, it is exactly what it says: per game.

Surrendered 3rd period/OT tie:
Plante 15 in 110 (every 7.33 GP)
Sawchuk 22 in 103 (every 4.68 GP)
Dryden 24 in 112 (every 4.67 GP)

Roy 59 in 247 (every 4.19 GP)
Brodeur 53 in 204 (every 3.85 GP)
Hasek 34 in 114 (every 3.35 GP)
Hall 36 in 114 (every 3.17 GP)

By year...

Patrick RoyGPWLGASurr. 3rd/OT tie
198620155392
1987642221
1988834243
198919136423
19901156262
19911375406
19921147302
199320164465
1994633161
199622166512
199717107385
1998734182
199919118527
200017116312
200123167418
2002211110525
2003734163
Total2471519458459
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dominik HasekGPWLGASurr. 3rd/OT tie
199220282
1994734132
1995514181
199731150
199815105326
199919136364
2000514122
20011376294
200223167457
200718108345
2008422101
Total114644924234
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jacques PlanteGPWLGASurr. 3rd/OT tie
195343170
1954853140
19551163292
19561082181
19571082173
19581082200
19591183263
1960880110
1961624163
1962624191
1963514140
19691082140
197064180
197120272
197210150
1973202100
Total110713623515
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Managing momentum/game script/compounding problems...

Surrendering a goal within ~2 minutes of any other goal is deflating and cancels the emotion of your goal or really lets the game get off the rails for you...

Note: 2 minutes is not a solid number, because the difference between 2:00 and 2:07 is irrelevant, the shift length, amount of whistles, the time of the game, the overall score, and many other factors (road/home, etc.) factor into this...I made a judgment call on some of these. To my knowledge, it never, ever exceeds three minutes though. Full disclosure: There are times when I take a goal that happens 2:34 after another, but a time where I won't take one that's 2:10 after another based on my sense of the game script...this happens very rarely, but I want to say the words. In a near-future post, I will compile something called "Garbage Time Goals" - garbage goals are not tabulated in any other category, including this one. So giving up boom-boom, two quick ones at 18:24 and 19:01 of the 3rd period to make 8-1 then 8-2 is not relevant. Further, spanning a period does not count (i.e. a goal at 19:01 of the 1st and then 0:24 of the 2nd does not register here...that would take a greater game script read and more liberties than I thought I should be afforded).

Surrender a goal within 2 mins. of any other goal...(maybe this should be a per goal rate instead of per game? I'm providing the data, yous can interpret it)
Brodeur 37 in 204 (every 5.51 GP)
Hasek 21 in 114 (every 5.43 GP)
Roy 48 in 247 (every 5.15 GP)
Plante 29 in 110 (every 3.79 GP)
Hall 40 in 114 (every 2.85 GP)
Dryden 41 in 112 (every 2.73 GP)
Sawchuk 44 in 103 (every 2.34 GP)


By year...

Patrick RoyGPWLGASurr. Goal w/in 2
198620155392
1987642222
1988834242
198919136423
19901156264
19911375406
19921147302
199320164465
1994633162
199622166514
199717107383
1998734180
199919118525
200017116312
200123167410
2002211110524
2003734162
Total2471519458448
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Dominik HasekGPWLGASurr. Goal w/in 2
199220280
1994734131
1995514183
199731151
199815105324
199919136362
2000514120
20011376291
200223167451
200718108343
2008422105
Total114644924221
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jacques PlanteGPWLGASurr. Goal w/in 2
195343170
1954853142
19551163290
19561082184
19571082174
19581082201
19591183264
1960880113
1961624162
1962624191
1963514142
19691082141
197064180
197120272
197210151
1973202102
Total110713623529
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Garbage time goals.

Goals that have only an impact on statistics and, in the vast majority of cases, do not impact the game...goals that were scored against a team up or down 3 or more in the 3rd period and goals that were scored against a team up or down 5 or more goals at any time were rinsed out...

Garbage time goals (new playoff GAA with these goals, but not minutes removed by a lazy, lazy man)
Plante 30 (2.12 -> 1.85)
Brodeur 30 (2.02 -> 1.88)
Sawchuk 24 (2.53 -> 2.30)

Roy 23 (2.30 -> 2.21)
Hall 18 (2.79 -> 2.63)
Dryden 18 (2.41 -> 2.25)

Hasek 12 (2.02 -> 1.92)


Roy was left in as a means of comparison...seemed kosher...

