Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[The Macho King]

Jagr is a plus playoff performer for me...he was the bell cow for a team that had largely no third or fourth line, no defense and little goaltending...he was a horse in the postseason though overall...

I don't think he "elevated" his play in the postseason. He has some good runs. He has some bad ones (2001 Pitt is at minimum disappointing). But he didn't really drag Pitt beyond where it would have gone anyway - he doesn't have an equivalent run to Hasek's '99 run, or Bourque's '83, '88, or '89 runs where he drags a team farther than they have any business being.

Obviously doesn't approach Potvin, Plante, Messier, or Lidstrom in this vote in the playoffs. For playoffs he's probably at Ovechkin/Mikita level, which is pretty close to the bottom of this round.

 

[The Macho King]

That's pretty simplistic. I think if you put up their best 5 or so seasons against one another Jagr looks quite good. That's a more useful exercise of comparing peaks than just counting harts. Maybe Hasek still comes out ahead over 5 years im just saying we should look at it more closely, they're both very very strong in this metric, you can't just count harts.

Also - Jagr has more longevity/career worth outside of his peak than Hasek does, so that helps as well.

I wasn't suggesting that was the entirety of my Hasek/Jagr analysis. I don't think Hasek/Jagr is anywhere close to close, especially when factoring in positional biases in Hart voting. Jagr is the bottom of this round for me most likely, although I guess I could be convinced to put him over Mikita if someone gives me more info on him (I'm kind of lowering on the non-Hull Blackhawks because *someone* has to feel the wrath for their postseason disappointments).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, Eddie Shore, and Nicklas Lidstrom are in a class of their own among defensemen

Based on awards recognition, nobody else (except Orr of course) was all that close to these guys in being considered the best at his position time and time again.

Since the great consolidation of 1926-27:

Most Norris Trophies (or equivalent*):
Bobby Orr 8
Eddie Shore 8*
Doug Harvey 7
Nicklas Lidstrom 7
Raymond Bourque 5
Red Kelly 4
Pierre Pilote 3
Denis Potvin 3
Chris Chelios 3
Paul Coffey 3
Dit Clapper 2*
Bill Quackenbush 2*
Larry Robinson 2
Rod Langway 2
Duncan Keith 2
Erik Karlsson 2

*Retro Norrises according to awards voting: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/36803605/

Most Times 1st Team All Star
*1926-27 and 1927-28 based on unoffical All-Star teams voted by NHL GMs. 1928-29 and 1929-30 estimated based off Hart voting

Raymond Bourque 13
Doug Harvey 10
Nicklas Lidstrom 10
Eddie Shore 9
Bobby Orr 8
Red Kelly 6
King Clancy 5
Pierre Pilote 5
Brad Park 5
Denis Potvin 5
Chris Chelios 5
Paul Coffey 4
Earl Seibert 4
Al MacInnis 4
Erik Karlsson
Ching Johnson 3
Babe Siebert 3
Dit Clapper 3
Butch Bouchard 3
Jack Stewart 3
Bill Quackenbush 3
Bill Gadsby 3
Tim Horton 3
Larry Robinson 3
Mark Howe 3
Scott Niedermayer 3
Zdeno Chara 3

Most Times 1st or 2nd Team All Star

*1926-27 and 1927-28 based on unoffical All-Star teams voted by NHL GMs. 1928-29 and 1929-30 estimated based off Hart voting
Raymond Bourque 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 12
Doug Harvey 11
Eddie Shore 10
Earl Seibert 10
Bobby Orr 9
King Clancy 8
Red Kelly 8
Pierre Pilote 8
Paul Coffey 8
Bill Gadsby 7
Brad Park 7
Denis Potvin 7
Al MacInnis 7
Chris Chelios 7
Zdeno Chara 7
Ching Johnson 6
Tim Horton 6
Borge Salming 6
Larry Robinson 6
Ken Reardon 5
Jack Stewart 5
Bill Quackenbush 5
Scott Stevens 5
Brian Leetch 5

 

[The Macho King]

I disagree to an extent TDMM - I don't think Red Kelly is necessarily a tier below the Harvey/Bourque/Shore/Lidstrom/Potvin tier. And Potvin is given a ton of credit for the Islanders dynasty - if we elevate Harvey so high largely for his position on a dynasty (where at times he may have been 3rd/4th most important player), how do we not do the same for Potvin who was easily the most important piece of the Islanders dynasty?

