Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[ted2019]

I don't think you're gonna get a lot out of that, frankly...I'd entertain it, but the difference between Lemieux and Harvey is pretty drastic...

Trying to find a way to see if Harvey can break the vaulted top 4.

 

[ted2019]

Orr was still more overpowering than Gretzky for the simple reason that Orr did everything at a legendary level. If Orr was a centre, Wayne may still have the higher numbers, but not by as much as you'd think. It may have been Orr's numbers he'd have threatened, certainly not Espo's.

However, if Wayne was a defenseman he'd be a train wreck... perhaps he'd be on a Phil Housley level at best. Orr was the best offensive AND best defensive defenseman. He could skate better than anybody, shoot better (or nearly better), pass better, plus he hit, fought, blocked shots and was just plain dominant in every facet.

If this is about "the best" (as I think it is) as opposed to the longest, most complete career, then I can't see how anybody who's ever watched hockey would pick Gretzky over Orr. It's all about the paradigm you're using.

I also heard a Queen say once that if she had 2 balls that she would be King.

 

[VanIslander]

We can wholeheartedly disagree.
There are always guys lobbying from the extremes. But there are also guys in the middle who could be swayed by reasons.

This thread has me thinking more positively about some players, less about others.

Lots of things to consider.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Orr was still more overpowering than Gretzky for the simple reason that Orr did everything at a legendary level. If Orr was a centre, Wayne may still have the higher numbers, but not by as much as you'd think. It may have been Orr's numbers he'd have threatened, certainly not Espo's.

However, if Wayne was a defenseman he'd be a train wreck... perhaps he'd be on a Phil Housley level at best. Orr was the best offensive AND best defensive defenseman. He could skate better than anybody, shoot better (or nearly better), pass better, plus he hit, fought, blocked shots and was just plain dominant in every facet.

If this is about "the best" (as I think it is) as opposed to the longest, most complete career, then I can't see how anybody who's ever watched hockey would pick Gretzky over Orr. It's all about the paradigm you're using.

Nope.

That was Doug Harvey

 

[MXD]

You are right to a degree. I, however, am inclined to cut slack to dynasty teams that lost a playoff here and there. 84 Islanders, 86 Oilers, etc. If a team loses a playoffs, then comes back to win two more Cups, or if a dynasty team doesn't have it in them to win another one, it's a little better in my eyes than a team that won one and never won again. If it makes sense.

...That's some very generous slacking. I mean, we're litterally talking about 4 in 6 vs. 2 in 3.

 

[VanIslander]

I haven't heard any arguments so far (maybe I missed some) for a high ranking of Harvey or Beliveau.

I need convincing that Beliveau is any better than all unlisted centers even (eg., Esposito).

Interestingly, cross-positionally... Beliveau over Roy? *shrug* I hadn't ever tried to compare those two so directly.

 

[The Macho King]

Too much snark, not enough substance.

Vote 1 is for the top 4. Let's get to it.

 

[ted2019]

Do we take into account defensive play of forwards?

If we will later (Nighbor, Fedorov, etc) then how about now.

Gordie Howe deserves some credit for the many, many accounts of his complete game. For example, Bowman says he was excellent defensively. Shall we profile his greatness without the puck? Will it make some difference?

If you want to account defensive play from forwards, wouldn't this knock Mario a peg or 2 down? The same could be said for the Gretzky fella also. Would this also mean that Beliveau should be looked at harder, maybe even top 4? Also Hull later on in his career became more of a 2 way player. Quote:

"Up to now we've been defense conscious. We've been worrying too much about Howe-the Howe thing was becoming a monster. So we put Hull on him and now Howe has to worry about Hull-and Bobby has become a fine two-way hockey player​

 

[bobholly39]

Without sidetracking to hard. I was fairly surprised by the top 10. Hasek and Crosby were in my top 10 and I really thought at least one of them would be eligible for the first vote.