Looking at key goals allowed in the playoffs within a group of over 5 goalies - larger sample space, changes the narrative.Dominik Hasek fades quickly but Jacques Plante rises like cream..

Plante was the stingiest at giving up the first goal of the game and by far the best at protecting 3rd period leads. Hasek was a reasonable second - first goal, distant 6th protecting leads in non-contentious catagories.

Let's look at RS efforts.

Why do goalies contend for maybe win Hart Trophies? Key element is keeping the team in the game.

RS team goals against by period are available from 1933-34 to date.

Key goalies. Format GA 1st/2nd/3rd period. * Hart Winner. OT not included since OT was not played all seasons. Transcribed in good faith.

2014-15 Carey Price* 59/63/61
2001-02 Jose Theodore* 60/66/80
Dominik Hasek*
1997-98* 73/59/54
1996-97* 72/83/90

1961-62 Jacques Plante* 59/57/50

1953-54 Al Rollins * 76/80/84
1952-53 Al Rollins 57/57/61

1949-50 Chuck Rayner* 57/67/65

Harry Lumley
1954-55 43/49/43
1953-54 59/39/42

Roman Turek
56/61/47

Dominik Hasek was not the strongest Hart winner. From from. Just like he is far behind Jacques Plante this round.

More to come
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,990
Brooklyn
"I learned a lot last year. Of course, last year was not my role on the team. With more ice I can give more to the team. It was [Hunter's] decision and he had his own mind and his own kind of personality and his own systems. Of course sometimes I felt trapped."

- Ovechkin on Dale Hunter after he was canned.

Not saying that Jagr did it better...he didn't. But this is a little flowery for my tastes...

TBH, I thought this was so obvious, I didn't bother posting it. Of course, Ovechkin felt trapped by Hunter's system . What Ovechkin-type player wouldn't?
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
49,079
30,014
I seem to remember an argument that Jágr bought in defensively when playing for the Czech national team - without sacrificing as much offence as Ovechkin. Any takes on this?
My take is "that's not nearly a sufficient sample size to make a good argument."
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,990
Brooklyn
I seem to remember an argument that Jágr bought in defensively when playing for the Czech national team - without sacrificing as much offence as Ovechkin. Any takes on this?

If true (and I'd want more details), it doesn't make Jagr's 5th place scoring finish in 01-02 less empty.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,456
4,638
As i posted earlier in this thread there is no justification for Morenz over Crosby. Zero, IMHO.

Sid's regular season resume is every bit as impressive as Morenz and Morenz was written as if he was the Babe Ruth of hockey (that was actually used to describe him). I've always had a problem with the folk lore surrounding Morenz. Nothing anyone has presented has shown he dominated the league for years at a level that would be commensurate with that kind of grandeur. Was Morenz the best player in hockey? I think so, at least a handful of seasons, but he never lapped the field or did anything that to me, was extraordinary the way he was written about...specially by Montreal papers btw.

Crosby's 7 year VsX is one spot ahead of Howie and Sid separates in the 10 year version meaning his scoring was consistent for longer. And he's still better than a PPG player heading into his early 30's.

He had 8 top 3 scoring finishes to Morenz's 5. And that's with Sid losing 2 of his best/prime years to freak injuries that were no fault of his own. Remember 2010-11 he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games. We're not talking 10-15 games here. It's a season that pisses me off personally because it's the most dominant I've seen a player offensively since Mario and it was ruined with very questionable hits to the head. That's an Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay lost. Crosby could have dropped off a cliff the 2nd half of the season (say to a PPG) and still won the Ross and goal scoring titles with relative ease.

Then again in 2012-13 he takes a slap shot to the face by his own guy and it takes the rest of the field an entire month almost to catch and pass him in the scoring race. More hardware lost due to asinine circumstances. This isn't a guy who was out of shape or loafing. He was targeted by other teams with dirty play and had a 1 in a 1000 puck to the jaw happen. And yet he still holds up in the regular season to Morenz. Crosby also never skated with an elite winger like Joliat for any length of time, let alone the bulk of his career as Morenz was fortunate enough to.

