Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[ResilientBeast]

In other words if you could actually write. Get it never your fault.

Shocking it took this long for you to get openly hostile, god forbid I make a mistake

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting idea about the voter percentages, my next question then would be from the list of defencemen Orr was beating for the Norris were any of them truly deserving of more Hart attention? Outside of Park the transitional group in the late 60s-early 70s is not a particularly strong group. Then the Montreal trio and Potvin arrive in the late/mid 70s and then we move into another strong age of defenders.

So Serge Savard, a junior contemporay of Orr beats Orr for the 1969 Conn Smythe but gets lumped as a mid seventies arrival.

Whose fault is this error?

 

[VanIslander]

There are two hockey achievements that impress me more than any other, one by Orr and the other by Gretzky.
Orr - a d-man winning the Art Ross.
Gretzky - 50 goals in 39 games. I only recently picked my jaw off the floor from that one.

For me, things that stagger me:

• Gretzky's 16 seasons of 1st in NHL assists.
• Howe's 20 consecutive top-5 NHL scoring.
• Bourque's 15 Norris finalist seasons.

You don't have enough fingers to count all the great 7-year peaks. But so few refuse to wane and instead continue to shine brightly year by year by year well beyond the shimmer of a dynasty period or early career peak.

 

[Iceman]

I’m hoping the Lemieux delegation will join the party soon. Since it seems for the most part people are pretty locked in on their top 2.

I’d also be interested if someone has an argument for Howe being in the top 2

Howe pretty much blows most players out of the water as far as consistency goes, we know that but I think Howe's peak gets underrated way too often because of the more easily digested story line about his sturdiness and longevity that he is always remembered for. Does Orr really have him so beat on peak that whatever Howe did for the last 15 years of his career doesn't matter? Howe was probably a better playoff performer too if one really wants to go there, but that would make it sound like the other was an average playoff performer but the truth be told, they were among the best in their respective times.

What stands out with Orr in particular is his dominance in relation to his defensive peers but when you look at Howe's competition overall it's pretty staggering to see his offensive dominance during his peak years. His Hart Trophies are nothing to sneeze at either considering his tough competition.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So Serge Savard, a junior contemporay of Orr beats Orr for the 1969 Conn Smythe but gets lumped as a mid seventies arrival.

Whose fault is this error?

He didn't get voted for anything after that until 75 so he wasn't exactly who I was referring to and I remember him more a part of the mid 70s group of Montreal Canadiens. But sure I made a mistake happy?

By all means if I make a mistake let me know, don't need to be rude about it.

 

[Sentinel]

Peak, yes. Prime, highly debatable. Best goalie over a seven-year span as opposed to best defenseman over a seven-year span.

Accomplishments? Are you sure about that?

Hasek wasn't just the "best goalie over 7 year span." He was in the talks for "the best goalie in history" over those seven years. Bourque, well, I don't think anybody ever called him that. I don't even remember anybody calling him "the best defenseman since Orr", or something to that extent... that accolade usually went to Fetisov.

Accomplishments... Harts, Vezinas/Norrises, Cups all benefit Hasek.

Bourque is becoming seriously overrated here.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shocking it took this long for you to get openly hostile, god forbid I make a mistake

Response to your first shot.

 

[DannyGallivan]

For me, things that stagger me:

• Gretzky's 16 seasons of 1st in NHL assists.
• Howe's 20 consecutive top-5 NHL scoring.
• Bourque's 15 Norris finalist seasons.

You don't have enough fingers to count all the great 7-year peaks. But so few refuse to wane and instead continue to shine brightly year by year by year.

I also want to mention Lemieux's pace, coming back from radiation treatment of all things, to catch and pass Lafontaine for the Art Ross.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think if we are going to take a fine tooth comb to orr's 1968 norris, which fair enough, the same should be taken to bourque's rookie year first team all-star placement.

that first team all-star in his first and last season, 22 years apart, is a nice soundbyte and is technically true. but while bourque made the first all-star team over salming and schoenfeld, he also finished 4th in norris voting that year, behind those two and robinson.

