Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

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Sentinel

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There is zero good arguments for Lidstrom over Bourque. Zero. Peak = Bourque. Prime = Bourque. Longevity = Bourque. Playoffs = Lidstrom but not by a ton (and considering quality of teams that makes up the gap for me). Offense = Bourque by a mile. Defense = Tie. Impact = Bourque.

Lidstrom is a tier below Bourque. Definitely shouldn't be top 5 in this vote.
I can only quote myself. Only in a very perverted world seven Norrises are less than five, four Cups (including captaincy as a first ever European) are less than one, one Conn Smythe is less than zero, and not missing a single playoff in his entire career is less than, well, missing a playoff. Defensively it's not a tie: Lidstrom was better.

For shots and giggles. Lidstrom's defining international moment: a goal in the 06 OG Finals. Bourque's defining international moment: a blown penalty shot in the 98 OG.

So vote as you will, and I vote as I will.
 

The Macho King

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I absolutely think if Morenz hadn't played in Montreal he wouldn't have near the folk lore surrounding him. Fact of the matter he never really dominated the league at a level commensurate with the kind of outlandish things you see written about him, mainly from Montreal papers. One HAS to consider the bias of that time period and the fact that the hockey world was generally centered around Montreal and most of the most fanatical opinions came from that epicenter and are far to often treated as gospel by the average onlooker.

I'm very high on other Habitants across hockey history. But Morenz doesn't add up when you look at the numbers relative to the league and other superstars across the eras, IMHO. He was the best offensive player in the league a handful of times (his peak was pre consolidation hockey which isn't quite the same league as post), but there were absolutely better 2 way F's (Boucher and Nighbor come to mind immediately), defensive F's, and certainly a few that were clearly superior as postseason players go and his postseason career was uneven at best with really only 1 signature run, pre-consolidation btw. I can't put him above players like Bourque, Crosby, Hasek for starters. Not a chance. He's not in the back end this round but he's not a top 3-4 player for me either.
I'm in a state where I want to give due deference to old time hockey, but I don't want undeserving players this high on the list. Over the past ~6 months the Nighbor arguments have really convinced me that he's an underappreciated player. Considering they're contemporaries, and Nighbor's significant defensive advantage, it's tough comparing them. I want to talk about Nighbor soon, because him and Morenz are kind of that "one way player v. two-way player" debate (trying to think of a more modern comparison - maybe Lafleur v. Clarke?). BUT based on the players up for voting, I do think Morenz's resume compares favorably to guys like Jagr and Ovechkin, and I have to vote based on where they show up rather than wishing they were put in a different group.
 
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bobholly39

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Hasek is a clear #1 here and is way overdue.
Followed, in rapid succession, by Crosby, Shore, Ovechkin, Jagr, and Lidstrom. Morenz further down, Bourque is further yet, and I can't even see Potvin.

Makarov should be here.

Why Lidstrom over Bourque? I saw your post earlier about Norris trophies (and 1 smythe) in Lidstrom's favor. I think that's too simple an answer.

Bourque has a retro Hart in 1987 finishing clear 2nd to Gretzky (retro bc we often discount Gretzky/Lemieux in those counts). He also has another 2nd place vs Messier in 1990 (super close, flip a coin). I'd argue competition for hart was stronger in most of Bourque's career than Lidstrom, and Bourque is ahead in that metric. I think that offsets the 7-5 Norris ratio.

Bourque also generally had steeper competition for Norris than Lidstrom, and although he has less wins i'm pretty sure he has more high finishes than Lidstrom. Some of this was posted earlier.

Is it playoffs that have you rank Lidstrom ahead of Bourque? I could get behind that if you value playoffs a lot - Lidstrom had more opportunity and has a better resume there, no question. But if there's another reason/arguments i'd love to hear your case.
 

quoipourquoi

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We’re not, like, comparing the 1999 Dallas Stars and 2003-04 Tampa Bay Lightning to the Jagr Penguins are we? They had a shot in 1997-98 but lost a series where Jagr had 9 points in 6. After that, they just didn’t have the goaltending to realistically make a run.
 