Crosby blows Morenz out of the water in AS finishes, even when you give Howie 2 more for seasons I listed below since AS voting only started in 1931.


Scoring Finishes:


Howie Morenz

1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

Sidney Crosby

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6


Also a look at 7 and 10 year VsX








-Mikita and Crosby hold up the best both in 7 and 10 year versions. Morenz looks strong in the 7 year study but drops considerably in the 10 year. Messier lags well behind the other 3.


Hart Trophy Voting:


Morenz:

1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 7,

Crosby:

1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

-Morenz has the most wins with 3, but Crosby probably edges him out when looking at depth of finishes. . This is Crosby>Morenz, especially when you consider Crosby lost nearly 2 years of his prime and a season where he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games (not exactly a small sample size).


AS Finishes:


Morenz*

1, 1, 2

Crosby

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2


-Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby.

Morenz after the age of 29 was finished as an elite type player, at least offensively. A guy like Messier actually had one of his best seasons after 30 (1992) and another Hart caliber year at age 35. Crosby doesn't seem to be slowing down as he is now into his early 30's.


Morenz Playoff Caliber Player is a question mark to me

Post consolidation results:

1927 - 1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's.

1928 - 0 points in 2 games. Out in round 1.

1929 - 0 points in 3 games. Out in round 1.

1930 - He has 1 goal in the 2 game Cup final. 4 players scored more than he did for Montreal.

1931 - He scores 1 lonely goal in 5 (FIVE) games in Cup final. 5 players score more, including Johnny Gagnon with 4 goals and 6 points.

1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

15 points in 35 games after consolidation. And in the 2 years Montreal did win the Cup, Morenz was almost completely shut down. We see far less talented players stepping up.

Other random players totals in same or similar time periods (all post consolidation #'s):

Johnny Gagnon - 24 points in 32 games
Aurele Joliat - 19 in 40
Bill Cook - 24 in 46
Joe Primeau 23 in 38
Charlie Conacher 35 in 49
Harry Oliver 16 in 35


Crosby is utterly dominant in the postseason and on the international stage:

-Crosby's dominance in the postseason might not be held as high as it should be, especially considering his career is nowhere near complete. By age 30 he had done:

-3 Cup wins in 4 tries. Been to 5 Conference finals.

-Crosby is only the 3rd player in NHL history to win back to back Conn Smythes.

-8th all time in playoff points per game

-185 points already puts him in a tie for 10th place with Steve Yzerman.

-63 Career Multi Point games in playoffs (3rd all time) in 160 games.

-Consider, Jari Kurri, playing in the highest scoring era of all time, had 60 MPG's but needed 200 contests to reach that. Mark Messier, 2nd all time, had 77 in 236 games.


2 Olympic Gold medals in 2 tries (2010/2014)
-Scored Golden goal in OT of gold medal game 2010
1 World Championship Gold (2015)
1 World Cup of Hockey Gold (2016)
-MVP and leading scorer
1 World Junior Gold (2005)


-Also named Best Forward at World Championship in 2006

-Youngest Player in history to win a World Championship scoring title (2006)

-Member of Quadruple Gold Club (Gold medeal at World Junior, WC', Olympics, and WCOH)

-Only player in hockey history to captain every team of the quad/triple gold clubs.

-Orr, Gretzky and Crosby are the three players in history to win the Hart Trophy, the Conn Smythe Trophy, and MVP at the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey.

-He is the 6th player in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup three times with two Olympic gold medals. Crosby joins Igor Larionov, Martin Brodeur, Scott Niedermayer, Duncan Keith, and Jonathan Toews as the players who make up that prestigious fraternity


Summery:

The simple reality is that Sid is every bit as impressive as Morenz (i think slightly more so) as a regular season player. Especially when you consider he lost 2 of his prime years to injury that were either cheap hits or freak accidents. His peak scoring is as good. His longevity as a scorer is better. His hardware is every bit as impressive, especially depth of finishes.

But where Crosby really separates is in the postseason. I simply can't see how anyone views Morenz as anything more than an inconsistent playoff performer especially when you look at post consolidation totals. He was routinely shut down in the postseason or saw others step up in his "absence". As I pointed out the 2 Cups that he was a part of in 1930 and 31 he scored 2 goals in 7 games.