 

[Beau Knows]

There are 30 teams but to win the cup you more often have to face top centers.Maybe you'll avoid them, then good for you, but there's still less glory in that than facing the best and winning.This is why we care about level of competition when comparing players.Not sure why we would ignore it all of a sudden.

Federer winning the French Open was nice, and there's some merit in showing up every time in case the top dogs don't so you can grab the low hanging fruit, but it doesn't come with the same level of glory than when he did beat Nadal in the Australian Open 2017 for example (though in that case Nadal was not in his prime, but neither was Federer).

How do you decide which top centers matter in these match ups. You would think the ones in your division would be the most important, and statistically significant since you'll likely face them the most. These 3 centers are all in his division and are generally considered top 10 centers and here are his numbers against those players:

Backstrom: 30 points in 26 games games against Caps
Giroux: 21 points in 12 games against Flyers (not counting time before Giroux established himself) both macthups occurred during Giroux's best seasons where we has one of the top players in the league having 93 and 102 point seasons
Tavares: 9 points in 6 games against Isles

Additional the Penguins won 5 out 7 series.

 

[MXD]

HOWIE MORENZ STUFF REPOSTED FOR FUTURE READERS

To the same effect :

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...e-2-back-in-the-habit.2566591/#post-151899947
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...e-2-back-in-the-habit.2566591/#post-151900497
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...e-2-back-in-the-habit.2566591/#post-151902023

My post about the quasi-chronic lower assists awarded to Canadiens players (for whatever reason) during the first four years of Morenz' career (actually, from the beginning of the NHL, but it's not relevant to go back so far for Morenz' purposes).

The TL;DR version :

So Morenz, instead of going 25-7-32, goes 25-10-35. It doesn't change things THAT much (remains 3rd in scoring, only now he's only 1 point being Irvin and 2 points behind Bill Cook), but it's not totally insignificant. Unless I got things wrong, That was his "100" season on VsX, and, if we're to keep the initial Morenz as the benchmark, the "100" becomes a "109.4".

For the record, Bill Cook was on a league-average-with-Canadiens team. Dick Irvin, on the other hand, was on a team that was well above league-average-with-Canadiens : the Hawks were awarded 0.56 assists per goal, in comparison to the 0.34 assists per goal awarded to the Canadiens. They scored quite a bit of goals too, and Dick Irvin was the league leader in assists (with 18; closest was Frank Boucher, Bill Cook's center, with 15).

Bottom line : If you want to conclude that Howie Morenz should've finished 2nd in scoring in 1926-27, I'm not stopping you.

 

[ImporterExporter]

As i posted earlier in this thread there is no justification for Morenz over Crosby. Zero, IMHO.

Sid's regular season resume is every bit as impressive as Morenz and Morenz was written as if he was the Babe Ruth of hockey (that was actually used to describe him). I've always had a problem with the folk lore surrounding Morenz. Nothing anyone has presented has shown he dominated the league for years at a level that would be commensurate with that kind of grandeur. Was Morenz the best player in hockey? I think so, at least a handful of seasons, but he never lapped the field or did anything that to me, was extraordinary the way he was written about...specially by Montreal papers btw.

Crosby's 7 year VsX is one spot ahead of Howie and Sid separates in the 10 year version meaning his scoring was consistent for longer. And he's still better than a PPG player heading into his early 30's.

He had 8 top 3 scoring finishes to Morenz's 5. And that's with Sid losing 2 of his best/prime years to freak injuries that were no fault of his own. Remember 2010-11 he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games. We're not talking 10-15 games here. It's a season that pisses me off personally because it's the most dominant I've seen a player offensively since Mario and it was ruined with very questionable hits to the head. That's an Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay lost. Crosby could have dropped off a cliff the 2nd half of the season (say to a PPG) and still won the Ross and goal scoring titles with relative ease.

Then again in 2012-13 he takes a slap shot to the face by his own guy and it takes the rest of the field an entire month almost to catch and pass him in the scoring race. More hardware lost due to asinine circumstances. This isn't a guy who was out of shape or loafing. He was targeted by other teams with dirty play and had a 1 in a 1000 puck to the jaw happen. And yet he still holds up in the regular season to Morenz. Crosby also never skated with an elite winger like Joliat for any length of time, let alone the bulk of his career as Morenz was fortunate enough to.

Crosby blows Morenz out of the water in AS finishes, even when you give Howie 2 more for seasons I listed below since AS voting only started in 1931.


