MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,810
- 16,548
Keon and Richard were very similar players playing in the same era.
... But Richard was more than just a bit clearly better.
Keon and Richard were very similar players playing in the same era.
... But Richard was more than just a bit clearly better.
Keon and Richard were very similar players playing in the same era.
Keon and Richard were very similar players playing in the same era.
i think fedorov's problem is he was so visually gifted that he gets overly penalized for his inconsistency, because a guy who skates like that, with that obvious hockey sense, shooting ability, etc. should never finish behind modano in scoring, let alone for every season from '97 to 2003.
To be fair, Modano had all those attributes as well (elite skating ability, hockey sense, shooting ability) and also had size.
Forsberg had a better career, but Lindros was the better player before getting brained.
...maybe if this was the Top-100 Hockey Players of 1994-1996 list.
It's strange how Fedorov was legitimately a fantastic player who tends to be overrated at the same time. People talk like he was 1994 Fedorov all the time, but he took way too many nights off. I guess his better consistency in the playoffs erases that for a lot of people.
He actually didnt take that many nights off. Its something that has grown out proportion here on HFboards because people constantly goes to the extremes when debating players.
I'm one of the people that often recognizes how players are characterized on here.. but the truth is Fedorov often left you wanting more, especially on the offensive side, for a guy of his ability.
Leaving you wanting more is not indicative of taking nights off. No Red Wing forward scored more points than him besides Shanahan who needed almost a full season of games to be ahead by 74 points. Thats just what the Wings system was. No forward was in a position to dominate in scoring. Kozlov is a great example of this. He went from being a .90ish PPG player to .60ish in one season. And I can assure you that Fedorov had more defensive responsibilities than him.
Im fairly certain that his PPG would be better if A) him and Bowman didnt screw around and B) if he wasnt the constant main defensive guy on his lines tasked with shadowing while still providing offense.
Don't you find it weird that the season after Bowmans retirement Fedorov jumped back up to being a PPG+ player again?
There's definitely something to this. It was more about ice-time and opportunity with Fedorov. Bowman loaded him up with ice-time in '94 partly due to Yzerman getting injured and he just ran with it. Lewis gave him a bit more rope as well in '02-03 like you said and he had a great season.
The only way to reason with this Leafs fan is to point at Gilmour. Why didn't Dougie/Killer play every year like he did in '93 and '94? Was he lazy and/or shouldn't that have "left people wanting more" the rest of his career? Go to adjusted stats over their careers and you'll notice both had two big offensive years. The two are very similar in this regard yet no one says those types of things about Gilmour.
The playoff R-on/off numbers for Fedorov were interesting. It seems his team let him down on a few occasions, while he was surprisingly average compared to his teammates when they did win. For those that can remember, was he Bowman's centre of choice against opponent top lines, or did this fall more to Yzerman?
@overg to be honest I had never heard that Fedorov had a rep as a diver.
Are we really in immediate peril of advancing Brett Hull this Round?! My count on un-nominated players ahead of Br. Hull was reduced last Round. It now stands at 33. At least we didn't nominate anyone south of him, so my last-place Vote is secure.
No, they just recognize that Gilmour would sulk and quickly get traded.
Most times, the answer really was "both of the above," because Bowman preferred to roll his lines rather than straight up line match. Having said that, there were times when Bowman went for a more head-to-head match-up against an ultra-elite center, and on those occasions it was often either Fedorov matching up or a line stacked with both Yzerman and Fedorov. So to the extent the Wings went for a "top line match-up," it would probably be fair to say Fedorov was their guy. But most of the time (especially in their successful playoff runs), the Wings went with a steady four line rotation instead of a specific match-up.
Fortunately, I don't think this reputation stood the historical test of time, having largely been subsumed by the idea that Fedorov was an underachiever for much of his career. But the diving thing was played up quite a bit by rival press, and somewhat weirdly, ESPN, during the late 90's and early 2000's.
I don't get your dislike for Hull.