In 1930 Morenz scored 0 points in the semi finals and then 1 goal in the 2 game Cup finals being outscored by Albert Ludac, Sylvio Mantha, Pit Lepine and Nick Wasine.

In 1931 Morenz was the leading scorer for Montreal against Boston in the semi's with 4 assists in 5 games.

But in the Cup final? Completely shut down by a much weaker Chicago team scoring 1 goal in 5 games. Johnny Gagnon scored 6 points (4/2), Pit Lepine 4 points, Mantha 3, Wasnie and Joliat with 2 points each. Hainsworth was very impressive giving up only 8 goals in 5 games.

Crosby is this generations best playoff performer. Only Malkin really comes close. I certainly don't think Howie Morenz can lay claim to that title in the 20's and 30's. I don't even know if he was Montreal's best player, at least post consolidation anyway.

Throw in what Sid has done on the international stages and to me there is a clear gap. But I know some won't agree, and that's fine. The numbers, awards and overall resume for 87 are simply better almost entirely across the board.

For all the criticism you level towards Morenz's playoff resume, you seem to give Crosby a free pass for 2010-2015. And I certainly see why somebody might do that on the basis of the stats sheet, but this simply neglects the tremendous differences the playoff format caused.

Take 1927, where you've pointed out that Morenz had "1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's". Accurate statement, not a great look.

But is this really any different than 2013? Crosby had "0 points in 4 games. Out in semi's" against the Bruins. Does Crosby racking up some nice point totals against Ottawa and NY Islanders really count for anything here? I don't think it should. The Penguins goals that year were certainly loftier than getting swept in the semi final.

All the things you point out about Morenz in 1931 can also be applied to Crosby, who was similarly shut down in the 2009 final, (1 G, 2A) in 7 games. Other players had to step up to win Pittsburgh the Cup in this instance, same as Montreal in 1931.

Does this:

1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

Honestly look all that different that this:

2010 - 1 goal in 7 games vs Montreal. Pittsburgh out in the quarters.

2014 - 1 goal, 2 assists in 7 games against NY Rangers. Pittsburgh out in quarters.

2015 - Crosby was better with 4 points in 5 games. Pittsburgh still knocked out in 1st round.

The idea that Crosby was a better playoff performer than Morenz by any great degree is built entirely on the strength of scoring totals accumulated in the early rounds during the 4-round/best-of-7 era, when playoff scoring remained at a comparable level to regular season scoring.

If the Penguins had regularly been a sizeable underdog in these first round playoff series, I think it would be easier to ascribe some value to them. But they were pretty much always favoured, usually significantly. So I just don't see playoff series like 2010 vs Ottawa or 2013 vs NY Islanders are really being worth anything. And these are the series that create the apparent gulf between Crosby and Morenz. Similar opportunities simply did not exist in Morenz' time.

To expand on this as it concerns the rest of the candidates...what Mark Messier did in the 1980s against Winnipeg and Los Angeles is similarly near-worthless. What he did against the Flames, Islanders, Flyers, and Bruins is what we should interested in. Stan Mikita in the early 70's first rounds against the new expansion teams? Unimportant. Montreal, Boston, NY were the real competition.

I enter this voting round with Morenz and Crosby as my 1-2 coming in. So I don't need to be sold on either player. But if somebody is knocking Morenz down a peg for playoffs, it is inconsistent IMO to elevate Crosby for his. Further study may indicate that this is also true for Morenz in relation to other candidates as well.
 
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ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,125
1,425
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Best NHL Careers after age 30

D'ja ever think about this one? First place is no suspense- it's Gordie Howe by a continent. How about second place, though? Doesn't Nicklas Lidström have a great case for this one? After age 30, he went...

AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Norris: 6x
Oh, yeah- and a Smythe/Cup, too.

(not to belabor the point, but he also missed a season due to the Lockout and still did what he did.)

He's one of those rare guys of whom it can be said- you could take his career, split it in two, and have two first-ballot Hall-of-Famers.

If you could get a player on a "lifetime-services" contract, wouldn't this guy absolutely be on your short-list? A perennial All-Star whom you can count on to stay healthy and play smart, productive, percentage hockey up to and including age 40?!