Scoring Finishes:


Howie Morenz

1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

Sidney Crosby

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6


Also a look at 7 and 10 year VsX

TABLE 1 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)

Wayne Gretzky	155.6
Phil Esposito	130.4
Gordie Howe	125.5
Mario Lemieux	119.8
Bobby Orr	114.8
Jaromir Jagr	114.2
Bobby Hull	108.3
Stan Mikita	107.8
Jean Beliveau	105.7
Guy Lafleur	104.5
Ted Lindsay	104.4
Marcel Dionne	103.3
Sidney Crosby	102.4
Maurice Richard	102.4
Howie Morenz	102.2
Andy Bathgate	101.1
Alex Ovechkin	98.4
Joe Sakic	97.7
Bill Cowley	97.0
Charlie Conacher	96.2
Bill Cook	96.0
Joe Thornton	95.6
Frank Boucher	95.1
Mike Bossy	94.8
Evgeni Malkin	93.7
Bryan Trottier	93.7
Steve Yzerman	93.2
Teemu Selanne	92.7
Martin St. Louis	92.4
Syl Apps Sr	92.4
Sweeney Schriner	91.3
Bobby Clarke	90.4
Max Bentley	90.4
Peter Forsberg	90.3
Nels Stewart	90.3
Adam Oates	90.0
Bernie Geoffrion	89.9
Mark Messier	89.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TABLE 2 - BEST TEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)

Wayne Gretzky	144.7
Gordie Howe	118.1
Phil Esposito	117.6
Mario Lemieux	112.0
Jaromir Jagr	105.9
Stan Mikita	102.5
Bobby Hull	101.8
Jean Beliveau	100.0
Sidney Crosby	99.3
Maurice Richard	97.9
Marcel Dionne	97.5
Ted Lindsay	95.8
Andy Bathgate	95.6
Alex Ovechkin	94.1
Joe Sakic	94.0
Bobby Orr	92.1
Guy Lafleur	91.0
Joe Thornton	90.8
Mike Bossy	89.4
Howie Morenz	88.9
Frank Boucher	88.8
Steve Yzerman	88.8
Teemu Selanne	88.7
Bryan Trottier	87.2
Nels Stewart	87.1
Bill Cowley	86.7
Evgeni Malkin	86.7
Martin St. Louis	86.3
Adam Oates	86.2
Jean Ratelle	85.3
Mark Messier	85.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Mikita and Crosby hold up the best both in 7 and 10 year versions. Morenz looks strong in the 7 year study but drops considerably in the 10 year. Messier lags well behind the other 3.


Hart Trophy Voting:


Morenz:

1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 7,

Crosby:

1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

-Morenz has the most wins with 3, but Crosby probably edges him out when looking at depth of finishes. . This is Crosby>Morenz, especially when you consider Crosby lost nearly 2 years of his prime and a season where he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games (not exactly a small sample size).


AS Finishes:


Morenz*

1, 1, 2

Crosby

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2


-Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby.

Morenz after the age of 29 was finished as an elite type player, at least offensively. A guy like Messier actually had one of his best seasons after 30 (1992) and another Hart caliber year at age 35. Crosby doesn't seem to be slowing down as he is now into his early 30's.


Morenz Playoff Caliber Player is a question mark to me

Post consolidation results:

1927 - 1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's.

1928 - 0 points in 2 games. Out in round 1.

1929 - 0 points in 3 games. Out in round 1.

1930 - He has 1 goal in the 2 game Cup final. 4 players scored more than he did for Montreal.

1931 - He scores 1 lonely goal in 5 (FIVE) games in Cup final. 5 players score more, including Johnny Gagnon with 4 goals and 6 points.

1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

15 points in 35 games after consolidation. And in the 2 years Montreal did win the Cup, Morenz was almost completely shut down. We see far less talented players stepping up.

Other random players totals in same or similar time periods (all post consolidation #'s):

Johnny Gagnon - 24 points in 32 games
Aurele Joliat - 19 in 40
Bill Cook - 24 in 46
Joe Primeau 23 in 38
Charlie Conacher 35 in 49
Harry Oliver 16 in 35


Crosby is utterly dominant in the postseason and on the international stage:

-Crosby's dominance in the postseason might not be held as high as it should be, especially considering his career is nowhere near complete. By age 30 he had done:

-3 Cup wins in 4 tries. Been to 5 Conference finals.

-Crosby is only the 3rd player in NHL history to win back to back Conn Smythes.

-8th all time in playoff points per game

-185 points already puts him in a tie for 10th place with Steve Yzerman.