 

[Canadiens1958]

He didn't get voted for anything after that until 75 so he wasn't exactly who I was referring to and I remember him more a part of the mid 70s group of Montreal Canadiens. But sure I made a mistake happy?

By all means if I make a mistake let me know, don't need to be rude about it.

Conn Smythe winner who outplays Orr is not a candidate?

Overlooking two broken legs changed perceptions.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Conn Smythe winner who outplays Orr is not a candidate?

Overlooking two broken legs changed perceptions.

The voters didn't seem to consider him one.

He also wasn't healthy which I'm sure played a part.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Is someone out there making the argument that Wayne missed out on Selke trophies that I'm missing?

No. Nice diversion.

 

[VanIslander]

i think if we are going to take a fine tooth comb to orr's 1968 norris, which fair enough, the same should be taken to bourque's rookie year first team all-star placement.

that first team all-star in his first and last season, 22 years apart, is a nice soundbyte and is technically true. but while bourque made the first all-star team over salming and schoenfeld, he also finished 4th in norris voting that year, behind those two and robinson.

I've never heard that soudbyte. Who has ever referenced that?

Yeah, Raymond joined the NHL as a 19 year old and was 4th in Norris voting behind three guys who were in their prime (27, 28, 28 years old). The following season the sophomore was again 4th in Norris voting, behind 29-year-old Robinson, 27-year-old Potvin and a one-year-wonder 24-year-old Carlyle.

I skip past his great rookie and sophomore seasons and focus on his subsequent 15 Norris trophy finalist seasons, against a murderers' row of all time greats, as I profiled earlier on this quickly-growing thread!

 

[The Macho King]

No. Nice diversion.

You seem to have a perspective with a lot of background. And that's great.

I would love for you to contribute instead of glib, one sentence hot-takes.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Hasek wasn't just the "best goalie over 7 year span." He was in the talks for "the best goalie in history" over those seven years. Bourque, well, I don't think anybody ever called him that. I don't even remember anybody calling him "the best defenseman since Orr", or something to that extent... that accolade usually went to Fetisov.

Accomplishments... Harts, Vezinas/Norrises, Cups all benefit Hasek.

Bourque is becoming seriously overrated here.

The one issue I have, that hasn't been really fleshed out to my knowledge is the domestic comparisons between 70's and 80's Russian hockey and the NHL. Yes, Fetisov had some brilliant showings against North American players but overall we're talking smaller sample size tournaments. I just can't get behind the Russian domestic leagues competing with the best teams in the 1980's NHL. I just can't. But then again, nobody has really sold me the other direction.

Fetisov came over at what, age 30 or so. I give him a lot of leeway because of the crazy transition it had to be for a USSR player and person coming over to Canada and the USA. Not just hockey wise, but culturally, even more so IMO. I remember bits and pieces of his time with NJ but more of his with Detroit where he was certainly a sturdy player, good, to say the least, but by that point he was in his mid to late 30's.

Was Fetisov a guy that missed time due to injuries in Russia? Looking at his NHL career it would seem he spent quite a bit of time on the shelf. Would he have survived 80 games a year in the NHL over a typical career length? IDK.

I have Fetisov right around Larry Robinson. It's tough for me to put him any higher without knowing how he would have fared over 80 games a year in the NHL, which has always been the top league in the world, often by a massive margin.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The one issue I have, that hasn't been really fleshed out to my knowledge is the domestic comparisons between 70's and 80's Russian hockey and the NHL. Yes, Fetisov had some brilliant showings against North American players but overall we're talking smaller sample size tournaments. I just can't get behind the Russian domestic leagues competing with the best teams in the 1980's NHL. I just can't. But then again, nobody has really sold me the other direction.

Fetisov came over at what, age 30 or so. I give him a lot of leeway because of the crazy transition it had to be for a USSR player and person coming over to Canada and the USA. Not just hockey wise, but culturally, even more so IMO. I remember bits and pieces of his time with NJ but more of his with Detroit where he was certainly a sturdy player, good, to say the least, but by that point he was in his mid to late 30's.

Was Fetisov a guy that missed time due to injuries in Russia? Looking at his NHL career it would seem he spent quite a bit of time on the shelf. Would he have survived 80 games a year in the NHL over a typical career length? IDK.