Agreed me too - i expected to see both in the top 10 (Hasek was 11 for me, but still expected to see him). I still say the point is mostly moot as I expect them both to be present by next round - which is what matters. If they're not - then it's a problem.

 

[VanIslander]

Vote 1 is for the top 4. Let's get to it.

It's Monday afternoon. The voting will be next weekend.

 

[The Macho King]

It's Monday afternoon. The voting will be next weekend.

I meant the discussion aspect. We've been doing foreplay for the past two months. I want to go deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

 

[VanIslander]

Looking at Orr vs. Lemieux,...

It's funny how many Gretzky vs. Lemieux and Orr vs. Gretzky discussions have been had... yet I can't ever recall a Lemieux vs. Orr discussion before the topic was broached earlier in this thread. Some really interesting comparisons and questions have been raised about these two injury-afflicted careers.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Looking at Orr vs. Lemieux, Mario's career is closing the gap I'd presumed.

It's funny how many Gretzky vs. Lemieux and Orr vs. Gretzky discussions have been had... yet I can't ever recall a Lemieux vs. Orr discussion before the topic was broached earlier in this thread.

Someone tried and then it got lost in the Gretzky/Orr infighting

 

[ted2019]

Orr Hart Competition (Top 5)

67 - Distant 6th
68 - Mikita, Beliveau, Hull, Orr, Howe
69 - Esposito, Beliveau, Orr, Berenson, Howe
70 - Orr, Esposito, Berenson, Mikita, Park
71 - Orr, Esposito, Hull, Keon, Plante
72 - Orr, Dryden, Esposito, Ratelle, Hadfield
73 - Clarke, Esposito, Orr, Dryden, Perreault (would lose even combing him and Esposito)
74 - Esposito, Parent, Orr, Clarke, Esposito
75 - Clarke, Vachon, Orr, Parent, Lalfeur

Gretzky Hart Competition (Top 5)
80 - Gretzky, Dionne, Esposito, Lalfeur, Gare
81 - Gretzky, Liut, Dionne, Bossy, Trottier
82 - Gretzky, Trottier, Bossy, Stastny, Hawerchuk
83 - Gretzky, Peeters, Savard, Langway, Howe
84 - Greztky, Langway, Trottier, Middleton, Bourque
85 - Gretzky, Hawerchuk, Lindbergh, Langway, Bouque
86 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Coffey, Vanbiesbrouck
87 - Gretzky, Bourque, Liut, Lemieux, Gilmour
88 - Lemieux, Fuhrr, Gretzky, Yzerman, Savard
89 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Roy, Mullen/Chelios
90 - Messier, Bourque, Hull, Gretzky, Lafontaine
91 - Hull, Gretzky, Belfour, Bourque, Larmer

Then after 12 straight seasons in the top 5 Gretzky disappears from hart ballots until 98.

Naturally this sort of breakdown completely ignores what each player accomplished in a given season so needs a heaping help of salt.

I'll play along.
ORR: 10 players from that list will be in the top 50 in ours.
GRETZKY: 11 players from that list will be top 50 players

Really, none of this settles anything.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'll play along.
ORR: 10 players from that list will be in the top 50 in ours.
GRETZKY: 11 players from that list will be top 50 players

Really, none of this settles anything.

I didn't expect it to, it just suggest that Orr's competition at Hart was not any more difficult than Gretzky's.

And given that Gretzky actually managed to beat the field routinely in a given year...take from that what you may

 

[MXD]

I didn't expect it to, it just suggest that Orr's competition at Hart was not any more difficult than Gretzky's.

And given that Gretzky actually managed to beat the field routinely in a given year...take from that what you may

Positional bias against D strikes again.

 

[overg]

It's Monday afternoon. The voting will be next weekend.

I'm quite sure most if not all voters are more than familiar with the following. But for others reading this thread who might be new to NHL history, here's an extremely quick overview of why the Big 4 is "the Big 4." I'd fully expect these and other possible top 4 contenders to be extensively fleshed out over the next week. Sorted by the order they appeared in the HoH Top 70 of all time list from 2009.

