Top 10 defensemen

[Galactico]

Ignoring the whole definition of the Hart thing, supporting personnel has always had a skewing influence on point totals for forwards, let alone defenseman. Taking that into consideration (especially when the production is fairly equal at the moment, while the gap between their supporting players are massive) isn't punishing someone.

This thread is not about the Hart trophy, it is about the best defenseman in the league.

 

[DavidHasselhoffsFist]

I’m not getting into the who’s better, Makar or Hughes debate but I think if I were to make a list I would have Orlov cracking the bottom of it. I know he’s not putting up huge points totals but I feel like he has a solid defensive game.

 

[Jordan Belfort]

It's a rich tapestry of shitposting

Exact same thing the thread I made turned into. Some insane takes on there.

My crack at the top 10 below

Makar

Hughes

*massive gap*

Dahlin
Haiskanen
Fox
Werenski
Morrisey
Nurse
Reilly
Mcavoy

 

[Grifter3511]

Exact same thing the thread I made turned into. Some insane takes on there.

Totally! Did you see the OP's ridiculously biased take on Mackinnon while offering zero evidence to support his claim? It was pretty damn wild.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Best Dman on Oilers now is probably Ekholm. Debatably Nurse.


No way in hell Bouchard is the best Dman. He's regressed bigtime this year. Nurse is a world better.

 

[rea]

Why do you guys bicker about whose at the top when it's a subjective answer? Also the basis of the topic was who are the top 10 dmen, not whose the best overall. Needless to say, but those 2 are at the top and you can sprinkle in whoever after.

Based on this year for me it's in no particular order after Hughes and makar:

Hughes
Makar

Morrisey
Werenski
Heiskanen
Chabot
Fox
Dahlin
Josi

And I'm cheating with the last spot cuz thereve been alot of good dmen so they should get their due and one of them I guess fills the 10th lol

Hedman
Walman
Carlson
Pionk
Sergachev


Also, the idea people have about what makes a defenceman good isn't the same as it was before. The point is to stop goals when you're on, and create goals at the same time. Being offensive shouldn't negate their value.

Puck possession nowadays is huge, so players like Hughes and Makar etc, who control the puck majority of the time they are on the ice, does that not stop the other team from scoring? Sounds like defence to me.

If you're trying to declare who the best dman is based on old logic of physical, shutdown, block everything in sight, clear front of the net, sorry this is a new era and it's a different game than it was 20 yrs ago. The reason there were defensive dmen recognized is because the rules were diff, you could murder ppl out there, hold, clutch, grab to shut down, u didn't need to control the puck, that was the forwards to deal with.

Thats my opinion of it all. As you were

 

[Raistlin]

I find it tiresome to debate these few Avs fans on Hughes vs Makar, they've had their minds cemented in that one is forever better than the other since their rookie year. Hughes is going to have one more Norris than Makar at the end of the year, maybe they will say all the PWHA voters are Canucks fans or some other excuse. But for the rest of the hockey markets, they will know who's been improving year after year on all facets of his game and who has to rise to the challenge of his closest peer.

 

[Salva Mea]

Makar
Hughes

Heiskanen
Hedman
Morrissey
Josi
Fox
Sanderson
Werenski
Carlson

 

[Shareefruck]

This thread is not about the Hart trophy, it is about the best defenseman in the league.

Err yeah, which is exactly why I said "Ignoring the whole definition of the Hart thing" and gave an argument that has nothing to do with what Hart is based on, but instead how to evaluate a defenseman in isolation. (it's an argument about natural production inflation, not relative value/importance)

You should instead be telling that to the other people whose argument I'm "ignoring".

 

[John Mandalorian]

Makar isn’t in the same universe as Hughes this year for the Hart. Aside from the fact that Hughes dominates when he is on the ice vs when he’s off, let’s look at the top 3 point producers from each team:

Canucks:
1. Hughes - 42pts
2. Pettersson - 28pts
3. Garland - 27pts

Avalanche:
1. MacKinnon - 57pts
2. Rantanen - 52pts
3. Makar - 45pts

Q. Hughes is the LEADER in scoring for his team by 14 points!!!!! It’s absolutely ridiculous that Hughes only trails Makar by 3 points with 2 games in hand. Makar is playing with way better linemates and it’s not even close.

Couldn’t help but notice you used 5 exclamation marks to emphasize your point. What made 4 not enough but 6 too much?????

 

[Maurice of Orange]

1. Cale Makar
2. Quinn Hughes
3. Miro Heiskanen
4. Josh Morrissey
5. Roman Josi
6. Jaccob Slavin
7. Zach Werenski
8. Rasmus Dahlin
9. Victor Hedman
10. Adam Fox
11. Gustav Forsling
12. Noah Dobson
13. Devon Toews
14. Shea Theodore
15. Charlie McAvoy
16. Evan Bouchard
17. MacKenzie Weegar
18. Dougie Hamilton
19. Chris Tanev
20. Moritz Seider

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Exact same thing the thread I made turned into. Some insane takes on there.

My crack at the top 10 below

Makar

Hughes

*massive gap*

Dahlin
Haiskanen
Fox
Werenski
Morrisey
Nurse
Reilly
Mcavoy

You have Reilly in top 10?!

He’s not even considered the best defensemen on the leafs this year. Let alone top ten in the league.

1. Cale Makar
2. Quinn Hughes
3. Miro Heiskanen
4. Josh Morrissey
5. Roman Josi
6. Jaccob Slavin
7. Zach Werenski
8. Rasmus Dahlin
9. Victor Hedman
10. Adam Fox
11. Gustav Forsling
12. Noah Dobson
13. Devon Toews
14. Shea Theodore
15. Charlie McAvoy
16. Evan Bouchard
17. MacKenzie Weegar
18. Dougie Hamilton
19. Chris Tanev
20. Moritz Seider

One of the better lists imo.