Given how the Soviets were forced to train, I'd guess he was probably pretty gassed by the time he made it to North America. He'd spent 11 months out of the year for a decade plus training.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Head-spinning data. Obviously I'm in the Orr camp, and his 1970 season was the most mind-boggling to me.

There are two hockey achievements that impress me more than any other, one by Orr and the other by Gretzky.
Orr - a d-man winning the Art Ross.
Gretzky - 50 goals in 39 games. I only recently picked my jaw off the floor from that one.

i neglected to note that orr scored 76 points more than the next highest scoring defenseman in both 1970 and 1971.

76 points, of course, would have been by far the highest scoring season by a defenseman of all time.

as that golden age of 1970s defensemen emerged, orr never led the league by less than 40 points for the rest of his career, topping park by 44, lapointe by 47, park again by 40, and in his last season potvin by 59.

and, one more head-spinning orr stat: he was the first player to ever put up six consecutive 100 point seasons. no one other than gretzky ever got more than six (but gretzky of course had thirteen).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I've never heard that soudbyte. Who has ever referenced that?

Yeah, Raymond joined the NHL as a 19 year old and was 4th in Norris voting behind three guys who were in their prime (27, 28, 28 years old).

i'm not dissing bourque at all. obviously, the guy is an 18 year old rookie, no one expects him to be the second best defenseman in the league.

but for real? i've heard that soundbyte a million times on this forum. first team all-stars 22 seasons apart is practically the go-to talking point for bourque's longevity.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I have Fetisov right around Larry Robinson. It's tough for me to put him any higher without knowing how he would have fared over 80 games a year in the NHL, which has always been the top league in the world, often by a massive margin.

I may have him too low, as he made my top 50 but barely. I too had the same issue when it came to fully realizing Fetisov.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think there is a *very* good argument against Mario there. Wayne less so - he had to fight through an incredibly impressive dynasty to win, and after that they won 4 of 5 - which I think is just fine. His LA teams kinda sucked, so I don't knock him at all for their lack of production.

Honestly, even with Mario - it's not like he had any bad playoffs (maybe 94?), and I think the two he won gives him enough cover for the playoffs to not be a mark against him. I guess it's a little different for Orr/Howe because there was less competition (in both instances, at least early - basically only the other 06 teams). And with both, it's not only that they didn't win more, it's that they got bounced from the first round too often.

Islanders were not an impressive dynasty. Below dynasty RS performance.

Mario in 1993. Kindly explain what he was doing in OT of game 7 on Volek's series winning goal.



Eye test.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Islanders were not an impressive dynasty. Below dynasty RS performance.

Mario in 1993. Kindly explain what he was doing in OT of game 7 on Volek's series winning goal.



Eye test.

Building your case to put Harvey in the top four?

 

[Canadiens1958]

You seem to have a perspective with a lot of background. And that's great.

I would love for you to contribute instead of glib, one sentence hot-takes.

As stated to another poster you reap what you plant.

Misrepresent my posts and I fire back. This was in specific response to your Selke comment.

 

[The Macho King]

Islanders were not an impressive dynasty. Below dynasty RS performance.

Mario in 1993. Kindly explain what he was doing in OT of game 7 on Volek's series winning goal.



Eye test.

Is this where we distill entire careers into one play?

And the Isles regular season performance doesn't rate a lick for me - they played hard when it counted. They went to five straight Cup Finals. That's what they played for.

And also - yeah, Mario was a bad/indifferent/lazy defender. That's one of the two biggest knocks on him (the other being taking games off). That's why, despite his impressive offense, he doesn't even rate as a contender for the top 3 to me.

 

[VanIslander]

Why talk about Fetisov and Robinson now? Is someone comparing them to the top 4?

There are so many considerations that could go into the first vote next weekend (for the top 4). This thread is already rich in aspects.

More comparisons and research references on the top 10 guys would be awesome!

 

[The Macho King]

As stated to another poster you reap what you plant.

Misrepresent my posts and I fire back. This was in specific response to your Selke comment.

Which was itself in response to a one line post about Orr playing "200 feet".