MXD

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Morenz didn't dominate the league to the level commensurate to the amount of praise he's getting, except when he put up the best offence RS season from a Non Top-4 player. Or when he does things like scoring all the GWG goals for the NHL Finals and the Stanley Cup Final during the SAME playoffs.

And Morenz a 1-way forward? Please.

There are issues with Morenz (the very obvious one starts by "L" and ends with "ongevity"; we can't quite see longevity THEN vs. longevity NOW in a one-for-one way, but there are contemporaries with better longevity than him), but lack of domination and one-way play aren't one of them.
 

daver

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You're being unjustly harsh against Ovechkin. There's no way a Rocket winning season shouldn't be considered elite. If I had to count "elite" seasons I'd go:

Jagr:

94-95
95-96
97-98
98-99
99-00
2000-2001
2005-2006

That's 7

Ovechkin:

2007-2008
2008-2009
2009-2010
2012-2013
2013-2014 (-35 looks bad - but 51 goal + rocket is still elite)
2014-2015
2017-2018

Also 7.

You can probably add 96-97 to Jagr if you want too. I didn't split it into tiers because it's not that easy to do so tbh - but if you want to give it a try go for it. I just think those are the seasons worthy of consideration. At first glance I tend to agree that Jagr comes out ahead.

The reason for trying to tier is to separate seasons that are clearly on a different level than others.

IMO, OV in 13/14, 16/17 (you missed this one) and 17/18 are not close at all to any of Jagr's eight best seasons. OV wins the best 3rd tier season argument.
 

bobholly39

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I can only quote myself. Only in a very perverted world seven Norrises are less than five, four Cups (including captaincy as a first ever European) are less than one, one Conn Smythe is less than zero, and not missing a single playoff in his entire career is less than, well, missing a playoff. Defensively it's not a tie: Lidstrom was better.

For shots and giggles. Lidstrom's defining international moment: a goal in the 06 OG Finals. Bourque's defining international moment: a blown penalty shot in the 98 OG.

So vote as you will, and I vote as I will.

Cups? Come on you've posted many times so far about team success vs individual success in past few rounds, it can't be as easy as that. I mean give Lidstrom extra props for playoffs and cups sure - but you still gotta go look past cup counting. Being captain when winning a cup counts - being first Europeen captain i think is more of a cool achievement than anything to differentiate by.

Also - I wish the "never missing the playoffs his entire career" , or almost would be discussed more in this project. I agree it's commendable for Lidstrom, Crosby (once only in rookie year only)....but also Bourque? Bourque never missed and has more seasons than Lidstrom. Unless i missed a year - i don't think he ever missed either. Again though - making or missing playoffs is more a team accomplishment than individual accomplishment.

Bourque has a decent international resume. He's a defenseman - holding a missed penalty shot against him with too much importance is a bit much. He had strong performances prior to that.
 

Hockey Outsider

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I realize we're getting perilously close to beating-a-dead-horse territory on Bourque vs Lidstrom, but since it was specifically requested, here's a post from 2014:

Here's an update of an old post that I made:

Bourque was on the ice for 2,144 GA in 1,612 games.
Lidstrom was on the ice for 1,718 GA in 1,564 games.

However, when I compared their offense, I adjusted Bourque's stats because it was easier to score in his era. To be fair, we need to adjust Bourque's stats again because it was easier to be on the ice for a goal against. (If you disagree with this, you're basically asking me to adjust Bourque's offense down without making a corresponding adjustment to his defense - in other words, you're asking me to have a double standard to make Bourque's numbers look worse than they actually are).

The NHL averaged 6.86 goals per game during Bourque career, and 5.78 during Lidstrom's. (This is a simple average for each year - not weighted by the number of games they played - both were fairly healthy so if we do a games-weighted average, the results shouldn't be materially different - if someone wants to quantify this, go for it). The league was 18.7% higher scoring on average. Bourque was on the ice for 2,144 / 1.187 = 1,806 adjusted goals against.

Bourque was on the ice for 1,806 goals against in 1,612 games = 1.12
Lidstrom was on the ice for 1,560 GA in 1,412 games = 1.10

There you go. By this metric Lidstrom is about 2% better defensively that Bourque. He was on the ice for about 2% fewer goals per game, after taking into account the fact that Lidstrom played in a lower scoring era (which helps his defensive numbers).

