Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[Dennis Bonvie]

Maybe in hitting, but I don't really recall Stevens being a feared fighter or anything like that (at least after his first few seasons in the league).

I don't know - I'm probably stupid, but I see Robinson as just... the scariest mother ****er out there.

According to hockeyfights.com, Robinson had 24 NHL fights. Potvin had 16. Bourque had 17. Lidstrom had zero. Scott Stevens had 111!

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not so much "poor" maybe, but not well-refined...not reliable...he also was backed by HOF caliber goaltending...

We're talking upthread about guys that could check off multiple boxes (because we're still in the territory where we should be focused on guys who are more complete players, despite our inclusion of Richard)..."Potvin can do all these things...Bourque could do most of this, some of that...Lidstrom was not this one, but all these..." etc.

Well Shore only played a physical defense. So he was a big athlete that hit people a lot...and that worked plenty in his era...but he wasn't well rounded, he had one setting...that's not something that I value right now...

Maybe of some note, when the seemingly real defensive ace of the team departs (Lionel Hitchman), the voters shower Thompson with praise...going 2nd Team, 1st Team, 4th Hart (top Bruin, top G), 1st Team in his only four years in Boston without Hitchman...

Then in 1939 Brimsek steps in and is 1st Team. Then Shore plays a quarter of the year in New York in 1940 and Earl Robertson is the only goalie to get Hart votes.

The voters seemed to suddenly shower praise on the goalies behind Shore...not that Shore didn't get his own accolades, but goalies were maybe more heroic when he was playing most of the games without a lot of insulation...also makes sense with his playoff failures...also makes sense with his relative lack of love (compared to the MVPs) in retrospect by contemporaries...

 

[The Macho King]

Exactly. Nice post.

Should also note that the big rap against Shore here has been the allegation that he was not good defensively. However, in 3 of the 4 seasons Shore won the Hart, the Bruins allowed the least goals in the league. Considering Shore played most of the game, its hard to imagine him being poor defensively but the Bruins being that good defensively.

I think it's an overstatement saying anyone was considering him poor defensively. Last vote he was compared to Bourque and Harvey, and this one you add Potvin and Lidstrom. So I think it's more of a relative statement rather than a qualitative one.

So one thing that might help me with Shore - how would you rate his D competition? Outside of say Seibert, who was his competition he was getting these 1 AST/Hart trophies against? Clapper is tough because his position moved around (and was also a teammate). Who else? Not being sarcastic, I'm asking you (and others) to educate me.

 

[seventieslord]

I think it's an overstatement saying anyone was considering him poor defensively. Last vote he was compared to Bourque and Harvey, and this one you add Potvin and Lidstrom. So I think it's more of a relative statement rather than a qualitative one.

So one thing that might help me with Shore - how would you rate his D competition? Outside of say Seibert, who was his competition he was getting these 1 AST/Hart trophies against? Clapper is tough because his position moved around (and was also a teammate). Who else? Not being sarcastic, I'm asking you (and others) to educate me.

King Clancy...

 

[MXD]

Babe Seibert for a few seasons, too. Won the Hart the year Shore had an off year. Before that, was Shore's partner and deemed not as good.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Babe Seibert for a few seasons, too. Won the Hart the year Shore had an off year. Before that, was Shore's partner and deemed not as good.

The year before his Hart, Siebert was Shore's partner and they were both first team all-stars.

 

[MXD]

The year before his Hart, Siebert was Shore's partner and they were both first team all-stars.

That's indeed what I wrote?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think it's an overstatement saying anyone was considering him poor defensively. Last vote he was compared to Bourque and Harvey, and this one you add Potvin and Lidstrom. So I think it's more of a relative statement rather than a qualitative one.

So one thing that might help me with Shore - how would you rate his D competition? Outside of say Seibert, who was his competition he was getting these 1 AST/Hart trophies against? Clapper is tough because his position moved around (and was also a teammate). Who else? Not being sarcastic, I'm asking you (and others) to educate me.

Well, the Hart Trophies were against everyone, not just defenseman. So there was Morenz, for one.

Lionel Conacher, Ching Johnson, Al Coulter, Ebbie Goodfellow.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's indeed what I wrote?

Correct.