Gretzky: Smashed almost every scoring record in existence, he's held 61 official NHL records. The all time leader in goals, assists, and points, he wracked up more assists than any other player in NHL history has points. Was a four time Stanley Cup champion, with a great reputation for outstanding play in the playoffs and international competition. Very good longevity, leading both the 1980's and 1990's in NHL scoring.

Orr: revolutionary defenseman, and only person in history to win the scoring race (twice) from that position. Easily considered the greatest offensive d-man of all time, was also one of the best defensive-defensemen of his era. Vies with Gretzky as having the most dominant peak in hockey history. Won 8 consecutive Norris trophies as the NHL's best defenseman, best in league history.

Howe: Most famous for his longevity, Howe was top 5 in league scoring *20* consecutive times. Most players, even stars, don't even play in the league that long. If anything, that stat undersells Howe, who also brought legendary fierceness to the table, considered one of the strongest, toughest, and meanest players to ever play the game. What many don't realize is that Howe also had a peak unrivaled by anyone outside of the big 4 . . . winning scoring titles by margins almost equal to Lemieux.

Lemieux: perhaps the most visually impressive forward in history, a giant of a man with hands as soft as a surgeon. Lemieux truly looked like a man playing amongst boys on the ice, seemingly toying with defenders and goalies and scoring at will. Overcame cancer and missing 2 months to still win the scoring title by 12 points in 1993 may be one of the most impressive performances in sports history. An offensive machine who scored at a pace no player in history other than Gretzky has even sniffed.


These blurbs vastly undersell just how great each of these four players were, but I figure they provide a decent overview of what each of these players was about.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Positional bias against D strikes again.

How do you suggest we counter the positional bias?

Again I didn't make any claims that weren't factual about that data.

 

[VanIslander]

Excellent post by overg ^^^^^^ (two slots above).

Well said, nice overview.

Make sure you don't miss it!

We all should 'like' it, eh?

 

[MXD]

How do you suggest we counter the positional bias?

Again I didn't make any claims that weren't factual about that data.

... Mentally?

And I'm totally aware that your list was factual in nature. It's just that, I don't think we can use this list without any caveat.

 

[ResilientBeast]

... Mentally?

And I'm totally aware that your list was factual in nature. It's just that, I don't think we can use this list without any caveat.

There are massive caveats especially since you would need to consider the field on a seasonal basis instead of overall like I half did.

A small side problem the more I think about it is Esposito beating Orr in voting frequently. From those more knowledgeable about the 70s was that justified?

 

[solidmotion]

Orr should've had more Cups, while Howe simply could not have.

in 51 and 53 detroit dominates the regular season and howe laps the field offensively, leading in goals, assists and points. in both years they lose in the first round to a sub-.500 team. howe's numbers are alright but i am curious what the stories are there.

 

[MXD]

in 51 and 53 detroit dominates the regular season and howe laps the field offensively, leading in goals, assists and points. in both years they lose in the first round to a sub-.500 team. howe's numbers are alright but i am curious what the stories are there.

'51 : Gordie Howe scored 4. Sid Abel scored 4. The reminder of the Red Wings scored 4. In 6 games. And that includes Ted Lindsay.
'53 : Terry Sawchuk crapped the bed.

EDIT : And for 1951, it's not only about goals. Abel and Howe tallied, together, 14 points (7 each). The reminder of the Red Wings (which included not only Lindsay and Kelly, but also the otherwise reasonably productive Jimmy Peters, Marty Pavelich, George Gee, Metro Prystai and the somewhat post-prime Gaye Stewart) tallied ... 15 ! 5 of them coming from D-Men Leo Reise, who never put up huge offensive numbers in the first place.