-63 Career Multi Point games in playoffs (3rd all time) in 160 games.

-Consider, Jari Kurri, playing in the highest scoring era of all time, had 60 MPG's but needed 200 contests to reach that. Mark Messier, 2nd all time, had 77 in 236 games.

2 Olympic Gold medals in 2 tries (2010/2014)
-Scored Golden goal in OT of gold medal game 2010
1 World Championship Gold (2015)
1 World Cup of Hockey Gold (2016)
-MVP and leading scorer
1 World Junior Gold (2005)

-Also named Best Forward at World Championship in 2006

-Youngest Player in history to win a World Championship scoring title (2006)

-Member of Quadruple Gold Club (Gold medeal at World Junior, WC', Olympics, and WCOH)

-Only player in hockey history to captain every team of the quad/triple gold clubs.

-Orr, Gretzky and Crosby are the three players in history to win the Hart Trophy, the Conn Smythe Trophy, and MVP at the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey.

-He is the 6th player in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup three times with two Olympic gold medals. Crosby joins Igor Larionov, Martin Brodeur, Scott Niedermayer, Duncan Keith, and Jonathan Toews as the players who make up that prestigious fraternity


Summery:

The simple reality is that Sid is every bit as impressive as Morenz (i think slightly more so) as a regular season player. Especially when you consider he lost 2 of his prime years to injury that were either cheap hits or freak accidents. His peak scoring is as good. His longevity as a scorer is better. His hardware is every bit as impressive, especially depth of finishes.

But where Crosby really separates is in the postseason. I simply can't see how anyone views Morenz as anything more than an inconsistent playoff performer especially when you look at post consolidation totals. He was routinely shut down in the postseason or saw others step up in his "absence". As I pointed out the 2 Cups that he was a part of in 1930 and 31 he scored 2 goals in 7 games.

In 1930 Morenz scored 0 points in the semi finals and then 1 goal in the 2 game Cup finals being outscored by Albert Ludac, Sylvio Mantha, Pit Lepine and Nick Wasine.

In 1931 Morenz was the leading scorer for Montreal against Boston in the semi's with 4 assists in 5 games.

But in the Cup final? Completely shut down by a much weaker Chicago team scoring 1 goal in 5 games. Johnny Gagnon scored 6 points (4/2), Pit Lepine 4 points, Mantha 3, Wasnie and Joliat with 2 points each. Hainsworth was very impressive giving up only 8 goals in 5 games.

Crosby is this generations best playoff performer. Only Malkin really comes close. I certainly don't think Howie Morenz can lay claim to that title in the 20's and 30's. I don't even know if he was Montreal's best player, at least post consolidation anyway.

Throw in what Sid has done on the international stages and to me there is a clear gap. But I know some won't agree, and that's fine. The numbers, awards and overall resume for 87 are simply better almost entirely across the board.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think he "elevated" his play in the postseason. He has some good runs. He has some bad ones (2001 Pitt is at minimum disappointing). But he didn't really drag Pitt beyond where it would have gone anyway - he doesn't have an equivalent run to Hasek's '99 run, or Bourque's '83, '88, or '89 runs where he drags a team farther than they have any business being.

Obviously doesn't approach Potvin, Plante, Messier, or Lidstrom in this vote in the playoffs. For playoffs he's probably at Ovechkin/Mikita level, which is pretty close to the bottom of this round.

No, he probably doesn't have a Hasek in '99...though, it would have been nice if Jagr had gotten a chance to end Hasek's run in the ECF...because Jagr's finest series is beating New Jersey on one leg in the 1999 ECQF...

2001 was a cinderella run to the ECF with a goalie who had just been called up in Johan Hedberg...they swiped yet another series from Washington in dramatic fashion...then beat a better Buffalo team rallying from 3-2 down. Before finally bowing out to the best team in the league (NJ) in the ECF...

I mean, he's out there playing with Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina trying to run through Hasek, Brodeur, CuJo, Kolzig, etc. ...I'm not sure how much more juice could be squeezed out of those teams really...

In 2001, the top five players in ice time on the team were all forwards (!)...that's crazy in almost any era...the top D logged 19 minutes a game and it's freakin' Darius Kasparaitis. Then Andrew Ference, fine. Not a #2, but whatever, at least he belonged in the league even though he was just 21 at the time...then Jeff Norton, Janne Laukkanen, Hans Jonsson, Ian Moran and Jiri Slegr...we swapped out Norton for Bob Boughner in the playoffs...ya know...to upgrade or whatever...