But you also said he wasn't deemed as good as Shore. Babe actually outscore Shore that year and both being first team all-stars would suggest they were on equal terms at that point.

 

[MXD]

Correct.

But you also said he wasn't deemed as good as Shore. Babe actually outscore Shore that year and both being first team all-stars would suggest they were on equal terms at that point.

... Shore won the Hart that season. The AST's were according to "sides", and Shore, as I recall, won his "side" more decisively (and against somewhat better competition too, as I recall).

Somebody can confirm?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Correct.

But you also said he wasn't deemed as good as Shore. Babe actually outscore Shore that year and both being first team all-stars would suggest they were on equal terms at that point.

Era of distinct RD and LD voting for defencemen.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Just to put Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin up for a more generalized overview for those wondering:

Norris Finishes: (1st through 5th place finishes)

Bourque
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

Lidstrom
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

Potvin
1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

-Bourque's top end and consistency is absolutely amazing. Especially considering he played during the same period as Potvin and Lidstrom as well as prime Chelios, Coffey, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens, Langway, Howe, Murphy, etc, etc.

Hart Record: (1st through 10th)

Bourque
2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8

Lidstrom
4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Potvin
2, 4, 7, 7, 9, 9, 9,

-Bourque edges Potvin especially considering he played in the same era as prime Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidstrom lags but the closer we get to present day the less respect Dmen seem to have gotten in Hart voting.

AS Finishes:

Bourque
1st team = 13 times
2nd team = 6 times

Lidstrom
1st team = 10 times
2nd team = 2 times

Potvin
1st team = 5 times
2nd team = 2 times

-Bourque dominates again. Potvin well behind the other 2.

Post Consolidation VsX:

Bourque = 75.3
Potvin = 74.3
Lidstrom = 69.7

-No real gap here. All were very good offensive players from the back end but Ray and Denis a bit more so than Lidstrom.

Scoring Finishes Among D (1st through 5th place)

Bourque:
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5,

Lidstrom
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5

Potvin
1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5

-Lidstrom's top end looks the best, but he also didn't face the same prime offensive Dmen as Bourque did. Ray's consistency here is just another feather in his cap.

Adjusted +/-

Bourque = +586 (1st place all time regardless of position)
Lidstrom = +253
Potvin = +253

-Just another metric RB dominates.

Power Play Usage:

Bourque = 88%
Potvin = 87%
Lidstrom = 71%

Penalty Kill Usage:

Bourque = 58%
Potvin = 53%
Lidstrom = 53%

-Bourque was counted on more than the other from a special teams standpoint, a good bit more than Lidstrom.

 

[ted2019]

One more point about Lidstrom, which I think Canadiens1958 has actually raised in the past. Although he sure wasn't chippy, and may not have thrown a single body check in his career, he was surprisingly good at pinning opponents to the boards. Not usually what you think of when you consider physical play, but Lidstrom was extremely adept at tying players up when the situation called for it (and doing so without getting penalized, for the most part).

Lidstrom was incredible at body positioning , as was most of the Detroit defensemen were. Lidstrom learned at the skates of Larry Murphy, Chris Chelios , Slava Fetisov, Igor Larionov among others. It was something that Bowman and the Wings preached from day one.

 

[ted2019]

Scott Stevens?

Robinson wasn't a headhunter or had the freedom to pick his spots like Stevens did. Robinson was above board about most things.

 

[ted2019]

Hahaha I just love your quote, but no you are not stupid to see Robinson this way, he was really so intimidating, just ask the Broad Street Bullies and Dave Schultz. Robinson is my favorite Montreal Canadiens defenseman and the greatest in team history for me even ahead Harvey.

I agree with you, Stevens was a feared hitter but not so much as a fighter, Lindros was more feared fighter than him.

Stevens was an above average fighter against players that were smaller then him. If they were even or bigger in size, he wasn't as good.

 

[ted2019]

According to hockeyfights.com, Robinson had 24 NHL fights. Potvin had 16. Bourque had 17. Lidstrom had zero. Scott Stevens had 111!

Stevens was really wild when he was with the Capitals. He would fight at the drop of a hat.