On my rough draft, I had Lidström ahead of Bourque. On my submitted list, I put Bourque in front. Now, I'm not so sure that I didn't have it right the first time...
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
31,063
13,996
Denis Potvin on why he sacrificed some of his offense

May 14, 1984

There are times - although not as often as in the days when he was scoring in the 100-point neighborhood - when Potvin takes the puck on what seems a leisurely excursion. He holds it on his stick far in front, a carrot to a charging forward, and suddenly he tucks it away and is off, effortlessly, powerfully, toward opposition territory.

But that style is not what Denis Potvin is about these days as the Islanders, the team he captains, move their Stanley Cup championship series to Edmonton, tied at one game apiece.

He has sacrificed that famed offensive thrust in order to fit in more with the makeup of the team. Although it seems new to many who see Potvin only in the playoffs, it is a style he adapted several years ago and with which he has grown comfortable.

He changed several years ago, when Coach Al Arbour told him that, finally, there were enough other talented offensive players on the team.

''This is a conscious effort on my part,'' he says. ''There are times in the neutral zone I never touch the puck. The reason is my long relationship with Al. He's been a key figure in demonstrating to me that the puck will come to you if you wait. I like to have the puck in front of me so I can take in all the ice. When I'm chasing it, I don't see the ice. Also, my first four years here I was the leading scorer. As the team settled in, there was less reason for me to carry so much.''

[...]

Now that Potvin no longer is a 100- point man, he seems distressed (but doesn't actually complain) that the award usually goes to a defenseman who produces a high amount of points.

''I'm glad to see that Rod Langway got the Norris even though he wasn't the leading scorer,'' Potvin says of the Washington defenseman who won the award last season.

THE CHANGING LIVES OF DENIS POTVIN
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
12,143
6,631
Dom needed to actually join a dynasty to finally win a Cup btw. Ironic.

Hasek went to game 6 double OT of the SCFs with a team where the best scorers (in said playoffs) were Jason Woolley and Alexei Zhitnik.

If you're gonna disqualify every player winning a Cup on a dynasty, that's quite a bunch of high profile players.
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
31,063
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Best NHL Careers after age 30

D'ja ever think about this one? First place is no suspense- it's Gordie Howe by a continent. How about second place, though? Doesn't Nicklas Lidström have a great case for this one? After age 30, he went...

AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Norris: 6x
Oh, yeah- and a Smythe/Cup, too.

(not to belabor the point, but he also missed a season due to the Lockout and still did what he did.)

He's one of those rare guys of whom it can be said- you could take his career, split it in two, and have two first-ballot Hall-of-Famers.

If you could get a player on a "lifetime-services" contract, wouldn't this guy absolutely be on your short-list? A perennial All-Star whom you can count on to stay healthy and play smart, productive, percentage hockey up to and including age 40?!

On my rough draft, I had Lidström ahead of Bourque. On my submitted list, I put Bourque in front. Now, I'm not so sure that I didn't have it right the first time...

Not so rare for a defenseman.Doug Harvey's entire prime was almost all after 30.All his Norris trophies were won after age 30.

Chara is another recent example.

So basically, Harvey is the player with the greatest career after 30, including Howe and everyone else.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
23,441
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Just some more on Morenz vs Crosby for playoffs.

On the playoff project we did here - Morenz wasn't ranked in the top 40 (and although he was eligible in the last vote - i don't recall him getting a ton of traction, so he arguably isn't even super close to #40).
Sidney Crosby was ranked #28 - and this was *before* his 2017 Conn Smythe (arguably his best playoff run overall) and his 2018 run (which - although only 2 rounds - is an extremely good one throughout). I would expect this should easily propel him to a top 20 playoff performer all time, if not even higher.

I think the gap for playoffs between Crosby and Morenz is considerable. I actually also think Crosby is ahead in regular season (look at PPG and not just vsx, era domination is very clear for Crosby imo) - but even if people disagree I expect the gap there is smaller than playoffs.

Finally - Sidney Crosby has one of the most impressive international resumes of all time. Maybe some voters don't give a ton of importance to that - but it should still carry *some* weight. Net positive for Crosby and too bad for Morenz for lack of opportunity - a further differentiation.

I think Crosby should definitely rank ahead of Morenz here.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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Not so rare for a defenseman.Doug Harvey's entire prime was almost all after 30.All his Norris trophies were won after 30.Chara is another recent example.