That's not a who's who on defense...it's a "who's that?" Sick joke. Pens made the playoffs every year from 1997 to 2001, but only started the same goalie twice (old Billy Goat Barrasso in '98 and '99)...otherwise journeymen Ken Wregget, Ron Tugnutt and future journeyman Johan Hedberg manned the nets...

 

[ResilientBeast]

Crosby's 7 year VsX is one spot ahead of Howie and Sid separates in the 10 year version meaning his scoring was consistent for longer. And he's still better than a PPG player heading into his early 30's.

Throw in what Sid has done on the international stages and to me there is a clear gap. But I know some won't agree, and that's fine. The numbers, awards and overall resume for 87 are simply better almost entirely across the board.

I don't think 10 years is a fair comparison metric for a player from 1920-30 to now

International stage doesn't matter when comparing to a player who had no opportunity to play

 

[BenchBrawl]

Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, Eddie Shore, and Nicklas Lidstrom are in a class of their own among defensemen

Based on awards recognition, nobody else (except Orr of course) was all that close to these guys in being considered the best at his position time and time again.

Since the great consolidation of 1926-27:

Most Norris Trophies (or equivalent*):
Bobby Orr 8
Eddie Shore 8*
Doug Harvey 7
Nicklas Lidstrom 7
Raymond Bourque 5
Red Kelly 4
Pierre Pilote 3
Denis Potvin 3
Chris Chelios 3
Paul Coffey 3
Dit Clapper 2*
Bill Quackenbush 2*
Larry Robinson 2
Rod Langway 2
Duncan Keith 2
Erik Karlsson 2

*Retro Norrises according to awards voting: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/36803605/

Most Times 1st Team All Star
*1926-27 and 1927-28 based on unoffical All-Star teams voted by NHL GMs. 1928-29 and 1929-30 estimated based off Hart voting

Raymond Bourque 13
Doug Harvey 10
Nicklas Lidstrom 10
Eddie Shore 9
Bobby Orr 8
Red Kelly 6
King Clancy 5
Pierre Pilote 5
Brad Park 5
Denis Potvin 5
Chris Chelios 5
Paul Coffey 4
Earl Seibert 4
Al MacInnis 4
Erik Karlsson
Ching Johnson 3
Babe Siebert 3
Dit Clapper 3
Butch Bouchard 3
Jack Stewart 3
Bill Quackenbush 3
Bill Gadsby 3
Tim Horton 3
Larry Robinson 3
Mark Howe 3
Scott Niedermayer 3
Zdeno Chara 3

Most Times 1st or 2nd Team All Star

*1926-27 and 1927-28 based on unoffical All-Star teams voted by NHL GMs. 1928-29 and 1929-30 estimated based off Hart voting
Raymond Bourque 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 12
Doug Harvey 11
Eddie Shore 10
Earl Seibert 10
Bobby Orr 9
King Clancy 8
Red Kelly 8
Pierre Pilote 8
Paul Coffey 8
Bill Gadsby 7
Brad Park 7
Denis Potvin 7
Al MacInnis 7
Chris Chelios 7
Zdeno Chara 7
Ching Johnson 6
Tim Horton 6
Borge Salming 6
Larry Robinson 6
Ken Reardon 5
Jack Stewart 5
Bill Quackenbush 5
Scott Stevens 5
Brian Leetch 5

That doesn't really convince me that any of them was better than Denis Potvin.It's basically three different ways of counting good regular seasons, which is a legit argument but not the only way to evaluate them.

If we zoom out, Potvin is basically the ''overall'' best defenseman in the NHL from 74-75 to 83-84, a 10 years window.And there's a good case he peaked the highest.

 

[MXD]

.... @ImporterExporter , FYI, Johnny Gagnon was Morenz' linemate, and by all account, the least accomplished player on his line at just every level (the other player is Aurele Joliat), and also the slowest. Given what we know about Morenz, it's not impossible that he was on full-fledged backcheck duties.

And the carving out of Morenz' hattrick in 1924 hasn't gone unnoticed. I mean... That's no small thing. One thing that also has taken in consideration is that... Well... Nobody was really good for a sustained period in the playoffs in that era. For whatever reason.

 

[solidmotion]

Well Richard making it over Hasek/Bourque/Morenz/Crosby is a travesty, but alas here we are.