 

[overg]

Just to put Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin up for a more generalized overview for those wondering:

Isn't there at least one defensive performance stat which also shows Bourque was at the very least close to effective (if not actually better) as Lidstrom in his own zone? Seems like I've seen it cited several times in the past few years. Something along the lines of goals against or adjusted goals against while on the ice. If someone has quick access to such a stat and could post it for these three, that might help complete the picture.

If I'm remembering the stat correctly it basically showed that Bourque was much closer to Lidstrom's level of defense than Lidstrom was to Bourque's level of offense. Which I think many already suspected, but this just gave some numerical credence to it.

Taking everything into consideration, I think Bourque is the clear best of this trio. He's not massively superior in any particular area, but it's one of those death by a thousand cuts situations, where his strengths are just a little bit stronger across the board, and his weaknesses just a little less weak. If you're a pure peak type of voter, you could go with Potvin over Bourque. Or if you're super high on comparing a player to his direct peers (e.g. Norris trophy counting) you could go with Lidstrom over Bourque. Finally, those super high on team success (Cup counters), could go with both Potvin or Lidstrom over Bourque. But I suspect for most, Bourque should be a narrow, but decisive, choice for the highest placement amongst the three.

As between Potvin and Lidstrom, that would seem to depend entirely upon how much you weigh peak versus longevity. Potvin clearly has the peak, Lidstrom clearly has the longevity. The majority appears to believe that Lidstrom's peak is closer to Potvin's than Potvin's longevity is to Lidstrom's, so Lidstrom gets the nod. Not that I'm a voter, but that's where I'm currently at.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Robinson wasn't a headhunter or had the freedom to pick his spots like Stevens did. Robinson was above board about most things.

Maybe you missed the context here but we were talking about INTIMIDATION factor which Stevens had obviously. Both were feared in different way.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Isn't there at least one defensive performance stat which also shows Bourque was at the very least close to effective (if not actually better) as Lidstrom in his own zone?

I'd like to see that stat so I know not to use it in the future...

 

[ted2019]

Just to put Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin up for a more generalized overview for those wondering:

Norris Finishes: (1st through 5th place finishes)

Bourque
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

Lidstrom
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

Potvin
1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

-Bourque's top end and consistency is absolutely amazing. Especially considering he played during the same period as Potvin and Lidstrom as well as prime Chelios, Coffey, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens, Langway, Howe, Murphy, etc, etc.

Hart Record: (1st through 10th)

Bourque
2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8

Lidstrom
4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Potvin
2, 4, 7, 7, 9, 9, 9,

-Bourque edges Potvin especially considering he played in the same era as prime Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidstrom lags but the closer we get to present day the less respect Dmen seem to have gotten in Hart voting.

AS Finishes:

Bourque
1st team = 13 times
2nd team = 6 times

Lidstrom
1st team = 10 times
2nd team = 2 times

Potvin
1st team = 5 times
2nd team = 2 times

-Bourque dominates again. Potvin well behind the other 2.

Post Consolidation VsX:

Bourque = 75.3
Potvin = 74.3
Lidstrom = 69.7

-No real gap here. All were very good offensive players from the back end but Ray and Denis a bit more so than Lidstrom.

Scoring Finishes Among D (1st through 5th place)

Bourque:
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5,

Lidstrom
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5

Potvin
1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5

-Lidstrom's top end looks the best, but he also didn't face the same prime offensive Dmen as Bourque did. Ray's consistency here is just another feather in his cap.

Adjusted +/-

Bourque = +586 (1st place all time regardless of position)
Lidstrom = +253
Potvin = +253

-Just another metric RB dominates.

Power Play Usage:

Bourque = 88%
Potvin = 87%
Lidstrom = 71%

Penalty Kill Usage:

Bourque = 58%
Potvin = 53%
Lidstrom = 53%

-Bourque was counted on more than the other from a special teams standpoint, a good bit more than Lidstrom.

Do you have the chart for the special teams usage by chance?

 

[ted2019]

Maybe you missed the context here but we were talking about INTIMIDATION factor which Stevens had obviously. Both were feared in different way.

Correct and I mentioned that Robinson did everything above board, as Stevens didn't as much.

 

[overg]

I'd like to see that stat so I know not to use it in the future...

Hehehe, it caught me by surprise when I first saw it. Canadiens1958, do you know what I'm talking about? I have some memory of you talking about it at some point. Or anyone else for that matter, as I think I've seen the point raised at least a few times by different HoH posters.