Going into further detail, they're exactly the same in terms of even-strength goals against: both were on the ice for 0.76 GPG. In terms of non-ES goals (which would mostly be goals allowed while on the penalty kill, but also goals allowed while their teams are on the powerplay), Bourque was on the ice for 0.36 GPG, and Lidstrom 0.34 GPG.

This suggests they're close, but there are other factors to consider:

- This doesn`t differentiate between "shutting down opponents when they're already in the defensive zone" and "keeping the the puck out of the defensive zone altogether". Although the end results are similar, I suspect that Lidstrom was better at containing opponents once they're already in the team's zone, while Bourque was better at ensuring that the puck was at the other end of the rink. (This is a personal opinion though and I don`t have any data to support it).
- On average, Lidstrom played on better teams than Bourque. This would help him achieve better results, measured by goals against.
- Lidstrom missed the 2005 season due to the lockout. I'm not sure if that would help or hurt him in this analysis (since this is an "averaging" statistic rather than an "accumulation" statistic).
- This analysis looks at the data on a per-game basis. Like GAA for goalies, you really should look at goals against on a per-minute basis, rather than per-game. This adjustment would favour Bourque, since he played more minutes per game. We only have official ice-time data for the tail end of Bourque's career (ages 38 to 40), and he played between 26 and 29.5 minutes per game during that span. We have ice time data for most of Lidstrom`s prime (ages 28 through 37) - during which time he averaged 26.5 to 29.5 minutes per game. After his prime (ages 38 to 41), he avearged 23.5 to 25.5 minutes per game. We know that Bourque, at the tail end of his career, played significantrly more than Lidstrom did at the tail end of his career, and his ice time was actually quite comparable to Lidstrom's prime. Making the reasonable assumption that Bourque played more during his prime than from ages 38 to 40, this suggests that he received more average ice time over the course of his career and, for that reason, Bourque`s results are better than this analysis suggests (how much better is open for debate).

Based on the second and fourth points, I suspect that Bourque was probably a bit better than Lidstrom at keeping the puck out of their respective teams' nets. Even if the qualitative factors are ignored, they're virtually even.
 

Sentinel

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Why Lidstrom over Bourque? I saw your post earlier about Norris trophies (and 1 smythe) in Lidstrom's favor. I think that's too simple an answer.

Bourque has a retro Hart in 1987 finishing clear 2nd to Gretzky (retro bc we often discount Gretzky/Lemieux in those counts). He also has another 2nd place vs Messier in 1990 (super close, flip a coin). I'd argue competition for hart was stronger in most of Bourque's career than Lidstrom, and Bourque is ahead in that metric. I think that offsets the 7-5 Norris ratio.

Bourque also generally had steeper competition for Norris than Lidstrom, and although he has less wins i'm pretty sure he has more high finishes than Lidstrom. Some of this was posted earlier.

Is it playoffs that have you rank Lidstrom ahead of Bourque? I could get behind that if you value playoffs a lot - Lidstrom had more opportunity and has a better resume there, no question. But if there's another reason/arguments i'd love to hear your case.
I do value playoffs (and a few times Bourque really didn't do as well as he should have) but I also responded to these things before. Lidstrom's competition in sheer numbers of excellent players was better than, say, Harvey's, and not that much worse than Bourque's. In my Top 120 I have four players that were Lidstrom's direct competition, and that doesn't even include MacInnis, Leetch, Chara, and Weber. Bourque had five. At least Lidstrom didn't lose to Carlyle and Wilson. He lost to Blake, but, you know... Canadians...
 

The Macho King

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Cups? Come on you've posted many times so far about team success vs individual success in past few rounds, it can't be as easy as that. I mean give Lidstrom extra props for playoffs and cups sure - but you still gotta go look past cup counting. Being captain when winning a cup counts - being first Europeen captain i think is more of a cool achievement than anything to differentiate by.

Also - I wish the "never missing the playoffs his entire career" , or almost would be discussed more in this project. I agree it's commendable for Lidstrom, Crosby (once only in rookie year only)....but also Bourque? Bourque never missed and has more seasons than Lidstrom. Unless i missed a year - i don't think he ever missed either. Again though - making or missing playoffs is more a team accomplishment than individual accomplishment.