One 15 year span (of primes) is grossly overrepresented in the top 9, and one team in that span makes up 1/3rd of the top 9. That boggles my mind how one dynasty claims 3 of the top 9 when no player from equally impressive dynasties as the 70s Habs, 80 Islanders and Oilers, or 60s Leafs have made it in, and only one player has made it in from the 50s Red Wings. I respect Old Time hockey, but this is supposed to be era neutral, while this is turning into "glorify the 50s and early 60s to the detriment of every other era".

probably arbitrary cutoffs like top-10, top-20 skew perceptions a bit... in reality there's a clear top 4 and then a tier of, i don't know, maybe up to 15 players with decent cases for the top 10, a lot of them with decent cases for #5. case in point: hasek probably won't make the top 10 here, but if someone had him as #5 it wouldn't be outlandish.

i think it's hard when modern players are under so much more scrutiny, everybody is hyper-aware of their faults, as well as it being such a different league, 4 playoff rounds instead of 2 = twice as many chances to screw it all up... i mean at a glance, jagr was leading the playoffs in scoring at the point his teams were eliminated in at least 2000 and 2008—his playoff resume vis-a-vis richard's, for instance, probably looks better if there are only two rounds... maybe he ends up a bit higher on a list like this in that case... etc. i mean the difference is small enough that they'll all be in the same broad tier, as i think of it, but the balance tilts towards the slightly inflated 06 resume of achievements...

 

[bobholly39]

I don't think 10 years is a fair comparison metric for a player from 1920-30 to now

International stage doesn't matter when comparing to a player who had no opportunity to play

Bolded - too bad for Morenz and net positive for Crosby. That's how this should be looked at.

I agree on first point. Though tbh i'm not all that crazy about vsx to begin with. I would like it if someone can posts vsx data for ppg, not just total points. Injuries affect that too much.

 

[The Macho King]

No, he probably doesn't have a Hasek in '99...though, it would have been nice if Jagr had gotten a chance to end Hasek's run in the ECF...because Jagr's finest series is beating New Jersey on one leg in the 1999 ECQF...

2001 was a cinderella run to the ECF with a goalie who had just been called up in Johan Hedberg...they swiped yet another series from Washington in dramatic fashion...then beat a better Buffalo team rallying from 3-2 down. Before finally bowing out to the best team in the league (NJ) in the ECF...

I mean, he's out there playing with Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina trying to run through Hasek, Brodeur, CuJo, Kolzig, etc. ...I'm not sure how much more juice could be squeezed out of those teams really...

In 2001, the top five players in ice time on the team were all forwards (!)...that's crazy in almost any era...the top D logged 19 minutes a game and it's freakin' Darius Kasparaitis. Then Andrew Ference, fine. Not a #2, but whatever, at least he belonged in the league even though he was just 21 at the time...then Jeff Norton, Janne Laukkanen, Hans Jonsson, Ian Moran and Jiri Slegr...we swapped out Norton for Bob Boughner in the playoffs...ya know...to upgrade or whatever...

That's not a who's who on defense...it's a "who's that?" Sick joke. Pens made the playoffs every year from 1997 to 2001, but only started the same goalie twice (old Billy Goat Barrasso in '98 and '99)...otherwise journeymen Ken Wregget, Ron Tugnutt and future journeyman Johan Hedberg manned the nets...

I think this is all good information - but we're still comparing him to players that have legendary runs (for the most part). Jagr doesn't have a single run that you can hang that on.

The Pens made the playoffs a lot, largely based on him (although 16 teams in a 28-30 team league... making the playoffs with a top 20ish player of all time should be the expectation no matter what team you have around you). I'll come out with my "tiers" ranking on my five criteria later, but we're still talking some legendary playoff performers here - Potvin probably the most notable of this bunch, but also Crosby, Bourque, Lidstrom, etc., and even the players that aren't known as great playoff performers have a few runs to rely on (Hasek). Jagr doesn't seem to stand out there in relation to his peers in this round.

But this vote is kind of boring to me. Most of the players are pretty modern, and the ones that aren't are all so well tread that I can't see a lot of movement in how I rank the players *right now*. I will say - Jagr (and Potvin) probably have the greatest "riser" potential because there are some kind of... fuzzy issues on the side that might make them stand out.

Like - I really want a Potvin v. Shore discussion, because I'm still not super convinced that Shore should be where we have him.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Bolded - too bad for Morenz and net positive for Crosby. That's how this should be looked at.

I agree on first point. Though tbh i'm not all that crazy about vsx to begin with. I would like it if someone can posts vsx data for ppg, not just total points. Injuries affect that too much.