 

[DannyGallivan]

6 Pages in and you've yet to make an argument for why Orr is superior to Gretzky. All you've done is say he's a more complete player, break down his individual skills/talents, and talk about the eye test. If you want to actually have a discussion and comparison - you need to make the effort to bring up worthy discussion points.

Gretzky is above Orr because in my opinion there are 5 main categories worth considering, and I believe Gretzky is ahead in all of them (or at worst, tied in 1 of 5, and ahead in 4):

Playoffs
Peak
Prime
International Play
Career

Playoffs - Net Advantage Gretzky. 2 smythes, but he should arguably have 5 (83, 84, 87). He's had many more great runs than Orr, and his best runs were arguably better too. In the recent playoff project Gretzky very easily ranked ahead of Orr - so unless you have an argument to the contrary, i assume you'll agree.

Prime - 9 harts, 11 Ross (yes I count 1980) - and if you include asterisks it's 13 (peak Lemieux beat him twice - typically we put asterisk in those cases). Orr has a very very strong prime - but advantage Gretzky. He was the better forward more often than Orr was the better defender - and he was the better overall player more often than Orr. Playoffs is also a component of prime - which helps tilt the odds in Gretzky's favor.

International - easily Gretzky again. More opportunities maybe - but that's not Gretzky's fault.

Peak? Well - you can argue Orr here (but actually make an argument - don't just say "hey what if Orr was a center") - i'd be curious to see those comparisons. Since length and consistency are a component of peak - i tend to again favor Gretzky here. But it's close.

Career - well considering Orr scores exactly 0 outside of peak/prime due to his unfortunate early retirement, this is again Gretzky. Gretzky has a very strong career outside of his peak/prime years.

So the scoreboard is Gretzky 4 - Orr - 0 and 1 tie (peak).

Now make an argument to have Orr above Gretzky.

Peak/Prime (they're pretty much the same thing, aren't they?)

Well you've already conveniently ignored Orr's 8 straight Norris Trophies since Gretzky isn't eligible, so I'll give you that and say that Orr's two Art Ross Trophies as a defenseman (totally without peer) and this two Hart Trophies (something exceptionally rare among defensemen) may even exceed what Gretzky did. After all, Orr won one award (Art Ross) that virtually disqualifies defenders - TWICE (and it's an award that doesn't go by subjective votes). He also won an MVP award that has historically all but ignored defenders. By the way, if you want asterix, then put it beside Gretzky's Hart over the likes Hawerchuk, Liut, Peeters and some other players (unless the MVP is not for the Most Valuable to his team. It should be Most Outstanding Player, then Gretzky would likely have just as many yet Orr would likely have more).

Winner: Orr

Playoffs

Again, revisionist history with your "Gretzky should have had 5 Conn Smythes". He didn't though. Both players had two Conn Smythes, although the Oilers were a superior team to the Bruins of the 70's.

I'll give Gretzky a narrow edge there.

International

Orr is 1 for 1 for tournament MVP awards internationally. However, Gretzky was also dominant. Yet, you are right, Orr didn't have any opportunities, really. If we aren't counting Norris Trophies, then perhaps we shouldn't count International play for the same reason - lack of opportunity.

Category disqualification.

Career

A default win by Gretzky.

Complete Game

Sorry, but that also needs to be a category. If not, tell that to all those who use that argument later in the voting.

Orr.

So I have it 2 wins each. This is consistent with my stance that there is very little separating these two players.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Imperfect analysis but I think this is every time one of the "big 4" received any Hart votes (from HR) and a teammate beat them in voting

Bobby Orr Hart Trophy Voting vs Teammates
69 - Esposito
73 - Esposito
74 - Esposito

Wayne Gretzky Hart Trophy Voting vs Teammates
88 - Fuhr

Gordie Howe Hart Voting vs Teammates
51 - Tied with Kelly
54 - Kelly
56 - Kelly
65 - Ullman

Mario Lemieux Hart Voting vs Teammates
Never