Bourque has a decent international resume. He's a defenseman - holding a missed penalty shot against him with too much importance is a bit much. He had strong performances prior to that.
Bourque missed once ('97). He missed 20 games that season.

Edit: Should probably point out that he *would* have missed his last season in Boston too except he was traded.
 
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MXD

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I do value playoffs (and a few times Bourque really didn't do as well as he should have) but I also responded to these things before. Lidstrom's competition in sheer numbers of excellent players was better than, say, Harvey's, and not that much worse than Bourque's. In my Top 120 I have four players that were Lidstrom's direct competition, and that doesn't even include MacInnis, Leetch, Chara, and Weber. Bourque had five. At least Lidstrom didn't lose to Carlyle and Wilson. He lost to Blake, but, you know... Canadians...

C'mon man....
Your post was making perfect sense. No need to add the bold/underlined.
 

Sentinel

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Cups? Come on you've posted many times so far about team success vs individual success in past few rounds, it can't be as easy as that. I mean give Lidstrom extra props for playoffs and cups sure - but you still gotta go look past cup counting. Being captain when winning a cup counts - being first Europeen captain i think is more of a cool achievement than anything to differentiate by.

Also - I wish the "never missing the playoffs his entire career" , or almost would be discussed more in this project. I agree it's commendable for Lidstrom, Crosby (once only in rookie year only)....but also Bourque? Bourque never missed and has more seasons than Lidstrom. Unless i missed a year - i don't think he ever missed either. Again though - making or missing playoffs is more a team accomplishment than individual accomplishment.

Bourque has a decent international resume. He's a defenseman - holding a missed penalty shot against him with too much importance is a bit much. He had strong performances prior to that.
Unless I am much mistaken, Bruins missed playoffs in 1997.
 

86Habs

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Cups? Come on you've posted many times so far about team success vs individual success in past few rounds, it can't be as easy as that. I mean give Lidstrom extra props for playoffs and cups sure - but you still gotta go look past cup counting. Being captain when winning a cup counts - being first Europeen captain i think is more of a cool achievement than anything to differentiate by.

Also - I wish the "never missing the playoffs his entire career" , or almost would be discussed more in this project. I agree it's commendable for Lidstrom, Crosby (once only in rookie year only)....but also Bourque? Bourque never missed and has more seasons than Lidstrom. Unless i missed a year - i don't think he ever missed either. Again though - making or missing playoffs is more a team accomplishment than individual accomplishment.

Bourque has a decent international resume. He's a defenseman - holding a missed penalty shot against him with too much importance is a bit much. He had strong performances prior to that.

I always find it ironic how he never uses the Cup or Conn Smythe counting metric during the Roy vs. Hasek discussions.

As someone who is following the discussion and enjoying and learning from the arguments presented by the majority of the posters, I can say that this particular poster is so biased that he has absolutely no credibility - at least from my perspective.
 

bobholly39

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The reason for trying to tier is to separate seasons that are clearly on a different level than others.

IMO, OV in 13/14, 16/17 (you missed this one) and 17/18 are not close at all to any of Jagr's eight best seasons. OV wins the best 3rd tier season argument.

There was discussion a few pages back (not sure if you were initially replying to that or not - but i believe you may have been) about how extra "ok" seasons are less a factor in longevity than elite seasons. So pretty much - counting Jagr's seasons post-age 40 aren't super relevant. Impressive for age, and adds to overall longevity, but concentrating more on the elite seasons is worth more (I agree with this idea).

I think it's important to highlight all of the elite seasons. And you left some out for Ovi (I'd put 2015-16 for Ov instead of 16-17, but you're right i missed one).

I think if you want to continue this exercise, there would be merit in looking at all of these elite seasons and splitting them into tiers. You can do 2 or 3 tiers if you want. Id be curious to see what results you come out with if you include all of the more relevant seasons into tiers, to see the full picture.
 