So basically, Harvey is actually the one with the greatest career after 30, including Howe and everyone else.
If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Doug Harvey post age 30>Gordie Howe post 30. Now, I like Harvey and all- and pursuing this is immaterial to the present discussion, but really?!?

I like Chara too, and hope that we'll talk about him before the curtain falls on this project... but please don't tell me that you actually believe that post-30 Chara is within three time zones of post-30 Lidström.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
31,063
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If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Doug Harvey post age 30>Gordie Howe post 30. Now, I like Harvey and all- and pursuing this is immaterial to the present discussion, but really?!?

I like Chara too, and hope that we'll talk about him before the curtain falls on this project... but please don't tell me that you actually believe that post-30 Chara is within three time zones of post-30 Lidström.

Bolded #1: Yes.

Bolded #2: Not sure how you inferred that from my post...
 
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VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

How about EVIDENCE rather than assumptions?

Let's get back to trying to convince...
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
23,441
16,841
Crosby vs Hasek

Playoffs.

Crosby has 4 signature “smythe-worthy” runs where he was a top 2 playoff performer in his team’s run to the cups. He also has 2018 where I think he was the clear best player through 2 rounds, and a whole lot of consistency and production outside of those runs (yes some runs were disappointing losses, but this happens for all players).

Hasek has 2 “smythe-worthy” runs – in 1999 and 2002. He also has some mileage in the playoffs outside of those 2, but less so than Crosby.

Decision:

Net advantage for Crosby in playoffs. You could argue that none of Crosby’s individual playoff runs are necessarily an all-time great one – and maybe that’s true. But still, 4 “smythe worthy” runs is terrific, and he has a lot of extra playoffs outside of those 4 too.

International Stage:

Sidney Crosby has the 2010 golden goal. And although he wasn’t necessarily the best player in that tourney (wasn’t bad, just not great) – the importance of the goal is significant, on home soil for Canada. Also – his 2014 olympics were very strong. It helps that in both cases he was team captain (2014) or assistant (2010) in terms of leadership responsibilities. Moreso than just being captain - he was undoubtedly the most heavily scrutinized player in both tourneys and he came through being very clutch in big moments. Although people don’t like the 2016 world cup – it was still a best on best tournament and Crosby excelled as MVP, and this counts too. Outside of those 3 big events – Crosby has a lot of other mileage for Canada, at world championships, etc and generally performed very well.

Dominik Hasek has one of the most impressive performances of all time on the International stage in 98 at Nagano. And whereas in terms of importance you can draw a parallel with 98 gold for Hasek to 2010 gold for Crosby – there’s no denying that Hasek’s performance was the more significant one. Hasek also has a lot of mileage outside of 98 internationally, though probably a bit less success than Crosby.

Decision:

Draw. Boring result I suppose, but let’s just call it even and move on I think. Both are great in this metric and I don’t think this should be what decides it between them.

Regular season :

Dominik Hasek has 6 “great” seasons and a bunch of good ones (probably 6 more). The 2 harts and pearsons for a goalie are extremely noteworthy of course, very much so. Two of the best seasons of all time for a goalie.

Sidney Crosby himself has 6 “great” seasons, arguably 7 if you include 2011. He also has a bunch of good ones (probably 5 more). Sidney Crosby’s domination over peers in terms of PPG is very significant throughout his prime. It’s greater than even Gordie Howe 14 years into his career - and at first glance it might be the biggest ppg domination over peers out of anyone outside of Mario & Gretzky for 14 seasons.

Decision:

I’ll probably go with Crosby again. I like offense and his PPG domination over peers of his era is pretty significant. He’s also been more consistent overall in the regular season, and even though he's only 31 he doesn't even lose on the longevity front vs Hasek.

Conclusion:

Well – it’s easy enough based on simple math that I have Crosby ahead, since he’s ahead in playoffs and regular season (though this one is much closer).