That does exist, however I'm not a fan of per game based metrics. Injuries affect how we view a player and their legacy and should be accounted for.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

-Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby and Mikita.

Can you fix this part? I clearly provided sources (last week, reposted this week) that Morenz picks up at least 3 All-Star nods before they were official in 1930.

As for the playoffs, you're using modern standards on a 1920s/30s player when playoff scoring was low. EVERY player* in that era was up and down in the playoffs - the playoffs were very short and extremely low scoring in general. Huge drop in scoring from the regular season to the playoffs back then.

*Small exceptions - Frank Boucher/Marty Barry were consistently good, Nels Stewart after his rookie year was consistently bad.

Basically, Morenz led the playoffs in goals scored twice. For Montreal's 3 Cups, Morenz led them in goals once and assists another time. And yes, he was shut out in the playoffs a few times. Such and up and down resume is typical in the era, and is clearly (IMO) better than what Eddie Shore did.

I'm not making Morenz out to be a playoff god, but compared to what other star players did during his era, he's middle of the road among candidates this round.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I grew up watching Jagr, saw him play A LOT being a Pens fan.

He was routinely a passenger to Mario and never really carried a team on his back outside of a game here or a few series over his career. I'm sorry but he's a guy I'll put behind Ovechkin and most others on this list because he was a 1 way player who never really MADE Pittsburgh or others better as a TEAM. At least Ovechkin (also being a 1 way player) can lay claim to greatest goal scorer ever (I have him 2nd) and finally got his career defining playoff run and Cup, something Jagr never did.

He would have made for an amazing fantasy hockey player and was breathtaking to watch as an offensive weapon but he loafed, was widely rumored around Pittsburgh to be a real prick in the locker room,off the ice.

His scoring numbers are quite impressive, no doubt but I see him as an elite compiler outside of a few peak seasons. And given his lack of effort in 2/3 of the zones I won't budge much on him. Saw him way to much and know all the numbers. He's a guy who did a lot for himself but rarely made his teams that much better IMO. Never once led the playoffs in goals, assists or points. Not one damn time. Never won a Cup beyond his first 2 seasons.

He's near the bottom of my list. Convince me otherwise!

 

[ImporterExporter]

.... @ImporterExporter , FYI, Johnny Gagnon was Morenz' linemate, and by all account, the least accomplished player on his line at just every level (the other player is Aurele Joliat), and also the slowest. Given what we know about Morenz, it's not impossible that he was on full-fledged backcheck duties.

And the carving out of Morenz' hattrick in 1924 hasn't gone unnoticed.

Agreed on all accounts sir.

But I simply don't hold pre consolidation playoff feats in the same light as modern era. I'm not saying I have a wide gap but there is a gap for various reasons. Smaller sample sizes (games played), multiple differences in rules for the leagues, namely. Frank Nighbor was a MUCH more impressive pre-consolidation playoff performer for example.

And Morenz may have well been asked to play a more defensive game with Gagnon, but unless there is evidence it's just a hypothetical (a decent one i admit).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And Morenz may have well been asked to play a more defensive game with Gagnon, but unless there is evidence it's just a hypothetical (a decent one i admit).

The only evidence I know of is that Morenz and Joliat were highly praised for their two-way games all over, whereas if I saw a quote about Gagnon backchecking, it would be the first (not saying he never backchecked, just that I've never seen it written in a profile about Gagnon).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Can you fix this part? I clearly provided sources (last week, reposted this week) that Morenz picks up at least 3 All-Star nods before they were official in 1930.

As for the playoffs, you're using modern standards on a 1920s/30s player when playoff scoring was low. EVERY player* in that era was up and down in the playoffs - the playoffs were very short and extremely low scoring in general. Huge drop in scoring from the regular season to the playoffs back then.

*Small exceptions - Frank Boucher/Marty Barry were consistently good, Nels Stewart after his rookie year was consistently bad.

Basically, Morenz led the playoffs in goals scored twice. For Montreal's 3 Cups, Morenz led them in goals once and assists another time. And yes, he was shut out in the playoffs a few times. Such and up and down resume is typical in the era, and is clearly (IMO) better than what Eddie Shore did.

I'm not making Morenz out to be a playoff god, but compared to what other star players did during his era, he's middle of the road among candidates this round.

Fair enough. I was MIA for all of last week due to losing my job (side effects of that impacting my time and emotions) so I missed your AS accounts. I was under the impression from the ATD that he lost out on 2, but I seem to have found your post and it makes sense.