741 goals - 4th all time
103 Playoff goals - 4th all time
0.584 career goals per game 8th all time
Strong playoff resume overall - with some clutch moments
Strong international resume overall - clutch as well
20 NHL seasons (or 18 if you take out low games played) - very decent longevity, and very consistent producer overall throughout
I can go on with scoring finishes and a lot more.
I just don't get it. You should really try and make a case for why he's so low, or why you have so many others ahead of him. I know he's somewhat 1 dimensional - but he was great at that 1 dimension and we've already ranked a lot of other 1 dimensional players too.
Lindros was better. He was also made of glass. Never mind his concussion issues, everything fell apart on that guy, from shoulders and knees to even a freak collapsed lung.Both Forsberg and Fedorov were smarter players than Lindros with higher on ice awareness. The biggest reason Lindros lacks in longevity is because he couldn't play a full season in his prime to save his life.
Kovalev's fans would agree with you.My theory is that "diver" was basically a shorter-form for "skilled european".
I also never heard the diver thing with Fedorov. Forsberg on the other hand...
Fedorov simply doesn't play dirty. So he receives less punishment,
but he does dive every
once in a while like every smart player to help his team just not as often as
Forsberg or Jagr.
poor Pronger getting a little knock
on his helmet for another Detroit penalty giing the Blues a 5-3 for
the BEGINNING of the third??? The blues were diving all night. Isn't
this the same team who CRYED endlessly about Fedorov diving a mere two
years ago????? Guess you guys ahve learned not only how to play the
Red Wings style of hockey
While I can see the point of Keenan's tactic (not that I approve), I
think his choice of targets is ludicrous. I mean, of all people to
accuse of diving, why Sergei Fedorov? The guy hardly goes to the ice
when there is a legitimate penalty, let alone an "iffy" one. He made
the diving comment after seeing Fedorov go down after Manson's slash.
Now apparently Keenan also thinks Fedorov is the biggest idiot in
hockey too. For what kind of player takes a dive, and writhes around
in fake agony when HIS TEAM IS ON THE POWER PLAY, WITH FULL POSSESION
OF THE PUCK?!?!?!
If we're tossing embellishing in with diving, there is no match for
Fedorov.
He waits until the paddles are charged and ready before he'll admit
to the trainer that he's even alive. Barnaby's first one off the
bench.
Just for fun, here is my
all-NHL diving first team:
Goal: Hasek (Pretty easily, although Belfour can certainly flop around as
well)
Fwds: Forsberg-Modano-Barnaby (Modano still gets my vote for MVD (diver),
and as much as I love Foppa, and as much real abuse that he takes, even with
my Av colored glasses on I have to acknowledge that I've seen him embellish
on a few occasions)
Defense: Chelios-Niedermayer (Just another dirty trick in Chelios' bag chalk
full of 'em, remember when Milan Hejduk almost crippled him twice in the
same playoff period even though he hardly made contact?)
Coach: Scotty Bowman, the master at getting officials over to the bench to
listen to his whining. Hey Kerry Fraser, please get out of Scotty's front
and center pocket.)
I like the avs but yes Foresberg is a real diver
fedorov dives, and that's pretty obvious to all except die-hard redwings
sh> fans. if he keeps it up, he may go after louganis' records...
Actually - a few of the die-hards probably have to admit it.
Abusing Jon Casey is nothing to get excited about! I'm just interested
in seeing what Eric Lindros and the Flyers do to Fedorov and the rest of
the divers. Philly has the mean streak to knock the Russian line out of
the finals in game one.
Larionov's high stick is being a true sportsman? Konstantinov's continuous
stick work is being a true sportsman? Fedorov diving is being a true
sportsman?
: >Does Federov take many dives ?
:
: No. Not more than any "good Canadian kid".
Yeah, let's not confuse Europeanism with diving. Claude and Mario
Lemiuex are two the worst divers around. Fedorov, I wouldn't call a
diver, but Kozlov certainly is, as is Kovalev. That doesn't mean there
aren't as many Canadian, Swedish, Finnish and American divers. The point
is that diving is dispicable and there's too much of it going on...on all
teams by all nationalities (thought the Kovalev, C. Lemieux and Kozlov
examples are front and centre now).
Kovalev's fans would agree with you.