These should be two of my very top players in this round.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,125
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If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Doug Harvey post age 30>Gordie Howe post 30. Now, I like Harvey and all- and pursuing this is immaterial to the present discussion, but really?!?
Bolded #1: Yes.
Oh, dear... NSIS---

If this were a motion, it would probably die for lack of a second:

Gordie Howe after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2- 3x Hart, 1 Hart runner-up, 4 more Hart finalists- and 2x Ross

Doug Harvey after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2, 6x Norris, 1x Hart runner-up, and 1 more Hart finalist
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
31,063
13,996
Oh, dear... NSIS---

If this were a motion, it would probably die for lack of a second:

Gordie Howe after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2- 3x Hart, 1 Hart runner-up, 4 more Hart finalists- and 2x Ross

Doug Harvey after age 30:
AS: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2, 6x Norris, 1x Hart runner-up, and 1 more Hart finalist

Harvey has the sick 5 straight playoff runs too.Post-30 is almost his entire career.

I feel there's more value in Harvey's 8 straight years as by far the best D in the league than Howe's level in his 30s, regardless of the awards and recognition.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
49,079
30,014
Crosby vs Hasek

Playoffs.

Crosby has 4 signature “smythe-worthy” runs where he was a top 2 playoff performer in his team’s run to the cups. He also has 2018 where I think he was the clear best player through 2 rounds, and a whole lot of consistency and production outside of those runs (yes some runs were disappointing losses, but this happens for all players).

Hasek has 2 “smythe-worthy” runs – in 1999 and 2002. He also has some mileage in the playoffs outside of those 2, but less so than Crosby.

Decision:

Net advantage for Crosby in playoffs. You could argue that none of Crosby’s individual playoff runs are necessarily an all-time great one – and maybe that’s true. But still, 4 “smythe worthy” runs is terrific, and he has a lot of extra playoffs outside of those 4 too.

International Stage:

Sidney Crosby has the 2010 golden goal. And although he wasn’t necessarily the best player in that tourney (wasn’t bad, just not great) – the importance of the goal is significant, on home soil for Canada. Also – his 2014 olympics were very strong. It helps that in both cases he was team captain (2014) or assistant (2010) in terms of leadership responsibilities. Moreso than just being captain - he was undoubtedly the most heavily scrutinized player in both tourneys and he came through being very clutch in big moments. Although people don’t like the 2016 world cup – it was still a best on best tournament and Crosby excelled as MVP, and this counts too. Outside of those 3 big events – Crosby has a lot of other mileage for Canada, at world championships, etc and generally performed very well.

Dominik Hasek has one of the most impressive performances of all time on the International stage in 98 at Nagano. And whereas in terms of importance you can draw a parallel with 98 gold for Hasek to 2010 gold for Crosby – there’s no denying that Hasek’s performance was the more significant one. Hasek also has a lot of mileage outside of 98 internationally, though probably a bit less success than Crosby.

Decision:

Draw. Boring result I suppose, but let’s just call it even and move on I think. Both are great in this metric and I don’t think this should be what decides it between them.

Regular season :

Dominik Hasek has 6 “great” seasons and a bunch of good ones (probably 6 more). The 2 harts and pearsons for a goalie are extremely noteworthy of course, very much so. Two of the best seasons of all time for a goalie.

Sidney Crosby himself has 6 “great” seasons, arguably 7 if you include 2011. He also has a bunch of good ones (probably 5 more). Sidney Crosby’s domination over peers in terms of PPG is very significant throughout his prime. It’s greater than even Gordie Howe 14 years into his career - and at first glance it might be the biggest ppg domination over peers out of anyone outside of Mario & Gretzky for 14 seasons.

Decision:

I’ll probably go with Crosby again. I like offense and his PPG domination over peers of his era is pretty significant. He’s also been more consistent overall in the regular season, and even though he's only 31 he doesn't even lose on the longevity front vs Hasek.

Conclusion:

Well – it’s easy enough based on simple math that I have Crosby ahead, since he’s ahead in playoffs and regular season (though this one is much closer).

These should be two of my very top players in this round.
Hasek's 6 seasons weren't "great" - they are up there with the peak stretch of the Big 4. What knocks him out of contention is post-peak was pretty mediocre, and he is relatively disappointing in the playoffs (with the aforementioned "quitting" in two of his postseasons).

I don't think Hasek v. Crosby is anywhere close. It's Hasek by a good amount. Crosby isn't at Roy-levels of playoff performance, so I don't see nearly enough there to make up the large gap in their regular seasons.
 
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