Completely agree on Eddie Shore being very weak comparatively speaking.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

So on Jagr -
Five Art Ross trophies is impressive, but it's in a kind of crappy era for forward competition.

Hmmm... tough crowd.

Here follows the "kind of crappy" competition that Jagr faced in his Ross nods.
#1: Peak Lindros, Zhamnov (annus mirabilis, granted) & Sakic. We'll be talking about Joe before Christmas.
#2: Prime Forsberg (we'll be taking about him before this project's over), Bure, and twilight Gretzky
#3: Prime Selänne (be discussing him later, too), Peak Kariya, Prime Forsberg & Sakic
#4 Bure, Recchi, Peak Kariya & Prime Selänne
#5 Sakic- others also ran... but 3 points ahead of Sakic on a loaded Colorado championship team is no small feat.

So- eight names mentioned above, seven Hall-of-Famers- and several of whom I fully expect we'll be discussing later in this project.

I won't strenuously object to considering Hašek over Jagr, really... but Jagr's comparisons to Crosby still look really favorable for Jagr, from where I sit.

 

[bobholly39]

I grew up watching Jagr, saw him play A LOT being a Pens fan.

He was routinely a passenger to Mario and never really carried a team on his back outside of a game here or a few series over his career. I'm sorry but he's a guy I'll put behind Ovechkin and most others on this list because he was a 1 way player who never really MADE Pittsburgh or others better as a TEAM. At least Ovechkin (also being a 1 way player) can lay claim to greatest goal scorer ever (I have him 2nd) and finally got his career defining playoff run and Cup, something Jagr never did.

He would have made for an amazing fantasy hockey player and was breathtaking to watch as an offensive weapon but he loafed, was widely rumored around Pittsburgh to be a real prick in the locker room,off the ice.

His scoring numbers are quite impressive, no doubt but I see him as an elite compiler outside of a few peak seasons. And given his lack of effort in 2/3 of the zones I won't budge much on him. Saw him way to much and know all the numbers. He's a guy who did a lot for himself but rarely made his teams that much better IMO. Never once led the playoffs in goals, assists or points. Not one damn time. Never won a Cup beyond his first 2 seasons.

He's near the bottom of my list. Convince me otherwise!

Compiler? I mean sure - you can set your standards anywhere you want of course. But if Jagr's offense is that of a compiler - so is the offense of every single hockey player in the history of the sport outside of maybe.....3-5 guys?

Lemieux and Gretzky went top 4 and also didn't put much of an effort in 2/3 zones (maybe he's even worst than other 2 - but point is one dimensional forwards can still go high if their 1 dimension is impressive enough - and his offense sure is impressive).

As for playoffs. No true signature run, nope. To each their own in how they weight that. He's generally produced very well and consistently in the playoffs offensively, but hockey is a team game and you can't win without a good team and without the rest of the team contributing too. He's still 5th all-time in playoff scoring (1st outside of Edmonton). You can probably label him more of a compiler in the playoffs.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Jagr over Sid only makes sense if you're just going to geek out on regular season scoring finishes and VsX and ignore the fact that Sid actually is more impressive in everything other than scoring (and he's not THAT far behind Jagr anyway).

Postseason and international gap between Crosby and Jagr is massive.

 

[MXD]

Agreed on all accounts sir.

But I simply don't hold pre consolidation playoff feats in the same light as modern era. I'm not saying I have a wide gap but there is a gap for various reasons. Smaller sample sizes (games played), multiple differences in rules for the leagues, namely. Frank Nighbor was a MUCH more impressive pre-consolidation playoff performer for example.

And Morenz may have well been asked to play a more defensive game with Gagnon, but unless there is evidence it's just a hypothetical (a decent one i admit).

Sorry if the version of the post you quoted sounds more "aggressive" than it should. I tend to edit on the fly.

And I don't quite give them the same credit to the pre-consolidation playoffs. It's just that I mostly see playoffs results as "capacity to play well in the clutch", and scoring a hattrick and both GWG during the 1924 SCF; along with the lone goal (in a 1-0 win) and two goals an assist (in a 4-2 win) against a team that did MUCH better in the regular season (for the NHL finals) pretty much shows he could play well in clutch situations.

 

[K Fleur]

Jagr’s playoff resume is unimpressive for a player with as many Art Ross trophies as he has.

Still though Jagr is not the worst playoff performer up for vote this round..maybe not even bottom 3.