Fox is still being rated way too high imo. He’s dropped off quite a bit. Not a top 5er anymore imo.

 

[kcunac]

Top D play 25min or more a night. They can’t play all the time. QH is the best 5v5 and PP is the league. Not putting him on PK is just good coaching. If Makar is better at PK and Quinn is better at 5v5 and PP, then Quinn is still the better D-man.

Here is a comparison of the two D-man’s 5v5: Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick Highlights:

CM QH
CF% 54.4 58.36
FF% 53.41 57.48
GF% 55.77 65.00
XGF% 57.0 57.36
HDCF% 55.0 55.24
Off Zone
Starts. 155 90

And PP: Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
Highlights:

CM QH
CF% 86.72 88.03
FF% 84.31 86.14
GF% 92.0. 83.33
XGF% 86.73 89.25
HDCF% 89.86 85.71
Off Zone
Starts. 58 38

Stats this year. QH ahead on both, though it’s closer on PP than 5v5

 

[ginomini]

Makar, Hughes, Fox, Heiskanen, McAvoy, Morrissey, Hedman, Dahlin, Faber, Slavin.

Off the top of my head, probably forgetting someone.

 

[Bizzare]

Top D play 25min or more a night. They can’t play all the time. QH is the best 5v5 and PP is the league. Not putting him on PK is just good coaching. If Makar is better at PK and Quinn is better at 5v5 and PP, then Quinn is still the better D-man.

Here is a comparison of the two D-man’s 5v5: Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick Highlights:

CM QH
CF% 54.4 58.36
FF% 53.41 57.48
GF% 55.77 65.00
XGF% 57.0 57.36
HDCF% 55.0 55.24
Off Zone
Starts. 155 90

And PP: Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
Highlights:

CM QH
CF% 86.72 88.03
FF% 84.31 86.14
GF% 92.0. 83.33
XGF% 86.73 89.25
HDCF% 89.86 85.71
Off Zone
Starts. 58 38

Stats this year. QH ahead on both, though it’s closer on PP than 5v5

Makar was also stapled to Mack last year… I assume it’s the same this year. While Hughes plays much more with the 3rd and 4th lines in comparison.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Makar, Hughes, Fox, Heiskanen, McAvoy, Morrissey, Hedman, Dahlin, Faber, Slavin.

Off the top of my head, probably forgetting someone.

josi, but good list.

 

[Grifter3511]

Couldn’t help but notice you used 5 exclamation marks to emphasize your point. What made 4 not enough but 6 too much?????

Some things just can't be taught.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think if anything, the only reasonable argument for Makar over Hughes overall is still "He's proven it in the playoffs." While under normal/closer circumstances, you tend to roll your eyes at those types of arguments, I think ultimately in this case, that is kind of valid. Hughes has admittedly not had a playoffs yet where he's even close to as effective as he currently is (in fact, every one he's had he's been targeted and successfully exposed for a glaring weakness-- 1st time defensively, 2nd time physically), while Makar has had dominant stretches-- I don't see that as dismissible, really.

That said, I don't see a reasonable way (outside of untrue spun narratives) to think that Makar has had a better regular season either of the past two years. Outside of offensively (and even then this year, it's harder to argue that when you consider support), it hasn't really been that close.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

Ah yes, another year where the Kings have one of the lowest GAs in the league, while simultaneously have none of the best Ds

The system works!

 

[Canucks LB]

Quinn Hughes won the Norris last season and has taken another step this season, he’s literally reached another level.

He’s absolutely ridiculous

 

[Weezeric]

The WOWYs for Makar and MacKinnon are quite something…

 

[John Mandalorian]

The WOWYs for Makar and MacKinnon are quite something…

What’s your end game with this? Speak now or go ugly early by having Avs fans remind you of team success you haven’t experienced in decades.

 

[Jared Dunn]

Some guys like Werenski obviously sticking out this year that could be argued but choosing some guys who have done it longer

Makar
Hughes
Heiskanen

Fox

McAvoy
Josi
Hedman

Dahlin
Salvin
Morrissey

Trying not to weight this year too heavily but:

Hughes
Makar

Fox

McAvoy
Hedman

Werenski
Josi
Dahlin
Morrissey
Carlson

Top two have clearly separated themselves from Fox IMO, who himself has separated from the rest of the pack. McAvoy is having a bad year but he and Hedman are the only two others I think are consistently in the next group. For the last 5 slots I think it rotates based off of who's playing better at the time so I weighed this season a bit more. Some names that I've seen that are no doubt good players but that I am lower on than consensus: Weegar, Heiskanen, Theodore. Doughty would've been in the last group over probably Morrissey or Dahlin if he wasn't hurt

I otherwise like your list but any list that doesn't include one of Hughes, Makar, Fox, or Heiskanen becomes null and void to me... I genuinely can't even imagine an argument for Heiskanen not being top 5, let alone top 10

 

[Icebreakers]

Im a Canucks fan, and Im comfortable putting Makar at the top purely based on playoff performance. Regular season wise its a wash.

We havent seen a playoff performance like Makar's conn smythe year. Even last year, he was a beast.

Its different when you need to play like youre the man when it matters. When all the pressure of the world is on you. Thats how you become "great".

Its close though.

Its like between 2014-2019. Lebron never won a single MVP. We still knew he was the best player in the world by far.

 

[johan f]

Lists on HF are useless, why?

Most here are zoomers with no knowlegde about hockey.

None knows hockey.

None are humble, refusing listening to others.

The rest knows nothing.