Don't get me wrong, Lidstrom is my second favorite player of all time.* I just don't think he's got a strong case against Bourque.

*Yzerman is my favorite player, who tends to run into the same issues of just being slightly outdone when compared to Sakic. Bummer for me. But that's an issue for a later round.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Correct and I mentioned that Robinson did everything above board, as Stevens didn't as much.

I don't know what you are trying to prove but I think that I know Larry Robinson very well since he is my all time favorite Montreal Canadiens defenseman by the way.

 

[overg]

Lidstrom was incredible at body positioning , as was most of the Detroit defensemen were. Lidstrom learned at the skates of Larry Murphy, Chris Chelios , Slava Fetisov, Igor Larionov among others. It was something that Bowman and the Wings preached from day one.

Don't forget Brad McCrimmon, who was there to influence Lidstrom at the start of his career. Or Paul Coffey, who I think had a massive influence on how Lidstrom ran a power play. Lidstrom just had an embarassment of riches of older great defensemen to to learn from. To his credit, he took those lessons to heart and surpassed them all.

 

[seventieslord]

Results of polls of NHL coaches and players 1971-1994:

Some of the finishes are ties.
Not including instances of a player receiving a single vote (which Messier in particular did a lot of).

1971 coach's poll:
Mikita - 2nd best on faceoffs

1974 coach's poll:
Mikita - 1st best on faceoffs, 1st best playmaker, 1st smartest player
Potvin - 1st best rookie, 3rd best young player

1976 coach's poll:
Mikita - 1st best stickhandler, 1st smartest player, 2nd best on faceoffs, 3rd best playmaker
Potvin - 2nd "1st player to build a team around," 2nd best young player, 3rd best bodychecker, 3rd best defensive defenseman,

1979 coach's poll:
Mikita - 3rd best on faceoffs
Potvin - 1st best bodychecker, 3rd "1st player to build a team around," 3rd most natural ability, 5th hardest shot

1981 player's poll
Potvin - 1st best offensive defenseman, 2nd best wrist shot, 2nd hardest hitter
Bourque - 2nd best young player

1984 coach's poll:
Potvin - 2nd best bodychecker, 2nd best bodychecker
Bourque - 3rd hardest shot

1989 Hockey News poll of players, coaches, and officials:
Bourque - 2nd hardest hitter, top 4 best defensive defensive defenseman, top 6 frequent diver, top 7 best shooter
Messier - 1st hardest hitter, 1st best cornerman, HM for strongest player

1990 player's poll:
Bourque - 2nd best offensive defenseman, 3rd best all-around player, 4th "to start a franchise," 5th best defensive defenseman
Messier - 1st best all-around player, 2nd best skater, 2nd toughest to defend against, 3rd "to start a franchise"

1993 coach's poll:
Bourque - 2nd best defensive defenseman, 2nd best offensive defenseman, 2nd smartest player, 4th best shot

Jan 1994 coach's poll:
Bourque - 1st best defensive defenseman, 2nd best offensive defenseman
Jagr - 1st best stickhandler

May 1994 coach's poll:
Bourque - 1st best defensive defenseman, 1st best PP point man, 1st "player you hate playing against"
Messier - 3rd best on faceoffs, 4th best power forward
Jagr - 4th best power forward

All info from this thread: Player Intangibles - resource

Also, from a 1974 poll of NHL correspondents from around the NHL and published in the 1974-75 Hockey Almanac:

Hardest hitter: Denis Potvin, 13th
Best playmaker: Orr (24), Mikita (21), Clarke (12)
Best stickhandler: Mikita (27), Orr (27), Perreault (24)
Team leader: Clarke (50), Orr (23), Mikita (8)
Most Natural Talent: Orr (53), Perreault (20), Potvin (7)
Smartest player: Orr (29), Mikita (20), Clarke (15)
Best on faceoffs: Clarke (39), Mikita (28), Sanderson (14)
Best rookie: Potvin (34), Lysiak (29), Salming (22)

Mikita, post-prime, 2nd best playmaker, best stickhandler, 2nd smartest, 2nd best on faceoffs, 3rd best team leader.
Potvin, rookie, best rookie, 3rd most natural talent, beginning to earn a reputation as a hitter.