MXD

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I absolutely think if Morenz hadn't played in Montreal he wouldn't have near the folk lore surrounding him. Fact of the matter he never really dominated the league at a level commensurate with the kind of outlandish things you see written about him, mainly from Montreal papers. One HAS to consider the bias of that time period and the fact that the hockey world was generally centered around Montreal and most of the most fanatical opinions came from that epicenter and are far to often treated as gospel by the average onlooker.
.

... I'd like to see evidence of these outlandish things...
 

ResilientBeast

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Cups? Come on you've posted many times so far about team success vs individual success in past few rounds, it can't be as easy as that. I mean give Lidstrom extra props for playoffs and cups sure - but you still gotta go look past cup counting. Being captain when winning a cup counts - being first Europeen captain i think is more of a cool achievement than anything to differentiate by.

Also - I wish the "never missing the playoffs his entire career" , or almost would be discussed more in this project. I agree it's commendable for Lidstrom, Crosby (once only in rookie year only)....but also Bourque? Bourque never missed and has more seasons than Lidstrom. Unless i missed a year - i don't think he ever missed either. Again though - making or missing playoffs is more a team accomplishment than individual accomplishment.

Bourque has a decent international resume. He's a defenseman - holding a missed penalty shot against him with too much importance is a bit much. He had strong performances prior to that.

Looks like he missed at age 36 (1996-97)
 

Tuna Tatarrrrrr

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Hasek is a clear #1 here and is way overdue.
Followed, in rapid succession, by Crosby, Shore, Ovechkin, Jagr, and Lidstrom. Morenz further down, Bourque is further yet, and I can't even see Potvin.

Makarov should be here.
LOL considering Bourque and Lidstrom were so close to each other, this is hilarious. :laugh:

Bourque =< Lidstrom defensively
Bourque >> Lidstrom offensively

But yeah keep trying to overrate Lidstrom and underrate Bourque.
 
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bobholly39

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Bourque missed once ('97). He missed 20 games that season.

Unless I am much mistaken, Bruins missed playoffs in 1997.

Somehow I missed that. I was counting and i did 3x to make sure and i somehow missed it - go figure.

I think there's worth in looking at playoff appearances (example if someone wanted to hold this against Mario Lemieux in round 1 how often he missed early on - fair enough). But I think missing once in 21 years vs 0x in 20 years is about the same....maybe if Bourque had missed 4-5x it can mean something, I think just once isn't really a big deal. 1997 is a pretty poor season for Bourque overall (and yes i notice the 20 games missed).
 

Nick Hansen

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Very little discussion on Mikita so far. Looking at his career numbers and awards, it looks pretty incredible. What's the feeling on him? The thing I could see with him is that he seemed to have won his Art Ross trophies when there was a slight lull in the league for a few years. All the old stars of yesterday was getting old and the influx of new talent seems to have lacked a bit. Though he did beat Bobby freakin' Hull after all.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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(his peak was pre consolidation hockey which isn't quite the same league as post),

MXD rightfully criticized your claim that Morenz was a "1 way player," which flies in thr face of the available evidence.

But I'm going to focus on this - you really need to check your dates again.

The last western competitor to the NHL folded in 1926. That means that starting in 1926-27, all the best players were in the NHL. Howie Morenz's prime was from 1924-25 to 1932-33, and yes, his longevity wasn't the best. But only 2 of his 9 relavant seasons were pre-consolidation.

And his 1927-28, the best season by any player available this round, was against all the continent's talent in the NHL.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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@quoipourquoi As far as process this round, are we ranking all 12 or just 1-10?

Hope just 1-10. Gives individual posters less power to tank a player they have a hate-on for (this matters more in larger groups of players)

We've tried it 3 different ways before (ranking top 5, ranking top 10, and ranking everyone), and ranking top 10 works out the best.
 

DannyGallivan

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Very little discussion on Mikita so far. Looking at his career numbers and awards, it looks pretty incredible. What's the feeling on him? The thing I could see with him is that he seemed to have won his Art Ross trophies when there was a slight lull in the league for a few years. All the old stars of yesterday was getting old and the influx of new talent seems to have lacked a bit. Though he did beat Bobby freakin' Hull after all.
I keep flip-flopping between him and Potvin for 8th and 9th in this particular round. I had him 18th overall in my original 120 (one back of Phil Esposito at 17th) and that seems to make sense to me even now.
 
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